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 troa wrote:
Crimson, how is it that disheartening? Nothing very out of character is happening. The Eldar do what they must to ensure their race's survival. If they've determined the IoM is no longer the biggest threat, why wouldn't they help set the IoM against that threat? Heck, even if they are the Eldar enjoy sowing conflict to distract people from attacking them.

It is not the behaviour of the Eldar which is the problem.

In any case, I just wanted to vent, and this is not a discussion that will go anywhere. If people do not see how these events will lead to inevitable shift in the tone of the setting, then I will not be able to explain it to them (trust me, I have tried.)

 Crimson wrote:

 troa wrote:
Crimson, how is it that disheartening? Nothing very out of character is happening. The Eldar do what they must to ensure their race's survival. If they've determined the IoM is no longer the biggest threat, why wouldn't they help set the IoM against that threat? Heck, even if they are the Eldar enjoy sowing conflict to distract people from attacking them.

It is not the behaviour of the Eldar which is the problem.

In any case, I just wanted to vent, and this is not a discussion that will go anywhere. If people do not see how these events will lead to inevitable shift in the tone of the setting, then I will not be able to explain it to them (trust me, I have tried.)

Desperate times call for desperate actions.

The enemy of my enemy is my meat shield.

 Crimson wrote:
This is all so disheartening. Alien witches resurrecting Primarchs and people are cheering. This is way worse than the infamous Necron fist bump. I have been a fan of 40K since the second edition, and I have never been this worries about the future of the game, not even close. I literally haven't touched a 40K mini since I first heard about this Primarch returning nonsense, and I'm afraid this is just the beginning of dismantling everything that made 40K cool. If we end up with Guilliman as the new Emperor, I'm probably done with 40K for good.

I've only been around 40k since 3.0rd edition, not quite as venerable as you, but I absolutely love all the new stuff and think it is totally fine and fits with the 40k universe. Opinions!!

Allow me to use a picture to save Crimson 1000 or so words...



(I'm aware this isn't technically exactly right, but all the Happy Days ones are poor quality.)

 Crimson wrote:
This is all so disheartening. Alien witches resurrecting Primarchs and people are cheering. This is way worse than the infamous Necron fist bump. I have been a fan of 40K since the second edition, and I have never been this worries about the future of the game, not even close. I literally haven't touched a 40K mini since I first heard about this Primarch returning nonsense, and I'm afraid this is just the beginning of dismantling everything that made 40K cool. If we end up with Guilliman as the new Emperor, I'm probably done with 40K for good.

"So this is how the integrity of 40k's background dies... With thunderous applause."

*edit*

Wrong thread.

Ruin wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
This is all so disheartening. Alien witches resurrecting Primarchs and people are cheering. This is way worse than the infamous Necron fist bump. I have been a fan of 40K since the second edition, and I have never been this worries about the future of the game, not even close. I literally haven't touched a 40K mini since I first heard about this Primarch returning nonsense, and I'm afraid this is just the beginning of dismantling everything that made 40K cool. If we end up with Guilliman as the new Emperor, I'm probably done with 40K for good.

"So this is how the integrity of 40k's background dies... With thunderous applause."

"If you thought the background had any integrity left, you haven't been paying attention".

There is essentially two camps of Warhammer 40k fans

ones that want the lore to advance, the primarchs to return and all that good stuff


and then those, like Crimson (no offense Crimson) that are conservative, don't want change and want the setting to remain the same for ever.

I'm sorry Crimson, but we have already done that for decades now since the game came out, we needed new spice in the lore

 Kanluwen wrote:

It would explain the sudden spate of books about the Scythes of the Emperor.

Well at this stage in the timeline they would of had enough time to rebuild their strength after Hive Fleet Kraken ate their Fortress World and 90% of the Chapter

LightKing wrote:
There is essentially two camps of Warhammer 40k fans

ones that want the lore to advance, the primarchs to return and all that good stuff


and then those, like Crimson (no offense Crimson) that are conservative, don't want change and want the setting to remain the same for ever.

I'm sorry Crimson, but we have already done that for decades now since the game came out, we needed new spice in the lore

Personally I'd prefer that Black Library be the ones to advance the fluff, not the GW Studio.

Is there going to be a companion novel? I'd much prefer to read about this whole Gathering Storm saga in a proper novel, and not in the truncated poorly written fluff of a Codex.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Is there going to be a companion novel? I'd much prefer to read about this whole Gathering Storm saga in a proper novel, and not in the truncated poorly written fluff of a Codex.

The lack of companion novels does seem a bit strange.

I think there are risks with taking the story forward. There is a danger it becomes a bad cartoon where top knotted villains pop up to be defeated by the heroes month after month. There is a danger that the grandeur of factions like "the Imperium", "The Inquisition", "The Black Legion" etc just become subsumed into the actions and stories of a handful of individuals. That shrinks the setting rather than giving it life.

At the same time though I am glad they are moving forward because it gives something new. I don't understand the attraction of being stuck in amber where nothing changes, mysteries are never resolved, very few named people die and only planets invented for the purpose are won or lost.

LightKing wrote:
There is essentially two camps of Warhammer 40k fans

ones that want the lore to advance, the primarchs to return and all that good stuff


and then those, like Crimson (no offense Crimson) that are conservative, don't want change and want the setting to remain the same for ever.

I'm sorry Crimson, but we have already done that for decades now since the game came out, we needed new spice in the lore

Actually, I'd split it as people who recognise that 40K is a setting, a backdrop, and contains huge quantities of hitherto unexplored material that would allow continued releases for years to come, and those who have.. other ideas.

I stopped regularly playing 40K before some of you all were born. That game resembled nothing like the game that's played today. It went from grim, dark, wink to Grimdark(R). And yet the sun still rises and people still have fun playing the game.

If GW advances the timeline and makes the rules more accessible like AoS then I might be back into 40K. The sun will continue to rise either

i!

Been playing since 88, and seen the lore change so much over the years.. but I bloody love this as a plot piece.. about time the Imperium has a chance to grasp at the daylight.. even if it all backfires down the road.
So aye, not against the idea of Eldar helping out the Humans at all.. and tbh, there have been a good number of potential temp alliances over the years.. this is hardly new.. just the stakes in this one have never been bigger.

I have to admit I am really looking forward to seeing what the rest of the year brings to 40K.

It's kind of good that the Eldar did it rather than the Imperium just going "Oh, we figured it out and he's just back now, yay". Ynnead is unprecedented and it's better, narratively, to use that rather than an easy solution just popping up after 10,000 years (like if Cawl had just magically fixed him with the power of plot armour). It also means that they really owe the Eldar, which I'm sure many are uncomfortable with, and I'm sure "animated by foul xenos magicks" will be a plot hook eventually.

I welcome the plot progression.

When they originally ran the 13th Crusade, nothing really came from it and that was kind of disappointing. So it's pretty cool to see them go back and redo the story and make it actually push things along a little.

 ProtoClone wrote:
I welcome the plot progression.

When they originally ran the 13th Crusade, nothing really came from it and that was kind of disappointing. So it's pretty cool to see them go back and redo the story and make it actually push things along a little.

Didn't they retcon that old 13th Crusade campaign because they didn't like the result with Chaos winning? Kinda ironic that they've done a remake...and had Chaos win again.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 ProtoClone wrote:
I welcome the plot progression.

When they originally ran the 13th Crusade, nothing really came from it and that was kind of disappointing. So it's pretty cool to see them go back and redo the story and make it actually push things along a little.

Didn't they retcon that old 13th Crusade campaign because they didn't like the result with Chaos winning? Kinda ironic that they've done a remake...and had Chaos win again.

Wasn't it more like the 3rd war of Armageddon, where they ended that with 'The war continues'

But with this one they ended with the Chaos forces were pushed back... and now it has continued with them coming back for a 2nd charge (and winning) while several real world years have gone between these campaign events, it has only been a short time in storyline sense (at least by my understanding)

Any word on who the Grey Knight character is? Powers, etc?

He's the head of the Grey Knight Librarius and a newly promoted grand master. Other than that we got nothing so far really.

GodDamUser wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 ProtoClone wrote:
I welcome the plot progression.

When they originally ran the 13th Crusade, nothing really came from it and that was kind of disappointing. So it's pretty cool to see them go back and redo the story and make it actually push things along a little.

Didn't they retcon that old 13th Crusade campaign because they didn't like the result with Chaos winning? Kinda ironic that they've done a remake...and had Chaos win again.

Wasn't it more like the 3rd war of Armageddon, where they ended that with 'The war continues'

But with this one they ended with the Chaos forces were pushed back... and now it has continued with them coming back for a 2nd charge (and winning) while several real world years have gone between these campaign events, it has only been a short time in storyline sense (at least by my understanding)

When 13th Crusade originally ran, Chaos had the winning side. What did they get? A small mention that Cadia had been battered but beat back the crusade.

Don't know if this is a reboot or just Crusade the 13th Part 2 but it's nice to finally have some plot development.

TomWB wrote:
I was very surprised to find that Roboute Guilleman was sculpted by Seb Perpet in the new white dwarf. He's an excellent sculptor!

Then I saw this transformation in the painting guide, where you can see how some bizarre choices about the paint scheme take a perfectly noble Primarchial visage, and turn it into angry Joffrey Baratheon...

Roboute Horror Picture show!
It's astounding time is fleeting, madness takes its toll.

Well GW has changed the fluff many times over the last 20 years, some with it i don't agree with, but in my 40k world the fluff is the way i like it

Tyel wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Is there going to be a companion novel? I'd much prefer to read about this whole Gathering Storm saga in a proper novel, and not in the truncated poorly written fluff of a Codex.

The lack of companion novels does seem a bit strange.

I think there are risks with taking the story forward. There is a danger it becomes a bad cartoon where top knotted villains pop up to be defeated by the heroes month after month. There is a danger that the grandeur of factions like "the Imperium", "The Inquisition", "The Black Legion" etc just become subsumed into the actions and stories of a handful of individuals. That shrinks the setting rather than giving it life.

At the same time though I am glad they are moving forward because it gives something new. I don't understand the attraction of being stuck in amber where nothing changes, mysteries are never resolved, very few named people die and only planets invented for the purpose are won or lost.

If Age of Sigmar is any indication the actual writing of the campaign books will be campy but the overall plot will be solid. The last major story thread ended with a nice mix of wins and losses for the various sides. Perhaps more importantly while the good guys have their superheroes that save the day, the equivalent characters for other major factions do the same for their respective sides (the big bad of chaos in particular crushes everything with no contest wherever he shows up, even killing main good-guy characters to do so).

 Azreal13 wrote:

LightKing wrote:
There is essentially two camps of Warhammer 40k fans

ones that want the lore to advance, the primarchs to return and all that good stuff


and then those, like Crimson (no offense Crimson) that are conservative, don't want change and want the setting to remain the same for ever.

I'm sorry Crimson, but we have already done that for decades now since the game came out, we needed new spice in the lore

Actually, I'd split it as people who recognise that 40K is a setting, a backdrop, and contains huge quantities of hitherto unexplored material that would allow continued releases for years to come, and those who have.. other ideas.

It's no use, Az. Anyone who appreciates having an endless, precariously balanced setting rather than a story focused on less than a dozen characters will soon be self-selected out of the playerbase.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Spoiler:

 Azreal13 wrote:

LightKing wrote:
There is essentially two camps of Warhammer 40k fans

ones that want the lore to advance, the primarchs to return and all that good stuff


and then those, like Crimson (no offense Crimson) that are conservative, don't want change and want the setting to remain the same for ever.

I'm sorry Crimson, but we have already done that for decades now since the game came out, we needed new spice in the lore

Actually, I'd split it as people who recognise that 40K is a setting, a backdrop, and contains huge quantities of hitherto unexplored material that would allow continued releases for years to come, and those who have.. other ideas.

It's no use, Az. Anyone who appreciates having an endless, precariously balanced setting rather than a story focused on less than a dozen characters will soon be self-selected out of the playerbase.

I'm well aware, the content of the posts between the post you quoted and your own shows which way the wind's blowing I think. It's such a shame. Because you get this sort of thinking..

NinthMusketeer wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Spoiler:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Is there going to be a companion novel? I'd much prefer to read about this whole Gathering Storm saga in a proper novel, and not in the truncated poorly written fluff of a Codex.

The lack of companion novels does seem a bit strange.

I think there are risks with taking the story forward. There is a danger it becomes a bad cartoon where top knotted villains pop up to be defeated by the heroes month after month. There is a danger that the grandeur of factions like "the Imperium", "The Inquisition", "The Black Legion" etc just become subsumed into the actions and stories of a handful of individuals. That shrinks the setting rather than giving it life.

At the same time though I am glad they are moving forward because it gives something new. I don't understand the attraction of being stuck in amber where nothing changes, mysteries are never resolved, very few named people die and only planets invented for the purpose are won or lost.

If Age of Sigmar is any indication the actual writing of the campaign books will be campy but the overall plot will be solid. The last major story thread ended with a nice mix of wins and losses for the various sides. Perhaps more importantly while the good guys have their superheroes that save the day, the equivalent characters for other major factions do the same for their respective sides (the big bad of chaos in particular crushes everything with no contest wherever he shows up, even killing main good-guy characters to do so).

You know why TV shows have a shelf life? Or why movie sequels are almost always inferior to their predecessors? It's because if you have to work with a narrative, you either have to offer resolution or keep one-upping previous events. If you don't offer resolution, the audience gets bored and frustrated, if you continue to go bigger, you eventually cross into parody.

GW are already bordering on the latter, if they keep moving things forward (even if this is a single step for now) where can you see the game in 3 years? 10? 40K has lasted 30 years inhabiting, give or take, the same snap shot of time. It might seem exciting to have these long hinted at events actually occur in the fluff and in game, but ultimately what GW have done by moving the narrative forward rather than diving deeper into the universe is start a stopwatch that's going to keep counting down for their customers. What was a sandbox for the gamer and designers to play in is becoming a vector headed towards a conclusion. When your stated aim is to make the best toy soldiers in the world and keep doing it forever, starting your golden goose IP on a journey towards a conclusion isn't the best idea.

Shareholders.

 Azreal13 wrote:

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Spoiler:

 Azreal13 wrote:

LightKing wrote:
There is essentially two camps of Warhammer 40k fans

ones that want the lore to advance, the primarchs to return and all that good stuff


and then those, like Crimson (no offense Crimson) that are conservative, don't want change and want the setting to remain the same for ever.

I'm sorry Crimson, but we have already done that for decades now since the game came out, we needed new spice in the lore

Actually, I'd split it as people who recognise that 40K is a setting, a backdrop, and contains huge quantities of hitherto unexplored material that would allow continued releases for years to come, and those who have.. other ideas.

It's no use, Az. Anyone who appreciates having an endless, precariously balanced setting rather than a story focused on less than a dozen characters will soon be self-selected out of the playerbase.

I'm well aware, the content of the posts between the post you quoted and your own shows which way the wind's blowing I think. It's such a shame. Because you get this sort of thinking..

NinthMusketeer wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Spoiler:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Is there going to be a companion novel? I'd much prefer to read about this whole Gathering Storm saga in a proper novel, and not in the truncated poorly written fluff of a Codex.

The lack of companion novels does seem a bit strange.

I think there are risks with taking the story forward. There is a danger it becomes a bad cartoon where top knotted villains pop up to be defeated by the heroes month after month. There is a danger that the grandeur of factions like "the Imperium", "The Inquisition", "The Black Legion" etc just become subsumed into the actions and stories of a handful of individuals. That shrinks the setting rather than giving it life.

At the same time though I am glad they are moving forward because it gives something new. I don't understand the attraction of being stuck in amber where nothing changes, mysteries are never resolved, very few named people die and only planets invented for the purpose are won or lost.

If Age of Sigmar is any indication the actual writing of the campaign books will be campy but the overall plot will be solid. The last major story thread ended with a nice mix of wins and losses for the various sides. Perhaps more importantly while the good guys have their superheroes that save the day, the equivalent characters for other major factions do the same for their respective sides (the big bad of chaos in particular crushes everything with no contest wherever he shows up, even killing main good-guy characters to do so).

You know why TV shows have a shelf life? Or why movie sequels are almost always inferior to their predecessors? It's because if you have to work with a narrative, you either have to offer resolution or keep one-upping previous events. If you don't offer resolution, the audience gets bored and frustrated, if you continue to go bigger, you eventually cross into parody.

GW are already bordering on the latter, if they keep moving things forward (even if this is a single step for now) where can you see the game in 3 years? 10? 40K has lasted 30 years inhabiting, give or take, the same snap shot of time. It might seem exciting to have these long hinted at events actually occur in the fluff and in game, but ultimately what GW have done by moving the narrative forward rather than diving deeper into the universe is start a stopwatch that's going to keep counting down for their customers. What was a sandbox for the gamer and designers to play in is becoming a vector headed towards a conclusion. When your stated aim is to make the best toy soldiers in the world and keep doing it forever, starting your golden goose IP on a journey towards a conclusion isn't the best idea.

Ah, my apologies. I missed where your preference was right because wargames are TV shows.

I welcome the plot progression, I've been playing since 2nd edition and I think it's a good way for armies to progress, GW as a company need to release new things weather it's units or races in to the game so people buy more products, new and existing customers alike and Adding a new unit to a codex and going "oh we had these all along" seems kind of dumb to me which they have done in the past. No sales, no money, no money, no more games workshop and then we're stuck with a stagnant rule set and trying to get hold of miniatures from eBay.

Nick Fury shouldn't be played by a black man.
Heath Ledger will be a terrible Joker.

Blah. Blah. Blah. We've heard the flailing of purists before.

Would be great if we could get a full 'fallen' list that doesn't require cypher. But I am sure we will get a revised cypher data slate built in this gathering storm.