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Goobi2 wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
Jain Zar basically seems like the only remotely safe way to engage him in melee, given all of that counts as one weapon.

Jain Zar will die to the Smash rule. But the Avatar of Khaine is immune to all his attacks in melee.

...huh. I never caught that.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
Jain Zar basically seems like the only remotely safe way to engage him in melee, given all of that counts as one weapon.

And even then it's a pretty uphil battle, Guilliman will tank 78% of the wounds, while being wounded only a 30% of the time. Statistically speaking, Jain Zar has a 4.4% chances of wounding. Meanwhile guilliman will cause wounds 41.5% of the time, as his WS is still high enough to hit on 4+ even with the malus, wounds on 2+ and will ignore her armor save as he has smash and AP2 stock on his meelee attacks.

So on a second thought, it's not safe... AT ALL.

Yeah, no way she's doing it on her own, I was thinking more 'Jain Zar and Friends' or 'Jain Zar and cheap tarpit blob'.

Goobi2 wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
Jain Zar basically seems like the only remotely safe way to engage him in melee, given all of that counts as one weapon.

Jain Zar will die to the Smash rule. But the Avatar of Khaine is immune to all his attacks in melee.

How's so? If he has immunity to flame weapons note that Guillimann's rules don't specify anywhere he has flaming attacks...

tneva82 wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
Jain Zar basically seems like the only remotely safe way to engage him in melee, given all of that counts as one weapon.

Jain Zar will die to the Smash rule. But the Avatar of Khaine is immune to all his attacks in melee.

How's so? If he has immunity to flame weapons note that Guillimann's rules don't specify anywhere he has flaming attacks...

Isn't the AoK immune to Soul Blaze?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
Jain Zar basically seems like the only remotely safe way to engage him in melee, given all of that counts as one weapon.

Jain Zar will die to the Smash rule. But the Avatar of Khaine is immune to all his attacks in melee.

How's so? If he has immunity to flame weapons note that Guillimann's rules don't specify anywhere he has flaming attacks...

Isn't the AoK immune to Soul Blaze?

Just out curiosity, how goes the ruling regarding D-weapons and the avatar of khaine? Technically it's not a "to-wound" roll, so maybe guilliman has a chance.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
Jain Zar basically seems like the only remotely safe way to engage him in melee, given all of that counts as one weapon.

Jain Zar will die to the Smash rule. But the Avatar of Khaine is immune to all his attacks in melee.

How's so? If he has immunity to flame weapons note that Guillimann's rules don't specify anywhere he has flaming attacks...

Isn't the AoK immune to Soul Blaze?

Just out curiosity, how goes the ruling regarding D-weapons and the avatar of khaine? Technically it's not a "to-wound" roll, so maybe guilliman has a chance.

AoK's Molten Body states he's 'Unaffected by attacks with the Soul Blaze special rule', Guilliman's sword has Soul Blaze, and the Touch Of The Emperor rule (the thing that gives The D on a six) says 'Any attacks with this weapon' in reference to the sword, AoK is fully immune to the D as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Where it says "Concussion", I assume they meant to put "Concussive". Says 'Concussion' on the rules video as well, guess that'll be an expected errata.

opu wrote:


AoK's Molten Body states he's 'Unaffected by attacks with the Soul Blaze special rule', Guilliman's sword has Soul Blaze, and the Touch Of The Emperor rule (the thing that gives The D on a six) says 'Any attacks with this weapon' in reference to the sword, AoK is fully immune to the D as well.

Can he attack unarmed at S6 Ap2?

Why would he be able to attack unarmed at AP2?

 Robin5t wrote:
Why would he be able to attack unarmed at AP2?

Because, as a Monstrous Creature, he has the Smash rule.

I question whether he can attack unarmed at all.

 Robin5t wrote:
Why would he be able to attack unarmed at AP2?

Smash, he's a monstrous creature, remember? If calgar can fist-fight avatars so can roboute >:C

Oh, yeah, so he is. Still had him as infantry in my mind.

In that case... can you actually choose to fight without a weapon? I've never heard of that being a thing.

While we are mostly venting about Guilliman's rules, am i the only one extremely annoyed by the lack of grenades?
Attacking at initiative 1 if he charges an enemy in cover is a little too much to swallow on top of his monstrous creature status....

No, you can not. you must fight with a special close combat weapon if you have one. I guess the Avatar is immune to RG. Interesting. I Guess RG will just have to shoot him to death or rely on smash.

spartiatis wrote:
While we are mostly venting about Guilliman's rules, am i the only one extremely annoyed by the lack of grenades?
Attacking at initiative 1 if he charges an enemy in cover is a little too much to swallow on top of his monstrous creature status....

He has Move Through Cover (from his command traits), didn't that allow you to fight at initiative if you charged into cover.

No, with move through cover you roll 3d6 while moving on difficult terrain and cancel the -2 inches penalty on the charge roll.
Swinging at in. 1 still applies unfortunately

Lord Kragan wrote:

spartiatis wrote:
While we are mostly venting about Guilliman's rules, am i the only one extremely annoyed by the lack of grenades?
Attacking at initiative 1 if he charges an enemy in cover is a little too much to swallow on top of his monstrous creature status....

He has Move Through Cover (from his command traits), didn't that allow you to fight at initiative if you charged into cover.

He has Move through Cover from being an MC, but no MTC simply doesn't slow you down when charging through difficult terrain. In the 'Charging through difficult terrain' section of the rulebook it states: 'If at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain.'

It's not quite like holstering a rifle though, for this chap... witness...

[An epic close combat begins]

Guilliman: "Hold, foe! I must remove my Smashy Gun Glove and Choppy Flame Sword before I fight you, to maximise my chances of rules-lawyering my way to a win!"

Avatar: "THAT IS FINE BY ME. DO CRACK ON."

[Whilst the team of servitors needed to remove parts of Guilliman's armour and sheath his sword do their slow, careful work, the Avatar stabs him repeatedly in the head]

Guilliman: "Oh you cheater..."

Avatar: "THEY SEE ME ROLLIN'. THEY HATIN'." <sashays flamily away>

 cuda1179 wrote:
No, you can not. you must fight with a special close combat weapon if you have one. I guess the Avatar is immune to RG. Interesting. I Guess RG will just have to shoot him to death or rely on smash.

Where has that ever been stated? If I have a Power Fist and a Bolt pistol, I can elect to attack in CC with the bolt Pistol if I want.

What I am questioning is if the only close combat weapon is the fist, do the rules allow you to attack without it.

opu wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
Jain Zar basically seems like the only remotely safe way to engage him in melee, given all of that counts as one weapon.

Jain Zar will die to the Smash rule. But the Avatar of Khaine is immune to all his attacks in melee.

How's so? If he has immunity to flame weapons note that Guillimann's rules don't specify anywhere he has flaming attacks...

Isn't the AoK immune to Soul Blaze?

Just out curiosity, how goes the ruling regarding D-weapons and the avatar of khaine? Technically it's not a "to-wound" roll, so maybe guilliman has a chance.

AoK's Molten Body states he's 'Unaffected by attacks with the Soul Blaze special rule', Guilliman's sword has Soul Blaze, and the Touch Of The Emperor rule (the thing that gives The D on a six) says 'Any attacks with this weapon' in reference to the sword, AoK is fully immune to the D as well.

Yeah...the problem is that if you read the rules for Guilliman, he's not just attacking with the sword. It's a paired set of the Hand of Dominion and Sword of the Emperor.

Spoiler:

 Verviedi wrote:
Has this image been posted already?

Where it says "Concussion", I assume they meant to put "Concussive". Says 'Concussion' on the rules video as well, guess that'll be an expected errata.

More evidence of future proofing, in my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised to see the rules for "Concussive" removed or altered to be different to something called "Concussion".

I mean, the Hand of Dominion is S6 AP2 Assault 3...and Rending.

Rending just makes it so any To Wound roll of a 6 wounds automatically for the Hand of Dominion. I wouldn't be surprised to see Rending get a bit more "oomph" with whatever new rules set they come out with. Rend values in AoS seem to be well received and I could see a modifier to save rolls being in the cards.

Re-read the rules and it is somewhat unclear..
It says the unit is not slowed by difficult terrain. Does this apply to both the -2 and the initiative penalty?
In my group we played it as i described above but on second thought, we might be wrong..

He is attacking with them combined in the 'The Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion', it proceeds to say 'These weapons are used together, using the profile below', of which that profile has Soul Blaze, which would gather that even his Hand has Soul Blaze


Automatically Appended Next Post:

spartiatis wrote:
Re-read the rules and it is somewhat unclear..
It says the unit is not slowed by difficult terrain. Does this apply to both the -2 and the initiative penalty?
In my group we played it as i described above but on second thought, we might be wrong..

Just quick snippet from my other post, 'Charging through difficult terrain' has this:
'all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain'

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
No, you can not. you must fight with a special close combat weapon if you have one. I guess the Avatar is immune to RG. Interesting. I Guess RG will just have to shoot him to death or rely on smash.

Where has that ever been stated? If I have a Power Fist and a Bolt pistol, I can elect to attack in CC with the bolt Pistol if I want.

What I am questioning is if the only close combat weapon is the fist, do the rules allow you to attack without it.

Gone through the entirety of the BRB, searched for 'Close Combat' and 'Melee' and no where does it ever mention that you HAVE to use your actual melee weapon, one could then just assume to be able to use the CC profile of "Strength: User (so 6) AP: - (which would be 2 due to MC status)".
Also in response to the "fist" I assume you mean the 'Hand of Dominion', which unfortunately is a combined profile with the sword so still has Soul Blaze

I can't believe this is a page long discussion about the avatar of khaine which no one has used in years fighting against Guilliman. One of them will die prior to CC via shooting.

You are spot on!
My thoughts as well on the matter but sometimes we love to discuss for discussion's sake only

That could be done nicely in a YMDC thread, mind, no?

I am just glad that Roboute comes with literally all the rules one would need to use him. The other Triumvirates have had the occasional rule with no definitions.

That is STUPIDLY funny
The Emperors sword, Wielded by his son with literally all the special rules know to man....
Cannot be used on an Avatar of Khaine due to the WEAKEST rule on the Sword...

Interestingly, the Victrix Formation obsec rule states 'non-vehicle units'... maybe a change for 8th? no more obsec drop pods/rhinos/land raiders/wave serpents?

Hahaha, can't wait to tell the local Eldar players that,

I need an avatar just to do this to someone

Earth127 wrote:
I need an avatar just to do this to someone

...I think the point here being that, odd as it is, the Avatar will be shot up by the rest of your opponent's army before he becomes a real 'problem' for Guilliman.

unfortunate but not inevitable, I'm not talking competitive play here.