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2017/02/04 16:25:55
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
Lord Kragan wrote: Even recently there's been big changes: 5-7 years ago Necrons went to terminator-esque figures to aegyptian space-robots, shifting warriors from being terrifying figures to tragic figures (like you've said). About 3-4 years ago Tau went from an ideallistic and naive faction to an Orwellian state. About 2 years ago, the sisters' incident with the GK was changed into a more palatable thing and Kaldro Draigo moved on to be Space Sisifus to be an even worse sue than what Ward-haters had envisioned. About two years ago or so, Ork technology went from making things "improbable" possible to just "it gives the final push to properly working, but the skilled mechs do 99% of the work", oh and Ghazzghul went to Octarius there too.
If you go and look book by book you'll see changes. Same goes, for example, with the black templars, which now are believed to be barely a thousand, rather than something in the ballpark of 3-6 thousand. Iyanden's backstory too suffered changes in the supplement, and IIRC the Sentinels of Terra did some changes to the IF lore too.
You're not describing advancement of the plot. You're describing retcons.
40K has been a series of retcons for over a decade now, not advancements.
Marine Centurions? They've always been there. Just off camera!
Grey Knight Dreadknights? Yep. They're always had those. We just never talked about them before.
Helbrutes? That's just what Chaos Dreads are. Didn't you know?
Space Santa? Logan's had the sled in the shop for a few years, tinkering on it whenever he could. It's not new though!
Necron Dynasties? They were never soulless mute warriors enslaved to Star Gods. Those initial reports were wrong. What's right is that they've always been over the top drama freaks who live in pseudo-Egyptian kingdoms.
On and on it went, with each new unit getting shoved into the fluff like it was always there. And you know what? That was fine. It was pretty silly sometimes (the Centurion being perhaps the most blatant example), and sometimes it was race-defining (Newcrons), but it's the way you introduce new things when your game is a setting, and not a story.
These recent changes are not the same. These are dramatic swings and changes to the setting. Guilliman's return isn't written off as a "By the end of the Scouring only one Primarch remained, Roboute Gilliman, and he has fought for the Imperium ever since!", no, it's a development. A change to the setting, and a fething dramatic one at that.
40K is not a story of change. It is a setting where new elements are slotted in like new documents for a filing cabinet. To torture the analogy further, GW are now adding a new filing cabinet, and a lot of us are worried that once they've finished filling it they're going shred the documents in the first filing cabinet.
Get it?
Which is why I used the word: CHANGES. Look at my post. How often do you see the word story advancement? I speak of changes, which this is.
What I get is this: based on a completely different story you're thinking everything is going to go equally the same to said story and you're not going to like it. With extremely solid proof on the matter, dare I say, on the matter. And no matter how many "no tanks" one-liners you want to make, you have no proof on the matter. Instead of thinking: hey it's not going to happen, your traing thought is deadset in: IT'S HAPPENING!! Which is fine and dandy but ultimately it brings to the same place as the alternative mindset (nowhere) but with an added dose of vitriol.
I for one don't mind this changes, nor am afraid of what's to come. Change, after all, is part of nature. (and my second army).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/04 16:29:29
2017/02/04 16:27:04
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
Most of the changes you've described happened more than a decade and a half ago It's pretty obvious that I wasn't referring to RT era 40k nor 2nd edition. The only real semi recent change you've listed was the one to the Necrons Background, and I'm sure you do know that the Necrons role in the setting is a lot less central than the one of the IOM
And filling some parts of the universe or reintroducing some old armies is not the same thing as moving the time line forward and changing some of the most canonicals stuff in the setting. But then, I have no doubt that you also know that and you're arguing for the sake of it.
Yet you still benefit from changes that happened. If we listened to you back then we'd have none of the things we do now.
What an absurd thing to say. I never said I was opposed to GW filling up the 40k universe and introducting new races. In fact, I'm all for it.
Lord Kragan wrote: Even recently there's been big changes: 5-7 years ago Necrons went to terminator-esque figures to aegyptian space-robots, shifting warriors from being terrifying figures to tragic figures (like you've said). About 3-4 years ago Tau went from an ideallistic and naive faction to an Orwellian state. About 2 years ago, the sisters' incident with the GK was changed into a more palatable thing and Kaldro Draigo moved on to be Space Sisifus to be an even worse sue than what Ward-haters had envisioned. About two years ago or so, Ork technology went from making things "improbable" possible to just "it gives the final push to properly working, but the skilled mechs do 99% of the work", oh and Ghazzghul went to Octarius there too.
If you go and look book by book you'll see changes. Same goes, for example, with the black templars, which now are believed to be barely a thousand, rather than something in the ballpark of 3-6 thousand. Iyanden's backstory too suffered changes in the supplement, and IIRC the Sentinels of Terra did some changes to the IF lore too.
You're not describing advancement of the plot. You're describing retcons.
40K has been a series of retcons for over a decade now, not advancements.
Marine Centurions? They've always been there. Just off camera!
Grey Knight Dreadknights? Yep. They're always had those. We just never talked about them before.
Helbrutes? That's just what Chaos Dreads are. Didn't you know?
Space Santa? Logan's had the sled in the shop for a few years, tinkering on it whenever he could. It's not new though!
Necron Dynasties? They were never soulless mute warriors enslaved to Star Gods. Those initial reports were wrong. What's right is that they've always been over the top drama freaks who live in pseudo-Egyptian kingdoms.
On and on it went, with each new unit getting shoved into the fluff like it was always there. And you know what? That was fine. It was pretty silly sometimes (the Centurion being perhaps the most blatant example), and sometimes it was race-defining (Newcrons), but it's the way you introduce new things when your game is a setting, and not a story.
These recent changes are not the same. These are dramatic swings and changes to the setting. Guilliman's return isn't written off as a "By the end of the Scouring only one Primarch remained, Roboute Gilliman, and he has fought for the Imperium ever since!", no, it's a development. A change to the setting, and a fething dramatic one at that.
40K is not a story of change. It is a setting where new elements are slotted in like new documents for a filing cabinet. To torture the analogy further, GW are now adding a new filing cabinet, and a lot of us are worried that once they've finished filling it they're going shred the documents in the first filing cabinet.
Get it?
Which is why I used the word: CHANGES. Look at my post. How often do you see the word story advancement? I speak of changes, which this is.
What I get is this: based on a completely different story you're thinking everything is going to go equally the same to said story and you're not going to like it. With extremely solid proof on the matter, dare I say, on the matter.
Let's not pretend that all changes have the same impact. Introducing Ogre kingdom in WHFB was a change, but its impact was vastly more limited than the changes AOS brought.
Arguing that the changes to the Necron fluff has as much impact as the re-introduction of the Primarchs makes you look silly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/04 16:29:13
lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039
2017/02/04 16:30:19
Subject: Re:The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
Ultimately what will be the effects of introduction of Guilliman: will he punch the chaos hordes back? He'll close the eye of terror, erecting a wall and making the black legion pay for it in blood? He and his loyal brothers tried in the heresy, ultimately failing. Reallistically speaking, he's acually a strong change, yes, but he's effects were shown clearly during the events of HH. The return of a Primarch is being overrated, specially since Vulkan did so (In the M32, but nevertheless did) and his contribution to the war of the beast was.... what? Think about it and you'll realise that, while strong, the effect is nowhere close to what people are thinking of.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/04 16:33:39
2017/02/04 16:35:38
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
MrVulcanator wrote: This is very exciting. I'm so glad that they're finally bringing an uncorrupted Primarch back! Wonder if he'll become the new acting Emperor.
I doubt it. I don't think Guilliman has the psychic mojo to be on the Golden Throne. It was Magnus, Malcador or the big E himself who were the only folks capable of doing that.
MrVulcanator wrote: This is very exciting. I'm so glad that they're finally bringing an uncorrupted Primarch back! Wonder if he'll become the new acting Emperor.
I doubt it. I don't think Guilliman has the psychic mojo to be on the Golden Throne. It was Magnus, Malcador or the big E himself who were the only folks capable of doing that.
Acting Emperor as in person leading the Imperium, not as in sitting on the throne, I assume they meant.
2017/02/04 16:42:16
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
I have wanted a good reason to purchase the Forgeworld Guilliman model ever since it came out. NOW I have a good reason. As others have said, the new Guilliman model looks bad.
MrVulcanator wrote: This is very exciting. I'm so glad that they're finally bringing an uncorrupted Primarch back! Wonder if he'll become the new acting Emperor.
I doubt it. I don't think Guilliman has the psychic mojo to be on the Golden Throne. It was Magnus, Malcador or the big E himself who were the only folks capable of doing that.
You misunderstand, the Corpse Emperor is taking care of the Golden Throne, what I'm saying is that Guilliman could be the acting emperor, as in have the political power without having to sit on the death chair.
"Show me where it says that in the codex!" said Learchus.
"You know brother that I cannot." said Uriel.
MrVulcanator wrote: This is very exciting. I'm so glad that they're finally bringing an uncorrupted Primarch back! Wonder if he'll become the new acting Emperor.
I doubt it. I don't think Guilliman has the psychic mojo to be on the Golden Throne. It was Magnus, Malcador or the big E himself who were the only folks capable of doing that.
You misunderstand, the Corpse Emperor is taking care of the Golden Throne, what I'm saying is that Guilliman could be the acting emperor, as in have the political power without having to sit on the death chair.
Didn't he become the acting emperor for a short period after the big E fell? It would make sense that he would be again...
MrVulcanator wrote: This is very exciting. I'm so glad that they're finally bringing an uncorrupted Primarch back! Wonder if he'll become the new acting Emperor.
I doubt it. I don't think Guilliman has the psychic mojo to be on the Golden Throne. It was Magnus, Malcador or the big E himself who were the only folks capable of doing that.
You misunderstand, the Corpse Emperor is taking care of the Golden Throne, what I'm saying is that Guilliman could be the acting emperor, as in have the political power without having to sit on the death chair.
It's unlikely. The High Lords wouldn't be too happy with a Primarch leading the Imperium. They could comply, but they'd probably be scheming behind Big G's back. The HL didn't even like having a Space Marine, much less a Primarch (The Beast series)
"Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!" - Satsuki Kiryuin, Kill la Kill
2017/02/04 16:50:12
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
As a super space marine model Guilliman Looks alright but it feels all wrong for him. Guilliman is described as handsome in a simple way. Portraying intelligence, and strength. Lacking the severity, and rage inherent in some of his brothers. There is nothing in this model that makes me feel like I'm looking at a handsome thoughtful warrior. His face is hard, ugly and angry.
Then the designs on the armor look more like a chaos model then a space marine. Filigree like that is all over chaos space marines, but Guilliman's takes it up a notch to the point where it feels noisy. The scroll on top of the ultramarine sign on top of the sun is a mess. His armour should be a continued representation of his personality. This is not the armor of a simple elegant man, who views thought and intellect as the keys to victory. The chaotic overlapping designs feel more fit for a madman, then a commander.
If they had released this as a souped up chaos model I would be singing its praises. As it stands I think it is a tone deaf representation of this character. Perhaps the lore will come out and Guilliman will have been changed to better suit this ugly super soldier, but I wish we had gotten a model that better represented Guilliman as he was written originally.
2017/02/04 16:53:15
Subject: Re:The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
Warhams-77 wrote: I am quite happy with the models' details. They are not overly covered with bling. What we get fits the story and is quite conservative
Could somebody take this and change the arm with the plasma pistol to be pointing downards? like he's in the middle of turning around to bear both guns.
The model looks great but i find it way too static for cypher.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
coblen wrote: As a super space marine model Guilliman Looks alright but it feels all wrong for him. Guilliman is described as handsome in a simple way. Portraying intelligence, and strength. Lacking the severity, and rage inherent in some of his brothers. There is nothing in this model that makes me feel like I'm looking at a handsome thoughtful warrior. His face is hard, ugly and angry.
Then the designs on the armor look more like a chaos model then a space marine. Filigree like that is all over chaos space marines, but Guilliman's takes it up a notch to the point where it feels noisy. The scroll on top of the ultramarine sign on top of the sun is a mess. His armour should be a continued representation of his personality. This is not the armor of a simple elegant man, who views thought and intellect as the keys to victory. The chaotic overlapping designs feel more fit for a madman, then a commander.
If they had released this as a souped up chaos model I would be singing its praises. As it stands I think it is a tone deaf representation of this character. Perhaps the lore will come out and Guilliman will have been changed to better suit this ugly super soldier, but I wish we had gotten a model that better represented Guilliman as he was written originally.
I agree and on top of that I don't get the symbolism of the swirlies. They look like flames, but the closest I could think of would a phoenix, guilliman rising out of the ashes of an imperium to save it kind of thing. Nothing related to either him, UM or the imperium.
They just seem to be there for bling. I would have expected him to have more spartan look.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/04 17:01:31
2017/02/04 17:17:00
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
MrVulcanator wrote: This is very exciting. I'm so glad that they're finally bringing an uncorrupted Primarch back! Wonder if he'll become the new acting Emperor.
I doubt it. I don't think Guilliman has the psychic mojo to be on the Golden Throne. It was Magnus, Malcador or the big E himself who were the only folks capable of doing that.
Acting Emperor as in person leading the Imperium, not as in sitting on the throne, I assume they meant.
Not sure if things will have changed by now, but during the Beast series(sometime in M32 IIRC) the head of the high lords was given the title of Lord Guilliman. If he makes it to Terra by 8th ed he will probably want his chair back. But that would tie him up in the administration and politics of the Imperium, making his constant table top adventures even more improbable. I wouldn't be surprised if events keep him from Terra or force him to leave soon after arriving.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/04 17:20:20
2017/02/04 17:24:45
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
The design of all the filigree on the armor makes sense when you look at the Custodes. They are meant to symbolize the majesty of the Emperor, and not the Ultramarines themselves.
Which may seem weird, but all things considered, as the lone Primarch standing... The Imperium of humanity needs him to stand in for the Emperor than just be the leader of the ultramarines. At least until the others show up amd we get the post human oligarchy the traitors always wanted...
insaniak wrote: It doesn't look 'grand' to me. It just looks like a human that's been sculpted in a different scale.
And it's a problem every time he wants to walk through a door.
Making them slightly larger than regular Marines would have still been impressive while maintaining some semblance of practicality. Making them twice the size just shatters suspension of disbelief through being thoroughly impractical and looking stupid.
YMMV, obviously.
I am curious how you feel about all these Marines that are suppose to fit in a Rhino for the last 20 or so years? To me this shouldn't be able to be done. No way they can fit it. Or how a dreadnaught comes out of a drop pod that is made for Space Marines instead and he can't fit in there. They way I see it, the scale will never be correct and it's playing with plastic toy soldiers and you have to suspend disbelief. Nothing is ever to scale. So for me, I don't see what the big deal is. I can see your point of view though if this has been bugging you for the last 20 years about the Rhino issues.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
2017/02/04 17:39:04
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
Carlovonsexron wrote: The design of all the filigree on the armor makes sense when you look at the Custodes. They are meant to symbolize the majesty of the Emperor, and not the Ultramarines themselves.
Which may seem weird, but all things considered, as the lone Primarch standing... The Imperium of humanity needs him to stand in for the Emperor than just be the leader of the ultramarines. At least until the others show up amd we get the post human oligarchy the traitors always wanted...
The custodes filigree looks downright reserved in comparison to Guilliman. The custodes filigree is made of small elegant curving pieces. Their filigree is placed sparingly in appropriate places and does not create the same overly complicated noise of Guilliman. Guilliman is just covered head to toe in thick messy filigree. So much so that none of it stands out, and the whole piece seems muddled.
It is definitely possible to make an armour that both symbolizes the majesty of the emperor, and still accurately portrays the character that is wearing it. I don't think this model does either.
2017/02/04 17:43:55
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
Every time I look at the Giant Blue monstrosity I cannot get the idea of the Futurama heads in jars out of my head.
I think I might get one when they flood ebay if there cheap enough .
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
2017/02/04 17:48:01
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
And yet still isn't nearly as much of a special snowflake as any of his brothers. My god....he's a tactical genious? The Roman-themed Thrawn of 40K? That's it?
He's downright normal compared to the rest of the genetic and emotional freaks the Emperor made (with an assist from Chaos, granted).
We've got mutants, unknown twins, a psycopathic Batman, the Grim Reaper, Genghis Khan, the viking lord of werewolves, a hedonist, a crazy preacher, etc.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/04 18:24:58
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
2017/02/04 18:24:52
Subject: Re:The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
TheArmorOfContempt wrote: Also all this hating on RG and few people have taken the time to address Grandmaster Generic of the 3rd Brotherhood.
That is true, that guy is technically well done, and would be very cool if he were leading a new Grey Knight release with its own little story, but he is so extremely overshadowed by the awesome hero from ten millennia ago with the massive sword who will rescue mankind and by Guilliman, he doesn't even really get noticed.
2017/02/04 18:39:20
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
Darkseid wrote: Really not a fan of organic looking armor. Luckily there is a FW Gulliman version.
This comment is not directed at your Darkseid, but I have been seeing comments like this a lot of a few sites now.
The thing is, if you can get Forge World then all is fine. What if you can't? For those who can't, now they have another way of getting him now. I always find it funny how we complain, we only think of ourselves, but never think of others. So if it doesn't affect ourselves, all is fine then.
I say we should just be happy now others can order this at their game store now if we like it or not.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
2017/02/04 18:54:22
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
Tsukuru wrote: From the leaks, this armour was made by Cawl, so I guess that explains it being much more ornate / over the top than his original effort...
It is a bit much, but they probably had to make it look different from the FW model.
I don't see why people are getting upset. I think Tsukuru is correct. Cawl could be a good explanation as to why he is taller and bigger.
Well Darth Vader is so much bigger and taller than Anakin Skywalker. Nobody seemed to complain about Darth Vader being too big.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/04 19:00:29
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
2017/02/04 19:02:32
Subject: Re:The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
I can't wait for the book, this event is being such a blessing for me
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/04 19:08:04
"Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!" - Satsuki Kiryuin, Kill la Kill
2017/02/04 19:10:03
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
Alpharius wrote: There is a thread for the Gathering Storm PT 2 - let's keep this one focused on Pt. 3 please - thanks!
I honestly think it would have been easier to have made a thread for the series as a whole. Seriously, we have people talking of pt2 here and people talking of part 3 there.
It's pretty obvious that I wasn't referring to 
Legion: Dark Angels 
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