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I'm reading a lot of great ideas here.

They should really try to get back to basics with regards to their attitudes towards basic infantry. These should be the bread and butter! I do think that 40k itself needs an overhaul before the guard can be fixed but the ideas expressed here are steps in the right direction.

Well it would now appear that Catachan is about to get screwed over big time as well as cadia. Rumours lit that a massive void whale is heading straight for it with a large ork waaagh in tow.

So glad I just invested in a platoon of Jungle Fighters after cadia blew up to diversify a bit.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

(Or better yet reverse the obscene power bloat)

Well I disagree.

I want to see 660 models, I want to see real fething Imperial Guard.

If I ever get into that army, I'll have legions of noname nobodies who'll just get crushed in masse because that's their whole purpose in life. (by the way, movement strips are a thing you know.. even in 40k).

I'd rather they don't make the IG more powerful per head than it already is.

Also, I would like their tanks to be shrunk in points and maybe even downgraded a little, so that hey may be more numerous, more "we suck but there's a lot of us".

It doesn't scream "Mechanical Division" when you have about 10 tanks on the table.

Which is great if you're building a diorama, but in the space of a game, it renders things nearly unplayable. Movement trays are fine and dandy until you realize that a lot of 40k maps will involve maps with some wildly varied terrain where trays just can't properly traverse, in addition to shifts in formation to match the situation.

If I ever get into that army

That's the thing. It all sounds fine and dandy, until you actually have to deal with it (or even fight it, which is an absolute waste of 6 hours to get a god damn game in).

Not to mention the gargantuan task of even painting such a force. I spend around 4 hours on each of my Kriegsmen, not including any modifications that have to be made (because I sure as hell am not going to buy each plasma gun from Forgeworld). And as much as I love my little Kriegers, painting too much of one thing can be exhausting, especially if you intend on making them actually look good. Especially when each guardsman is effectively worthless on the actual tabletop.

NivlacSupreme wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Another thing that would really help the Guard is an overall reduction in the game's scale (I'm looking at you, Age of Sigmar!).

Don't. Just DON'T! I invested probably a thousand dollars and 5-7 years into warhammer fantasy. If GW wants to scale down slightly or have a side game that's toned down slightly that's fine. However AoS went way the **** too far in every possible way. I can't even recognize my poor game anymore and they gave no choice to keep playing Fantasy. It was AoS or get out. That's basically what the GW manager said. He said if they don't want to play aos then we don't want you.

Wow. That's...

Even some people at GW HQ still play 8th.

on the other hand, I can understand why the GW manager would limit his gaming tables to people playing "presently supported games"

morgoth wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

(Or better yet reverse the obscene power bloat)

Well I disagree.

I want to see 660 models, I want to see real fething Imperial Guard.

If I ever get into that army, I'll have legions of noname nobodies who'll just get crushed in masse because that's their whole purpose in life. (by the way, movement strips are a thing you know.. even in 40k).

I'd rather they don't make the IG more powerful per head than it already is.

Also, I would like their tanks to be shrunk in points and maybe even downgraded a little, so that hey may be more numerous, more "we suck but there's a lot of us".

It doesn't scream "Mechanical Division" when you have about 10 tanks on the table.

They should bump Conscripts up a smidge and keep them as the option for people who want to drown the enemy in bodies. Meanwhile, regular Guardsmen/Infantry Platoons should be closer to the Solar Auxilia, albeit with slightly worse stats and equipment. It would still mean the Imperial Guard field a fair few more bodies, but both newbies and existing players in larger point games aren't forced to ram human bodies down field like they're Tyranid Gaunts.

I've never seen the Imperial Guard as a horde army. They're somewhere close to one, particularly if you build it that way, but they've always been much closer to a combined arms kit, The problem is that they've ramped the Tau up to such hilarious levels that they're probably struggling to figure out exactly 'what' the Imperial Guard's niche is.

 Arbitrator wrote:

They should bump Conscripts up a smidge and keep them as the option for people who want to drown the enemy in bodies. Meanwhile, regular Guardsmen/Infantry Platoons should be closer to the Solar Auxilia, albeit with slightly worse stats and equipment. It would still mean the Imperial Guard field a fair few more bodies, but both newbies and existing players in larger point games aren't forced to ram human bodies down field like they're Tyranid Gaunts.

I've never seen the Imperial Guard as a horde army. They're somewhere close to one, particularly if you build it that way, but they've always been much closer to a combined arms kit, The problem is that they've ramped the Tau up to such hilarious levels that they're probably struggling to figure out exactly 'what' the Imperial Guard's niche is.

AM has no need for more bodys ... there is not much difference between 100 lasguns and 150 lasguns

 vostroyan second born wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

They should bump Conscripts up a smidge and keep them as the option for people who want to drown the enemy in bodies. Meanwhile, regular Guardsmen/Infantry Platoons should be closer to the Solar Auxilia, albeit with slightly worse stats and equipment. It would still mean the Imperial Guard field a fair few more bodies, but both newbies and existing players in larger point games aren't forced to ram human bodies down field like they're Tyranid Gaunts.

I've never seen the Imperial Guard as a horde army. They're somewhere close to one, particularly if you build it that way, but they've always been much closer to a combined arms kit, The problem is that they've ramped the Tau up to such hilarious levels that they're probably struggling to figure out exactly 'what' the Imperial Guard's niche is.

AM has no need for more bodys ... there is not much difference between 100 lasguns and 150 lasguns

This really can't be stressed enough. Lasguns are horrendously bad. And while it does make for a fun bit of 40k humour, it also makes for some bad gameplay. Every guard squad serves as little more than wound markers for its special weapons, as no matter the number, a lasgun can never be used with effect.

 Fafnir wrote:
Which is great if you're building a diorama, but in the space of a game, it renders things nearly unplayable. Movement trays are fine and dandy until you realize that a lot of 40k maps will involve maps with some wildly varied terrain where trays just can't properly traverse, in addition to shifts in formation to match the situation.

If I ever get into that army

That's the thing. It all sounds fine and dandy, until you actually have to deal with it (or even fight it, which is an absolute waste of 6 hours to get a god damn game in).

Not to mention the gargantuan task of even painting such a force. I spend around 4 hours on each of my Kriegsmen, not including any modifications that have to be made (because I sure as hell am not going to buy each plasma gun from Forgeworld). And as much as I love my little Kriegers, painting too much of one thing can be exhausting, especially if you intend on making them actually look good. Especially when each guardsman is effectively worthless on the actual tabletop.

Movement strips, not trays.
You can always have straight lines of guardsmen and re-arrange them in the field.
Either way, if I played Guard, I would have a solution, because I always find one.

I don't even paint my current army, and clearly I wouldn't paint so many annoying guardsmen, so indeed I can see how expensive or time-intensive it can be.

But still, you don't want to betray the fluff just because "it's too hard".

How do you fix lasguns so that they manage to remain 'weak' and yet manage to actually inflict some damage? I've been pondering that question for years.

Do you give them more shots or do you increase their power? Personally, if they bumped them up to strength 4 whilst keeping them at AP: -, that might make them useful whilst keeping them weak. But I'm just brainstorming.

So I've been thinking. A good start for a more fluffy army would be 3 different FOCs. First is the "Tank Company". 2 HQ slots and 6 Heavy Support. 1 HQ mandatory and 1 Troops mandatory. The only HQ available is the tank commander and all Heavy choices are available, although your mandatory has to be a Leman Russ squad.

Next is the standard "Infantry company". 2 more Troops than a CAD but -1 elites and -1 fast attack. You only need 1 HQ and 1 Troops (so that you can play small games using one large platoon). You aren't allowed more veteran squads than platoons.

Finally is the "Armored Company". No Fast Attack but +1 Heavy Support and +2 Troops. Your only compulsory Troops are veterans and all of your troops have to take chimeras. No footslogging infantry is allowed.

I'm very bad at writing rules so I didn't come up with anything. There would be bonuses.

NivlacSupreme wrote:
So I've been thinking. A good start for a more fluffy army would be 3 different FOCs. First is the "Tank Company". 2 HQ slots and 6 Heavy Support. 1 HQ mandatory and 1 Troops mandatory. The only HQ available is the tank commander and all Heavy choices are available, although your mandatory has to be a Leman Russ squad.

That's basically the Tank Company formation...?

Next is the standard "Infantry company". 2 more Troops than a CAD but -1 elites and -1 fast attack. You only need 1 HQ and 1 Troops (so that you can play small games using one large platoon). You aren't allowed more veteran squads than platoons.

Nope. There's no limitations like that in any other armies, so no.

I've long advocated for a 1:1 ratio of Scouts to SM and things like that, but it just won't work.

Finally is the "Armored Company". No Fast Attack but +1 Heavy Support and +2 Troops. Your only compulsory Troops are veterans and all of your troops have to take chimeras. No footslogging infantry is allowed.

Why would you take away Fast Attacks?

Fast Attack is where Sentinels are. And Sentinels are absolutely 100% fluffy for an Armored Company.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

(Or better yet reverse the obscene power bloat)

Well I disagree.

I want to see 660 models, I want to see real fething Imperial Guard.

Then you play it. I've ran the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company and it just is wildly inflexible and irritating/vexing to play with.

If I ever get into that army, I'll have legions of noname nobodies who'll just get crushed in masse because that's their whole purpose in life. (by the way, movement strips are a thing you know.. even in 40k).

I'd rather they don't make the IG more powerful per head than it already is.

Except they're not powerful. By any stretch of the imagination.

Also, I would like their tanks to be shrunk in points and maybe even downgraded a little, so that hey may be more numerous, more "we suck but there's a lot of us".

It doesn't scream "Mechanical Division" when you have about 10 tanks on the table.

Tanks suck right now, not because of the Leman Russes(which are wildly overpointed as it stands right now), but because of the vehicle rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
How do you fix lasguns so that they manage to remain 'weak' and yet manage to actually inflict some damage? I've been pondering that question for years.

Do you give them more shots or do you increase their power? Personally, if they bumped them up to strength 4 whilst keeping them at AP: -, that might make them useful whilst keeping them weak. But I'm just brainstorming.

A Radium style rule.

6s cause an additional Wound, because of the heat from the laser blast or something like that.

Guard are not defined by massive waves of chaff infantry. That strategy is employed by some Guard forces but there are many many other strategies employed (Steel Legion, Tanith, Catachan, Elysian). In fact the majority of fluff regiments are not built on human wave tactics. Due to this fact, not to mention how terribly human waves translate to the tabletop, there is absolutely no reason a new Guard codex should be defined by such things.

ExFideFortis wrote:
Guard are not defined by massive waves of chaff infantry. That strategy is employed by some Guard forces but there are many many other strategies employed (Steel Legion, Tanith, Catachan, Elysian). In fact the majority of fluff regiments are not built on human wave tactics. Due to this fact, not to mention how terribly human waves translate to the tabletop, there is absolutely no reason a new Guard codex should be defined by such things.

Still, they are expected to suck balls compared to space marines and be vastly more numerous.

morgoth wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

(Or better yet reverse the obscene power bloat)

Well I disagree.

I want to see 660 models, I want to see real fething Imperial Guard.

If I ever get into that army, I'll have legions of noname nobodies who'll just get crushed in masse because that's their whole purpose in life. (by the way, movement strips are a thing you know.. even in 40k).

I'd rather they don't make the IG more powerful per head than it already is.

Also, I would like their tanks to be shrunk in points and maybe even downgraded a little, so that hey may be more numerous, more "we suck but there's a lot of us".

It doesn't scream "Mechanical Division" when you have about 10 tanks on the table.

And here we have one of the major issues the Guard face: Other factions players.

You disagree, good sir, because to your perspective the Guard army is all about the horde of MORE MANZ THANZ YOUZ LOLZ! In reality the Guard is a combined arms army similar to many WW2 fighting units. We are not a horde army, and this cannot be stressed enough.
Now you see, your perspective of the Guard as a whole is wrong, and your ideas for "fixing" our army are even worse than that. You are talking about making Guardsmen cheaper, but at 5 points per head (6 if you bring Veterans which you do) they cannot really conceivably get any cheaper than they already are, and even if they did then your average Guardsman would have to be a mere 2 points per model (3 or 4 if Veteran) to be anywhere near viable with their current stats. At this point most Guard players will just laugh and throw the towel in because bringing (let alone owning) that many Guardsmen is ludicrous.
What about tanks. Well, you want to make them worse. That is NOT the answer by any stretch of the imagination, especially as they are already bad for their points cost as it is. "But make them cheaper so you can spam them" I hear you cry, but this is not a viable strategy. If anything Leman Russ need to become more powerful AND cheaper to be anywhere near viable again.

Then we come to the crux of the matter: "If I ever get into that army". You do not even PLAY the Imperial Guard, and yet you seem to think that your rather stupid suggestion is a great fix for our army, despite what everyone else has said. You say that you would run thousands of Infantry models on the board, hundreds of support units. Have you any idea how stupid that is? Have you ever tried to collect and build that big of an army? No, you have not. Just buying that many models is beyond the budget of most players, and assembling and painting that vast a sum of near identical figures to any level of tabletop standard takes so long that in the end you find yourself just wanting to pack it in.
And once you have done this herculean task you then have the issue of transporting them to the store, a job that requires a car and several large boxes, before youset up. Setting up will take the better part of an hour, and the chances are that you will struggle to get everything into your deployment zone. And then when you have done so you had better pray that your opponent has no blast weapons, otherwise your army will be removed before it can even do anything.

No, horde Guard is the wrong way to go. However judging by your attitude I am going to guess that you play one of the big three: Marines, Tau or Eldar.
you have no idea, and until you have been here you never will. Wait until your finely painted infantry are reduced to the status of glorified wound markers and your big hitters are laughable, and then come back to us.

On a brighter note, there is one thing that 40K really needs: To come back down in scale so that infantry are viable once again. Look at Bolt Action, a platoon scale game with one or two AFV's operating in a sea of Infantry. It works. We need something like that, a game that focuses on Infantry supported by a couple of vehicles and with the big things left out for specified Apocalypse matches.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

Still, they are expected to suck balls compared to space marines and be vastly more numerous.

Look, stop showing your ignorance and go and read up on the Guard fluff. Dan Abnett's books are a good starting point

Blobs with psyker support, artillery, and air cav is the way to go. The tanks are mostly junk. Not enough dakka.

morgoth wrote:
I want to see 660 models

A barebones Emperor's Shield Infantry Company is 174 models and can be expanded to be up to 549 models. You can legally play this as a single detachment if you so wish. Fully expanded and kitted out it is well over 4500 points.

If nobody else wants to play that, maybe you should think on WHY they don't want to play it.

 master of ordinance wrote:
. At this point most Guard players will just laugh and throw the towel in because bringing (let alone owning) that many Guardsmen is ludicrous.

What's wrong with owning that many Guardsmen... I pulled out the old plastic RT IG bitz bag the other day and started assembling bodies. Stopped when I hit 100... Not that I would ever want to field that many, two 30-man blobs is usually sufficient (1500-1850 points).

 don_mondo wrote:
What's wrong with owning that many Guardsmen
[...]
Stopped when I hit 100... Not that I would ever want to field that many

... I can't tell if this post is parodying itself or not.

ExFideFortis wrote:Guard are not defined by massive waves of chaff infantry. That strategy is employed by some Guard forces but there are many many other strategies employed (Steel Legion, Tanith, Catachan, Elysian). In fact the majority of fluff regiments are not built on human wave tactics. Due to this fact, not to mention how terribly human waves translate to the tabletop, there is absolutely no reason a new Guard codex should be defined by such things.

Hell, even a lot of the forces that are known employ mass waves of infantry are known for more than that. While Krieg might be known first and foremost for their willingness to sacrifice huge numbers of men at once, they're also similarly known for having fantastic stormtroopers, cavalry, and artillery.

morgoth wrote:

ExFideFortis wrote:
Guard are not defined by massive waves of chaff infantry. That strategy is employed by some Guard forces but there are many many other strategies employed (Steel Legion, Tanith, Catachan, Elysian). In fact the majority of fluff regiments are not built on human wave tactics. Due to this fact, not to mention how terribly human waves translate to the tabletop, there is absolutely no reason a new Guard codex should be defined by such things.

Still, they are expected to suck balls compared to space marines and be vastly more numerous.

Learn your fluff. The average conscript might be weak and throw away, but a Stormtrooper is some seriously badass stuff, and physical modifications aside, capable of going toe-to-toe with a space marine. Guard infantry ranges all over the place in terms of quality.

 master of ordinance wrote:

And here we have one of the major issues the Guard face: Other factions players.

You disagree, good sir, because to your perspective the Guard army is all about the horde of MORE MANZ THANZ YOUZ LOLZ! In reality the Guard is a combined arms army similar to many WW2 fighting units. We are not a horde army, and this cannot be stressed enough.
Now you see, your perspective of the Guard as a whole is wrong, and your ideas for "fixing" our army are even worse than that. You are talking about making Guardsmen cheaper, but at 5 points per head (6 if you bring Veterans which you do) they cannot really conceivably get any cheaper than they already are, and even if they did then your average Guardsman would have to be a mere 2 points per model (3 or 4 if Veteran) to be anywhere near viable with their current stats. At this point most Guard players will just laugh and throw the towel in because bringing (let alone owning) that many Guardsmen is ludicrous.
What about tanks. Well, you want to make them worse. That is NOT the answer by any stretch of the imagination, especially as they are already bad for their points cost as it is. "But make them cheaper so you can spam them" I hear you cry, but this is not a viable strategy. If anything Leman Russ need to become more powerful AND cheaper to be anywhere near viable again.

Then we come to the crux of the matter: "If I ever get into that army". You do not even PLAY the Imperial Guard, and yet you seem to think that your rather stupid suggestion is a great fix for our army, despite what everyone else has said. You say that you would run thousands of Infantry models on the board, hundreds of support units. Have you any idea how stupid that is? Have you ever tried to collect and build that big of an army? No, you have not. Just buying that many models is beyond the budget of most players, and assembling and painting that vast a sum of near identical figures to any level of tabletop standard takes so long that in the end you find yourself just wanting to pack it in.
And once you have done this herculean task you then have the issue of transporting them to the store, a job that requires a car and several large boxes, before youset up. Setting up will take the better part of an hour, and the chances are that you will struggle to get everything into your deployment zone. And then when you have done so you had better pray that your opponent has no blast weapons, otherwise your army will be removed before it can even do anything.

No, horde Guard is the wrong way to go. However judging by your attitude I am going to guess that you play one of the big three: Marines, Tau or Eldar.
you have no idea, and until you have been here you never will. Wait until your finely painted infantry are reduced to the status of glorified wound markers and your big hitters are laughable, and then come back to us.

On a brighter note, there is one thing that 40K really needs: To come back down in scale so that infantry are viable once again. Look at Bolt Action, a platoon scale game with one or two AFV's operating in a sea of Infantry. It works. We need something like that, a game that focuses on Infantry supported by a couple of vehicles and with the big things left out for specified Apocalypse matches.

I play Eldar and I have 30.000 points of them.
I don't know if that's big enough to you.

What I'm saying about armor is that even if it were to be made stronger, it would need to be cheaper in order for it to look like a mechanized division.

If elite armies can bring more tanks than you, then you fail at being mech-AM.

That's it.

 master of ordinance wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Still, they are expected to suck balls compared to space marines and be vastly more numerous.

Look, stop showing your ignorance and go and read up on the Guard fluff. Dan Abnett's books are a good starting point

Do you mean that there are some books somewhere, that describe the guard being so good as to be able to not suck balls compared to space marines?
Or do you mean that the imperium does not have billions of guardsmen?

I don't know... it seems to me like AM are supposed to be somewhat weak, normal humans, destined to be cannon fodder.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
How do you fix lasguns so that they manage to remain 'weak' and yet manage to actually inflict some damage? I've been pondering that question for years.

Do you give them more shots or do you increase their power? Personally, if they bumped them up to strength 4 whilst keeping them at AP: -, that might make them useful whilst keeping them weak. But I'm just brainstorming.

Flanking an enemy should provide a bonus to strength, number of shots, ballistic skill, or AP.

A bunch of soldiers shooting at each other from cover typically don't take each other out as quickly, but if you send a light, and quick fire team focused on flanking the enemy, then they can clear the position in a few seconds.

In short, standing there and firing at an enemy isn't going to be effective and shouldn't be. In a one on one fight against a typical enemy, the guard should lose, but if the guard employ tactics they should be able to decimate the opposing force.

In other words, the guard player should be rewarded for advancing his forces in a tactical manner, and the enemy punished for over extending or ignoring a potential threat.

This system would also allow for a more organic narrative as it would allow otherwise weak units to become heroes if played correctly.


Personally I think riflemen in general are ignored in the 40k ruleset. Bolters aren't really powerful either sadly.

All the people complaining about poor basic weapons and weak hordes of infantry need to ask themselves why they are even pondering playing IMPERIAL GUARD ( get out of here with that AM nonsense! ). I mean seriously, if you want elite, go for Space Marines. If they are "too elite", then your gripe should be about Storm Troopers being so damn expensive even though they lost standard wargear, wargear options and special abilities with the new codex.

Guard are supposed to be challenging. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

@ master of ordinance

You're absolutely right about Leman Russes. They should cheaper and easier to field. Maybe even better too. A full armoured company with some infantry and air/artillery support should be able to fit into 1800pts.

Now I think that 40k itself needs an overhaul but if we where working in the current system, give a vanquisher cannon instant death. That's a Death Star killer right there. Also, since the Eradicator isn't as good as a Hellhound it needs a boost. Maybe one of those radiation effects that reduce toughness? Oh, that would be pretty good actually.

CplPunishment wrote:
All the people complaining about poor basic weapons and weak hordes of infantry need to ask themselves why they are even pondering playing IMPERIAL GUARD ( get out of here with that AM nonsense! ).

It literally says Imperial Guard almost every instance in the book. It even says something to the effect of "Astra Militarum is the High Gothic name used for the forces of the Imperial Guard".

Getting bent out of shape about people referring to it as such is pretty petty.

I mean seriously, if you want elite, go for Space Marines. If they are "too elite", then your gripe should be about Storm Troopers being so damn expensive even though they lost standard wargear, wargear options and special abilities with the new codex.

Except Stormtroopers didn't lose anything they haven't had since the post-Doctrines book.

In fact, they actually gained with the addition of the Hotshot Volley Gun.

People don't want Guard to be able to roll up and get into CC with Greater Daemons and win. They want there to be an actual purpose behind the quantity of troops. As it stands now, all it amounts to is more dice to roll.

Guard are supposed to be challenging. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

This kind of attitude is ridiculous.

Guard aren't "supposed to be challenging". They're supposed to be an army that is built around static firepower and armour.
NONE OF WHICH ACTUALLY WORKS IN 40K RIGHT NOW WHEN PLAYED AS GUARD.

Tanks? Glanced to death.
Infantry? Lol, okay. Upgrading them with any weapons means you're paying Space Marine prices.

This isn't a case of "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen". It's a case of the house burning down around the kitchen.

Flanking an enemy should be a rule for everyone. It should be in the core rules.

IMO, to fix our lack of power with the infantry, we should have a bonus when 2 or more units are shooting at the same target. I dont know what kind of bonus could be balanced.


Ratlings should have a move-shoot-move rule. Now the can move after shooting but if the hide they will not shoot in the next turn because they have heavy 1 weapons.

Rough Riders shoud have T4 S4+ in order to live enough to do something.

And since our codex was released, there are much more MC. LR Vanquisher should be D force to deal with them. A single no-blast shoot per turn is not OP, IMO.
And it should have +1BS or to be twin linked in order to hit something.

And Regular Taurox should be fast.

Dump Rough Riders and Ratlings. They've never contributed anything beyond taking up a slot.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Dump Rough Riders and Ratlings. They've never contributed anything beyond taking up a slot.

And rough riders always looked so unbearably stupid to non-guard players I would bet.

Why did you bring your bretonnians to a 40k game?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Dump Rough Riders and Ratlings. They've never contributed anything beyond taking up a slot.

They hurt nothing, and the guard have other elite/fast attack options for you to use if you don't like them. Don't you think dumping them is inconsiderate to the people who spent time/money on them or know how to use them in their local meta? Sorry but that would be a dick-move on GW's part.

CplPunishment wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Dump Rough Riders and Ratlings. They've never contributed anything beyond taking up a slot.

They hurt nothing, and the guard have other elite/fast attack options for you to use if you don't like the. Don't uou think dumping them is inconsiderate to the people who spent time/money on them or know how to use them in their local meta? Sorry but that would be a dick-move on GW's part.

Ask anyone who had units of Stormtroopers, Veterans, or Guard infantry with Lasgun/Hellgun armed Sergeants how they feel about the current books.

Short answer? I don't care. They can get over it.
They're legacy options that were kept to maintain a "certain number of options" in those slots, but in reality do nothing but hold back development time that could be used to make something actually thoughtful and interesting.

Something that needs to be understood right here and now is this:
Guard, as an army, need a dramatic restructuring and reconcepting. It won't come from us keeping stupid crap like Ratlings and Rough Riders around.

It will come from us accepting that Fast Attack slots aren't strictly for "things that go fast". It's a perfect slot for Tarantula Sentry Guns, for example, given that TSGs have the capability to be airdropped into position.