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Is Religion relevant in the 21st Century?'
'What does Religion mean to you?'
'Do Religions need to reform?'
'What counts as Religion?'
'What's Scientology and all those other obscure Religions past and present?'
Religion is based on one singular concept. And that is system of belief.
Science is based on concept of fact, logic, and rationality. But it is based on a similar concept to 'belief', that being someone had to start with a theory which is similar to belief but far from it, more of a gut feeling that something might be wrong. Either it be on the mysteries of life or how earth rotates around the sun, humans begin most discoveries with a theory and execute a way to test and prove.
Where religion is more stagnant in this structure and less about the proving and more just the idea of "I believe" and faith in something.
Whether there is a god or not, we don't know. There is no way to prove if there is a god in the universe or we are just biological monstrosities created from millions or even billions of years of micro-evolution.
What I've learned while studying philosophy and dealing with people in general, the most dangerous types of people are those who claim to 'know' with absolute resolution that something is real and they are absolutely sure, they speak the truth. Which is why religion can be dangerous, we see it through out history and we see it through out our own society today. We have seen people proclaim 'truth' and it deterioates into a cult. Either be commiting fraud or by making people believe something that doesn't exist.
Religion is dangerous, and it always will be. We can believe that god created the world or a giant wolf will devour the world, thats all well and great, anyone can believe in anything as long as it is not harming others or stamping on other people's rights or becoming hypocrites.
Religion does lead to a more conservative nature if not more bland look over how people and societies work together, the state of mind for many people who are in religion are : There is nothing left to learn. Though that maybe only anecdotal evidence. As most scientists I know are always in pursuit of more knowledge and understanding of the universe, while on the inverse a priest and pastor I know believe science is fake, and a charade or bring up how woman are 'meant' to serve men.
But that is not the question here, whether or not it is relevant? No, in a humane and rational society, we would be built upon values, morals, ideas, and innovation. No religion has no place in the future of this planet, it is divisive and used as a tool to push people into non-relevancy or into the idea they do not matter because they are such and such under what ever ruling some god put in place. I do not follow any one who says that someone is 'lesser' than they.
Religion needs a hard look at itself, and that is the followers, and the leaders, to ensure they are not sounding like a cult. I can't tell you the amount of times I've gone to church to hear about political statements. In the US it is politicized Religion, religion is used as a tool as a weapon for people to justify their actions.
What do I believe? I am uncertain as to what that means, I am neither a christian anymore or a follower of science, as I do not ascribe to the idea that I "believe in science", I don't believe in science. And thats fine you don't have to faith it is real, you only need to understand what type of belief you have.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: That article was indeed twattle(can we say that?). The cessation of consciousness is probably the simplest and easiest 'afterlife' to imagine or explain. Just imagine falling asleep, but never waking up and never dreaming, and you're not really there to know you're not dreaming. Just nothing. Fade to black. Poof. One minute you're alive, and the next-----
God this idea has given me countless sleepless nights. Maybe that's why I'm agnostic
BobtheInquisitor wrote: That article was indeed twattle(can we say that?). The cessation of consciousness is probably the simplest and easiest 'afterlife' to imagine or explain. Just imagine falling asleep, but never waking up and never dreaming, and you're not really there to know you're not dreaming. Just nothing. Fade to black. Poof. One minute you're alive, and the next-----
God this idea has given me countless sleepless nights. Maybe that's why I'm agnostic
Really? I've always found it comforting, compared to many of the most popular alternatives.
The best part is, if there's nothing after death, you'll never know. You might be looking forward to heaven and reuniting with your lost loved ones, but it's not like you'll be disappointed.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The best part is, if there's nothing after death, you'll never know. You might be looking forward to heaven and reuniting with your lost loved ones, but it's not like you'll be disappointed.
The sweet embrace of the void, is not something many people find comfort in.
All of our lives we've been told the darkness or just nothing at all is bad. I would hardly blame anyone for being afraid of it.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
On the flip side, inescapable infinity is terrifying in it's own way. In a sense, you'll be outliving your children, your grandchildren, your whole family tree, your nation, your species, your planet... while at the same time being a creature that had at best a century of mortal existence.
Ace From Outer Space wrote: I am an atheist. The older I get, the deeper and more entrenched my atheism gets, but only on a personal level. Some people have faith, and it gives them many great things. Other people dont, and do not lack any of these things. Do whatever works for you, put no one down for their belief or lack of belief and don't hurt anyone.
If religious and non religous people stuck to this then the world would certainly be a bit more pleasant!
That is completely true, I think the wrong people will forever abuse Religion to control others for as long as it remains effect.
On a more personal not, please don't be offended, but as an atheist what do you believe will happen to you when you die? I read an article a while back (not sure if I could believe its findings) that said a fair proportion of atheists go back to praying to God on their deathbed. If such a being could be twaddle what do you think happens? - Apart from the obvious.
I really do think that's it, My time is up, my tenure over, the end! I grew up in a Hindu household, went to the temple with the parents every week and was surrounded by people who got the hidden meanings and subtexts within the religious services they went to. I got nothing, well, I did get bored but that was it.
As far as the deathbed thing goes? When my dad died when I was 14, he got no solace from religion, and on his death bed he didn't ask for a priest but did ask to see his kids. When I was at uni, a lot of friends played around with the concept of atheism with some of them were doing it for show, and ended up replacing one belief system for another, or returning to their existing faith. Maybe some people need the concept of a structure beyond death, so they go back to the convenient comfort of faith as they reach the end? For me, the matter I am made of will return to the planet and another natural cycle will begin.
Try as I might, I just couldn't convince myself there was anything out there, and for me there just isn't! Anyway, hope this answer is useful Sentinel, thank you for asking!
At least with the thought of nothing after death, the only chance you get for physical and spiritual rewards from positively affecting the world would be during the time you are here, so you had better get to work.
But at the same time you spend your efforts screwing over others to help yourself, the eventual reward you get is people's low opinions of you, and then to be worm-food.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Ace From Outer Space wrote: I am an atheist. The older I get, the deeper and more entrenched my atheism gets, but only on a personal level. Some people have faith, and it gives them many great things. Other people dont, and do not lack any of these things. Do whatever works for you, put no one down for their belief or lack of belief and don't hurt anyone.
If religious and non religous people stuck to this then the world would certainly be a bit more pleasant!
That is completely true, I think the wrong people will forever abuse Religion to control others for as long as it remains effect.
On a more personal not, please don't be offended, but as an atheist what do you believe will happen to you when you die? I read an article a while back (not sure if I could believe its findings) that said a fair proportion of atheists go back to praying to God on their deathbed. If such a being could be twaddle what do you think happens? - Apart from the obvious.
I really do think that's it, My time is up, my tenure over, the end! I grew up in a Hindu household, went to the temple with the parents every week and was surrounded by people who got the hidden meanings and subtexts within the religious services they went to. I got nothing, well, I did get bored but that was it.
As far as the deathbed thing goes? When my dad died when I was 14, he got no solace from religion, and on his death bed he didn't ask for a priest but did ask to see his kids. When I was at uni, a lot of friends played around with the concept of atheism with some of them were doing it for show, and ended up replacing one belief system for another, or returning to their existing faith. Maybe some people need the concept of a structure beyond death, so they go back to the convenient comfort of faith as they reach the end? For me, the matter I am made of will return to the planet and another natural cycle will begin.
Try as I might, I just couldn't convince myself there was anything out there, and for me there just isn't! Anyway, hope this answer is useful Sentinel, thank you for asking!
My oldest daughter is currently dating a Hindu from Nepal. He's a damn good kid that has also stolen the hearts of my other two daughters and is learning to like watching Westerns when they come by. My daughter has warned me against teaching him 40k though, because she says he'd be with me all the time then instead of her!
AegisGrimm wrote: At least with the thought of nothing after death, the only chance you get for physical and spiritual rewards from positively affecting the world would be during the time you are here, so you had better get to work.
But at the same time you spend your efforts screwing over others to help yourself, the eventual reward you get is people's low opinions of you, and then to be worm-food.
I do try to make the world a better place as much as I can.I help people rebuild their lives after they have lost their sight. We only have a short time on the planet, it's only polite to leave it in a slightly better state than you found it!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Teach him 40k Relapse!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 06:20:12
AegisGrimm wrote: At least with the thought of nothing after death, the only chance you get for physical and spiritual rewards from positively affecting the world would be during the time you are here, so you had better get to work.
But at the same time you spend your efforts screwing over others to help yourself, the eventual reward you get is people's low opinions of you, and then to be worm-food.
If there's nothing after death you're nothing more than worm food no matter what you do, so are all the people you helped/screwed over along the way. But then I'm not a great person to ask, I think most death/afterlife theories sound fething horrible.
'Is Religion relevant in the 21st Century?'
No, it is an antiquated form of control in an era where science and facts exist. It is only relevant now because of the way it uses their followers to push their own agenda. IE The Middle east and Christian Right.
'What does Religion mean to you?'
It was a way to control masses by putting "the fear of god" into people.
'Do Religions need to reform?'
They need to go away.
'What counts as Religion?'
Any sort of belief that goes out of the realm of science and fact that can not be proven and merely taken on faith.
'What's Scientology and all those other obscure Religions past and present?'
Pagan religions have been gobbled up by such religions as Christianity. They have taken a lot of their customs and holidays and made it their own which made it easier to coax them into christianity or convert when dominated as it has happened in the past.
Other religions are just as bad both new and old. It is all a form of control.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 12:56:59
Would you mind expanding on this? I generally consider religion and philosophy to be opposites. We use philosophy to question ourselves, our perceptions, and our beliefs. But religion's stance (if simplified) is that all the answers needed come from an immutable source that can't be questioned.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 13:42:45
Would you mind expanding on this? I generally consider religion and philosophy to be opposites. We use philosophy to question ourselves, our perceptions, and our beliefs. But religion's stance (if simplified) is that all the answers needed come from an immutable source that can't be questioned.
Pretty sure they used to persecute philosophers too
Would you mind expanding on this? I generally consider religion and philosophy to be opposites. We use philosophy to question ourselves, our perceptions, and our beliefs. But religion's stance (if simplified) is that all the answers needed come from an immutable source that can't be questioned.
Pretty sure they used to persecute philosophers too
And yet we have a slew of Catholic philosophers to include Thomas Aquinas, Thomas More, Blaise Pascal and many others. Other Christian philosophers include John Locke and Edmund Burke
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
Would you mind expanding on this? I generally consider religion and philosophy to be opposites. We use philosophy to question ourselves, our perceptions, and our beliefs. But religion's stance (if simplified) is that all the answers needed come from an immutable source that can't be questioned.
Pretty sure they used to persecute philosophers too
And yet we have a slew of Catholic philosophers to include Thomas Aquinas, Thomas More, Blaise Pascal and many others. Other Christian philosophers include John Locke and Edmund Burke
Would you mind expanding on this? I generally consider religion and philosophy to be opposites. We use philosophy to question ourselves, our perceptions, and our beliefs. But religion's stance (if simplified) is that all the answers needed come from an immutable source that can't be questioned.
Philosophy and religion comes from one thing - people are trying to find their place in the Universe and to find meaning of their existance. Actually, messiah were sort of philosophers. Bible is ab ook of ancient philosophy. Problem is - people don't understeand the purpose of religion. Religion is a thing, that should answer their questions and make them happier. Make them free. Make them to not suffer the living without meaning of life. People think, god is some dude, that punishes and forgives, crusfix is a magic artefact and visiting Church and listenind pope is the only act of true believing. Jesus was a philosopher, not some superman sended by supersuperman. And old testament was an older philosophy. Pagans is a philosophy too and it's very different. That's why pagans were enemies to the Christians. Their philosophy was to hate and to kill nighborhoods, die fighting, be illiterate and superstitious and so on. Of course, Christians did a lot of destruction. That's because they were actually a pagans with cross and Jesus. People can do that without religion too - look what happened in 20 century, how many people died because of atheists.
And what we have now? No religion, just some obsolete traditions. No philosophy, just thoughtless consumption of the goods. What can make a person calm, build him inner core and make feeling himself as a part of the Universe? Drugs? No. Go to Tibet? You don't need for that. Just think. Remove garbage from your brains. Think about yourself. What do you need? You need a god. No matter what name you will use and what shape
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 15:04:13
Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Me, I'm an Atheist. I won't go into why as that has a nasty habit of sounding like I'm scolding believers (I'm genuinely not).
But hey, here's this
The essence of religion right there.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I'm all for religion - it gives people comfort when they need it, and directs them towards being good people. They all cover similar teachings and revolve around being good, charitable people.
It's abused by a few people who use it for other means, and far too wrapped up in the state. But neither of those things are symptomatic of the religion itself; people will use anything as an excuse for power, money or just to be gakky to each other.
Herzlos wrote: It's abused by a few people who use it for other means, and far too wrapped up in the state. But neither of those things are symptomatic of the religion itself; people will use anything as an excuse for power, money or just to be gakky to each other.
But history has shown it is not an obtuse few...
As for morals and codes, they existed long before.
For religion to reform? I will just leave this.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/06 18:01:58
AegisGrimm wrote: At least with the thought of nothing after death, the only chance you get for physical and spiritual rewards from positively affecting the world would be during the time you are here, so you had better get to work.
But at the same time you spend your efforts screwing over others to help yourself, the eventual reward you get is people's low opinions of you, and then to be worm-food.
If there's nothing after death you're nothing more than worm food no matter what you do, so are all the people you helped/screwed over along the way. But then I'm not a great person to ask, I think most death/afterlife theories sound fething horrible.
Well, part of this belief requires taking pride in how you are remembered, knowing that if you are a horrible person, your name will be associated with failure or disgust. It does require a certain amount of a civic-based mind, as obviously sociopaths are too crazy to care what others think. But honestly, 99% of humans want to be respected.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
AegisGrimm wrote: At least with the thought of nothing after death, the only chance you get for physical and spiritual rewards from positively affecting the world would be during the time you are here, so you had better get to work.
But at the same time you spend your efforts screwing over others to help yourself, the eventual reward you get is people's low opinions of you, and then to be worm-food.
If there's nothing after death you're nothing more than worm food no matter what you do, so are all the people you helped/screwed over along the way. But then I'm not a great person to ask, I think most death/afterlife theories sound fething horrible.
Well, part of this belief requires taking pride in how you are remembered, knowing that if you are a horrible person, your name will be associated with failure or disgust. It does require a certain amount of a civic-based mind, as obviously sociopaths are too crazy to care what others think. But honestly, 99% of humans want to be respected.
But what's the point in taking pride in how you're remembered if there's nothing after death? You're worm food either way and once you're gone you'll have no reward for it or concept that people are remembering you either for being good or for being evil.
I understand that in general people like to be liked, which could be an evolutionary hangover or some god imbued sense of self importance, but where one believes that feeling comes from it doesn't really seem to have a logical link to knowledge that there's nothing after death. Knowledge that there's nothing after death seems to me more like a reason to analytically investigate the futility of your feelings.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/07 10:54:32
Although I'm a polytheist, not an atheist, I can understand the sentiment behind creating a legacy.
Temporal immortality, AllSeeing Skink. Who doesn't want an awesome building named after them? And you surely don't want to go down as the guy who ruined the name 'Adolf' for everyone? And if you donate organs to an organ donor- how long could your genetic material live on after death?
Most good from religions is meant to be derived from altruism anyways. It's also the actions people are most likely to be remembered favorably for. We don't remember Marie Curie for winning a Darwin award for carrying out experiments with radiation without adequate protection. We remember her for advancing that field of science for all of us.
In our own small way, most of us try to have a positive impact on some part of the world. My legacy will be my children.
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
Gitzbitah wrote: Although I'm a polytheist, not an atheist, I can understand the sentiment behind creating a legacy.
Temporal immortality, AllSeeing Skink. Who doesn't want an awesome building named after them? And you surely don't want to go down as the guy who ruined the name 'Adolf' for everyone? And if you donate organs to an organ donor- how long could your genetic material live on after death?
Most good from religions is meant to be derived from altruism anyways. It's also the actions people are most likely to be remembered favorably for. We don't remember Marie Curie for winning a Darwin award for carrying out experiments with radiation without adequate protection. We remember her for advancing that field of science for all of us.
In our own small way, most of us try to have a positive impact on some part of the world. My legacy will be my children.
Yeah I don't deny people have a desire to do those things.... I just don't see the logical link between a desire to have a lasting effect on the world and knowledge that death is final. I think the desire to be liked, the desire to be remembered and the desire to have your genetic material live on are simply hangovers from an evolutionary perspective (or if you're a theist, imbued by a god for whatever reason)... so of course I believe you can both have and understand those desires regardless of your world view, because they are innately human desires.
Every month, an amount is paid from my wage to Great Ormond Street Hospital.
Last Christmas, I did a Just Giving funding thing, and raised £400 to provide presents for sick and disadvantaged kids. £200 went to GOSH as a cash donation (they can do better work with cash than me delivering random toys), and the other £200 was spent on Footballs and Teddy Bear kits, which I donated to Tower Hamlets Foodbank (one of the most deprived areas in the UK).
So I do what I can to help out here and there. I absolutely could do more, and am always looking to do so. Ideally, I'd like to give back to my community by volunteering as a Scout or Cub Scout leader - but sadly my commute prevents that entirely.
You don't need Religion to be a good person. I feel that's a very dangerous fallacy often pedalled, that Atheists are inherently amoral.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I understand that in general people like to be liked, which could be an evolutionary hangover or some god imbued sense of self importance, but where one believes that feeling comes from it doesn't really seem to have a logical link to knowledge that there's nothing after death. Knowledge that there's nothing after death seems to me more like a reason to analytically investigate the futility of your feelings.
Maybe because humans don't want mankind to die out just because you aren't there to enjoy continued life? Which means humans are generally more likely to ensure the future generation has better future than you had.
Especially handy as usually that gives direct benefit to you as well. You might not enjoy full fruits but better world is still better even if your lifetime in the better world is shorter than next generation.
I grew up in a Hindu household, went to the temple with the parents every week and was surrounded by people who got the hidden meanings and subtexts within the religious services they went to. I got nothing, well, I did get bored but that was it.
Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
