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2017/02/28 19:19:23
Subject: Re:what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
The thing that's been bothering me the most recently isn't exactly a piece of fluff but rather some people's interpretation of that fluff. It's the ork's gestalt psychic field that starts warping reality to fit the ork's beliefs, the extent of which depends on the number of orks and how worked up they are.
I'm actually fine with this fluff and think it's fun. What I don't like is when it is taken too far. An individual ork shoota only working because the ork believes it to work, or an ork getting super worked up and continuing to fire when he's actually out of ammo? That's fin and fun. All ork shootas being simply gun-shaped totems that don't actually work, and orks never reloading because they don't know they're supposed to? That's not something I like, and it mostly invalidates the whole built-in knowledge concept.
I've actually seen/heard this several times recently, and it's usually in the context of people explaining the orks to non-40k people, so I'd guess they're just simplifying and using hyperbole to give people a fast impression of what the orks are like.
YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA!
2017/02/28 19:32:00
Subject: what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
I am aware of some differences, but I don't think they would matter when a lascannon struggles to penetrate about 300mm of steel, while the Abrams has about 4 times this amount worth of armor (that's agaisnt chemical energy rounds, kinetic penetration is better, but lascanons aren't kinetic as far as I am aware)
Bobthehero wrote: I am aware of some differences, but I don't think they would matter when a lascannon struggles to penetrate about 300mm of steel, while the Abrams has about 4 times this amount worth of armor (that's agaisnt chemical energy rounds, kinetic penetration is better, but lascanons aren't kinetic as far as I am aware)
Why not use plasteel instead of steel, then?
You're again assuming that either we've made no improvements in steel manufacturing for the next 38,000 years, or that the passage is referring only to modern steels for no good reason. Both assumptions are laughable.
2017/02/28 20:49:02
Subject: what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
I think there's only so much you can do to steel and still call it steel.
And the reason I think it refers to modern steel is because plasteel is what's comonly used in the Imperium, and they're not using it there. Its also the reason I think they're still using our measurements units 38000 years in the future, its to give the reader an idea of what is going on
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I'm actually fine with this fluff and think it's fun. What I don't like is when it is taken too far. An individual ork shoota only working because the ork believes it to work, or an ork getting super worked up and continuing to fire when he's actually out of ammo? That's fin and fun.
Actually, Ork Shootas work in human hands, just far more unreliably so.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/02/28 21:39:11
Subject: Re:what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I'm actually fine with this fluff and think it's fun. What I don't like is when it is taken too far. An individual ork shoota only working because the ork believes it to work, or an ork getting super worked up and continuing to fire when he's actually out of ammo? That's fin and fun.
Actually, Ork Shootas work in human hands, just far more unreliably so.
Yeah, that's the way I always interpreted it.
General Annoyance wrote: Do Ork Shootas continue to work in the hands of the Ork without ammunition?
I was certain that was a fabrication - their psychic abilities aren't that strong (i.e. strong enough to materialise psychic ammunition)
I'm pretty sure I remember a bit of fluff in the 3rd Edition codex about an ork continuing to fire after his weapon was empty. I think it was in the bit written by the magos.
The way I understand ork psychic powers to work is that it depends on how many orks there are and how excited they are. A few hundred orks fighting a skirmish on a backwater? Their latent psychic abilities probably have no significant effect. Hundreds of millions of orks who are in the middle of the best fight they can hope for? Suddenly all sorts of crazy stuff becomes possible, but the orks don't know this is going on so they aren't doing things intentionally.
ETA: I would assume the vast majority of the time orks are reloading their weapons just like normal. It's when people say that the orks never reload or that there weapons are more totems in the shape of guns that don't actually work that I get annoyed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/28 21:55:17
YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA!
2017/02/28 21:57:53
Subject: Re:what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I'm pretty sure I remember a bit of fluff in the 3rd Edition codex about an ork continuing to fire after his weapon was empty. I think it was in the bit written by the magos.
The way I understand ork psychic powers to work is that it depends on how many orks there are and how excited they are. A few hundred orks fighting a skirmish on a backwater? Their latent psychic abilities probably have no significant effect. Hundreds of millions of orks who are in the middle of the best fight they can hope for? Suddenly all sorts of crazy stuff becomes possible, but the orks don't know this is going on so they aren't doing things intentionally.
ETA: I would assume the vast majority of the time orks are reloading their weapons just like normal. It's when people say that the orks never reload or that there weapons are more totems in the shape of guns that don't actually work that I get annoyed.
The second part of that is definitely true. I have just believed that, even in massive numbers, they still need to feed material ammunition into their weapons. The increase in Waaagh! energy mainly seems to help them create far more potent and crazy weaponry and equipment that they would just not think or be capable of building in smaller numbers.
G.A - Should've called myself Ghost Ark
Makeup Whiskers? This is War Paint!
2017/02/28 21:59:00
Subject: what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
Was an ork pilot was captured by tau after crash landing, the tau go over his plane and decide that there is no possibility of it ever flying again.. and not sure how it did in the first place, The captured ork makes a break for it, hops in his plane and flys away into the sunset... So a lone Ork flying away on the power of belief
2017/02/28 22:07:48
Subject: what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
BrianDavion wrote:except, all you have are you're assumptions for what direction they'll take him, why not wait and see?
The fact Primarchs are coming back is bad enough in and of itself, and that's confirmed now. If they load him up all Marty Stu-like and he becomes the new Emprah by virtue of being the Spiritual liege guy it'll just suck even harder.
Bobthehero wrote: I think there's only so much you can do to steel and still call it steel.
"Steel" isn't a name for a single type of material; it's a class of materials produced by alloying iron with carbon and other stuff. You can add all kinds of gak to a steel to alter its mechanical properties, but as long as it's an alloy with iron as its primary constituent it remains a "steel".
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2017/02/28 22:28:40
Subject: Re:what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
Is it really that difficult to pick content from between some low-ball wisecracks? I don't think so.
It is for me - despite studying psychology, I still end up being a little over interpretive of people's statements sometimes if they aren't clear.
That, and the fact that, again, bashing Rowboat Girlyman is not an uncommon sight, and such bashing is typically not accompanied with any point of merit.
Whenever you see Caesar in fiction he's presented as a manipulative megalomaniac who bought, bartered and beat his way into the hearts of the masses with borrowed coin and other mens' blood. If that's the direction GW take with The Rowboat then fair enough - hackneyed as it is, it's more engaging than "lol designated hero prodigal son spiritual liege new emprah lol". That's what they're lining up for The Rowboat. No wickedness, no avarice, no complexity outside the odd internal monologue as he gazes wistfully out a window and laments the deaths of his soldiers in a way Julius Caesar wouldn't. None of that. Just "Spiritual Liege". See if I'm wrong.
I'd certainly say that Roboute is a good manipulator of legacy (see: Codex Astartes), although I see the Ceasar part of him more in the empire forging and the bringing of order, by negotiation or well applied force.
Perhaps not nuanced like Ceasar, but certainly a train of thought more suiting for a Primarch.
If the shoe fits, right?
Just because the shoe fits doesn't mean it's a good fit. IOW: yes, a lot of characters in 40k are fairly one dimensional, but I feel like that was always the intention with 40k to focus more on the fact that, in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, being quirky and popular ain't going to give you plot armour thick enough to survive what the galaxy has to throw at you.
I'm free as I ever was to build armies and play games without regard for the fluff. Problem is, GW have decided that the narrative backdrop to the game system they've maintained for 28 years has to "advance", and that means their characters can no longer be the unobtrusive, static scenery pieces they have been up to this point. They need to develop, GW needs to develop them, and the return of Primarch superheroes suggests to me they're going to develop them along the lines of a Rob Liefeld gak-comic. The fact they've chosen to bring back the Elminster of 40k says only bad things about the direction the narrative will take.
I stand to be corrected, of course, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
Does the progression in the arc of 40k have to be accompanied by more character development though? It's still the same rules - there is only war; pick a side, and hope that your skills with a weapon are far superior to your personality if you want to live.
... gods?
Damn, I was hoping you'd say supervillains...
Batman's "superpower" is being very rich and going to the gym a lot. He loses sometimes too. He's still a superhero, yet the dude who submerges a metal dragon in lava and walks away with metal hands isn't. Likewise, Superman's super power is being invincible and better than a human being in every conceivable way (i.e. a Primarch, and before you say "thye can't fly though" - Sanguinius). He loses sometimes too. Still a superhero.
Just because you're superhuman doesn't mean you're a superhero though. The intention of good will has to be there also. Guilliman may express that, but even then, I'd hinge him closer to being someone more neutral than a big goody two shoes.
The distinctions are academic to me. The Primarchs are superheroes, and having them in 40k makes the galaxy one big superhero comic. Ask me how interested I am in playing the the bit-part Genestealer Cult villain or the Adepta Sororitas third-fiddle in "Rowboat-Force and The Primarch League". The answer is "not very". I'd rather go find a game system where my £800 army actually has a stake in the narrative.
I've been an Ork player for quite a long time. Us Xenos scum never expected a stake in the narrative, honestly.
... what? He's a genetically engineered superhero who fell from heaven in a meteorite and punched his way to the top in true superhero fashion. It's the same story as every other Primarch; there was never any danger he wouldn't make it to the top of anything because he can beat 1,000 men to death with his fists without breaking a sweat.
Now he's coming back to punch his way to the top at the head of The Primarch League and the Imperium. Zzzzzzz.
So the problem is more with the suspension of disbelief needed regarding his powers?
They've been talking about the Rowboat popsicle forever and a day. I remember reading about it in the 4th Ed BRB. "All the Primarchs are either vanished, dead, or in Hell - except the Spiritual Liege dude who is slowly healing in stasis you guise omg HINT HINT!"
What about Lion El Johnson, or Vulkan?
Continue work on? Belisarius Cawl has been sitting on a deus ex machina for 10,000 years, and now, with the Ynnari's help, he's about to deliver it to Rowboat so the Spiritual Liege can walk among us again.
If anything can save 8th Edition it'll be Yvraine and the Ynnari. They're up to something here, and it could be something awesome. Except it won't be because Spiritual Liege cannot lose due to being the new Emprah and zzzzzz....
Seems a little too predictable if you ask me, even for GW.
The IoM has always had a superhero at its head. The Emprah was fine, because The Emprah was a sealed superhero in (or rather, on) a can. Now Rawbutt is stepping forward to take his "rightful" place as new Emprah and Spiritual Liege, so the IoM is being led by a living, breathing superhero who will descend from heaven to right every wrong and reverse every success the evil aliens and Daemons manage to inflict.
Warhammer 40,000: Age of Girlyman. In stores summer 2017. I think I'll go and play Infinity.
I still think Roboute will not have as great an influence as you believe he might. Consider the fact that, now that he's up and about, chances are the other "unknown" Primarchs will join his side too. That also means the return of the Daemon Primarchs, and whatever else the forces of Chaos have up their sleeves.
Supposedly this is just Act 1 of 3 for this new progression. I doubt Guilliman will ultimately be instrumental to whatever happens just on his own by the end of it.
G.A - Should've called myself Ghost Ark
Makeup Whiskers? This is War Paint!
2017/02/28 22:33:37
Subject: Re:what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
Rune Priests - I really detest the concept that SW's have special snowflake psykers that can magically draw power from 'spirits' on Fenris, even when they're all the way across the other side of the Galaxy. It's not so much the concept in itself, just how it's only the Space Wolves that have this super special connection with their planet. I mean really, the Raven Guard could have Raven-y spirits, or the Salamanders could have Firedrake Spirits (Just to name the two other 'Animal' themed First Founding Chapters) just as reasonably - but only the SW's get this pointless piece of fluff. If all Psykers worked this way, then fair enough. But seeing how Psykers from Chaos, IoM, Eldar and myriad other factions all draw power from the Warp it's just so blatantly fan-boyish that the SW's get 'clean' psykers (Who conveniently avoid all the negatives of the warp) - total gak.
Warpig1815 wrote: Rune Priests - I really detest the concept that SW's have special snowflake psykers that can magically draw power from 'spirits' on Fenris, even when they're all the way across the other side of the Galaxy. It's not so much the concept in itself, just how it's only the Space Wolves that have this super special connection with their planet. I mean really, the Raven Guard could have Raven-y spirits, or the Salamanders could have Firedrake Spirits (Just to name the two other 'Animal' themed First Founding Chapters) just as reasonably - but only the SW's get this pointless piece of fluff. If all Psykers worked this way, then fair enough. But seeing how Psykers from Chaos, IoM, Eldar and myriad other factions all draw power from the Warp it's just so blatantly fan-boyish that the SW's get 'clean' psykers (Who conveniently avoid all the negatives of the warp) - total gak.
Ahhhhh... rant over.
Yesssssssss. I hate everything about Rune priests, and how the SW regard them compared to other psykers. It certainly doesn't help that TS are my 2nd favourite legion after the IW.
If you allow yourself to be killed and ingested, your soul is forfeited.
2017/03/01 00:19:41
Subject: Re:what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
General Annoyance wrote: It is for me - despite studying psychology, I still end up being a little over interpretive of people's statements sometimes if they aren't clear.
Right, but the silly name gags are a tiny fraction of people's posts. If you don't like them, that's fine, but their presence doesn't detract from or obfuscate the points people are making.
That, and the fact that, again, bashing Rowboat Girlyman is not an uncommon sight, and such bashing is typically not accompanied with any point of merit.
It's a common sight because R. Kellyman's miasmic presence in the 40k-sphere is a blight on the narrative for all kinds of reasons. Some people might join in just because it's popular, but the fact remains it's popular because it's valid.
I'd certainly say that Roboute is a good manipulator of legacy (see: Codex Astartes), although I see the Ceasar part of him more in the empire forging and the bringing of order, by negotiation or well applied force.
Perhaps not nuanced like Ceasar, but certainly a train of thought more suiting for a Primarch.
Right, so he's like the bargain-bin version of literary Caesar; he's got all the ambition and competence and heorism but none of the complexity or cruelty that make Caesar such a compelling character. The Codex Astartes is another egregious case of "tell, don't show" with respect to the Primarchs. Sueprhero demigod writes book about tactical doctrines for every situation ever conceived! Well done superhero, I guess.
Just because the shoe fits doesn't mean it's a good fit. IOW: yes, a lot of characters in 40k are fairly one dimensional, but I feel like that was always the intention with 40k to focus more on the fact that, in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, being quirky and popular ain't going to give you plot armour thick enough to survive what the galaxy has to throw at you.
It's not about being "quirky and popular"; it's about not sucking ass, which The Rowboat does, or being a huge spotlight star of the show, which GW wants Robert to be. Dude's upstaging the Emperor of Mankind with his comeback special. Doesn't get more obnoxious and intrusive than that.
Does the progression in the arc of 40k have to be accompanied by more character development though?
If you want to turn it into "Primarch Justice League" then yes it does. At the very least they need to be developed to the point where they can slot into the background and stay the hell out of the way of My Dudes. The games where I'm playing to win, story doesn't matter. I'll take three Patriarchs, two Maguses and no Primuses in my GSC army even though there's only supposed to be one of each, because if I want to win the game then that's the most effective way to go about it. When I'm playing in narrative campaigns or whatever then it suddenly becomes an issue. What's the point of working hard to subvert Imperial rule on a planet if Elminster Guilliman can just come along with his mighty Spiritual Liege Sword and undo all my hard work?
Just because you're superhuman doesn't mean you're a superhero though. The intention of good will has to be there also. Guilliman may express that, but even then, I'd hinge him closer to being someone more neutral than a big goody two shoes.
"Good" is a highly subjective and mutable concept. If we're looking at the 40k-verse from an Imperial perspective then Robust Guiltygear is unambiguously motivated by "good"; he might be "neutral" in ethical terms, but he's fighting to preserve truth, justice, and the Imperial way
I've been an Ork player for quite a long time. Us Xenos scum never expected a stake in the narrative, honestly.
I don't buy that. I remember one of the old BRBs - 4th Ed, I think - which spent pages upon pages detailing exactly how and why each of the factions was a serious contender. Orks would "win" 40k if they stopped fighting and united behind a single leader, but as it stood they were always a threat. Tyranids didn't even need to unite - every Splinter Fleet was capable of beating down anything but the most dedicated of Imperial counter efforts. The Eldar/ DEldar and Tau might not have been an existential threat in the same way as Orks, Nids and Chaos were, but notta one of them had any reason to fear the inept and inefficient Imperium. Sure the Imperials in general, and Spice Maroons in particular, got a lot more screen-time than everyone else, but they were all punching at roughly the same weight, albeit in different ways. Everyone had a stake in the story.
Now, though - it's Primarch time. Primarchs are coming to superhero it up, Elminster Guilliman will fix all the Imperium's troubles, they'll be reborn stronger and more competent and zzzzz....
So the problem is more with the suspension of disbelief needed regarding his powers?
It'd be harder to believe that he screwed up and had to be saved by The Emperor than it is to believe he punched out all the lords and became Ne Plus Ultra-Smurf of Macragge. That's a perfectly acceptable character for the in-universe mythos, but absolute trash when injected into a living narrative.
What about Lion El Johnson, or Vulkan?
The Robot Popsicle was in fluff as far back as 3rd Edition, if memory serves. The possible returns of Azlan and Vulkan were mooted much more recently. None of them should be coming back - unless the fluff is changed to reflect the fact 20 Acolyte Hybrids or a single Hellfrost Cannon can drop them on their asses in short order. That's certainly true of Magnus, who has to stay in the air whenever he faces GSC otherwise he gets punched out by inbred space miner hillbillies, and I don't doubt for a second it'll be true of Rawbutt Girlyman either.
Seems a little too predictable if you ask me, even for GW.
It's happening, and it stinks.
I still think Roboute will not have as great an influence as you believe he might. Consider the fact that, now that he's up and about, chances are the other "unknown" Primarchs will join his side too. That also means the return of the Daemon Primarchs, and whatever else the forces of Chaos have up their sleeves.
Supposedly this is just Act 1 of 3 for this new progression. I doubt Guilliman will ultimately be instrumental to whatever happens just on his own by the end of it.
All of this chimes with exactly what I was saying earlier, and it's all exactly what I don't want to happen. I can tolerate Daemon Primarchs. They're all pulling in different directions, and in terms of their longevity Warp does strange things, so fair enough. I'm actually on board with Fulgrim coming back because that suggests they're not going to squat Slaanesh. Normal Primarchs though? All these superheroes fighting for a single purpose against the BBEGs? Primarch Justice League 40k? No thanks. I'd rather play my Yu Jing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warpig1815 wrote: Rune Priests - I really detest the concept that SW's have special snowflake psykers that can magically draw power from 'spirits' on Fenris, even when they're all the way across the other side of the Galaxy. It's not so much the concept in itself, just how it's only the Space Wolves that have this super special connection with their planet. I mean really, the Raven Guard could have Raven-y spirits, or the Salamanders could have Firedrake Spirits (Just to name the two other 'Animal' themed First Founding Chapters) just as reasonably - but only the SW's get this pointless piece of fluff. If all Psykers worked this way, then fair enough. But seeing how Psykers from Chaos, IoM, Eldar and myriad other factions all draw power from the Warp it's just so blatantly fan-boyish that the SW's get 'clean' psykers (Who conveniently avoid all the negatives of the warp) - total gak.
Ahhhhh... rant over.
I quite like the whole runic/ Viking magician aesthetic - but yeah, it is 100% fan-spank and totally baseless. No reason they couldn't keep the "rune" stuff while having RPs operate the way everyone else does.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/01 00:22:37
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2017/03/01 00:33:40
Subject: what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
With one of those technologies they also lacked being any kind of effective body armor, let alone an entire suit of tank-grade powered armor? Yeah, great comparison.
If you'd actually read the rest of my point, I've addressed this here:
Ynneadwraith wrote: Even if Marines are are tough as the books make them out to be, you have to also agree that the enemies they face possess weapons formidable enough to kill Marines in a reasonable quantity. Otherwise there'd be no story at all and the Marines would just steamroll over the galaxy.
So, we can at least say that roughly the weapons each faction possesses are near enough to equal to make them comparable on a battlefield.
I can succinctly summarise it if that would help though:
Marine armour is tougher than modern armour. Xenos weapons are killier than modern weapons. Ergo, the comparison between relative casualties is valid enough to carry the argument forwards, given the disparity in numbers is so great.
Somme? You're big counterpoint is Somme? A battle fought largely by undertrained and inexperienced British soldiers that you point too, by armies that were still struggling to actually adapt to new technologies that invalidated most of their previous tactics, with the tactics they used being completely different from how marines actually fight? With one of those technologies they also lacked being any kind of effective body armor, let alone an entire suit of tank-grade powered armor? Yeah, great comparison.
If you want to look at how well elite infantry (with or without armor and air support) operate against not-as-elite enemies, perhaps you should look at examples that actually have those elite infantry in them.
Fair enough.
Pick any other suitable example of a real-world total-war level engagement. I can guarantee you that almost unanimously they will make the 1000 Marine chapter size utterly irrelevant.
Couple more major conflicts (on the scale that we're informed is a regular occurrence in 40k). D-Day: 209,000 Allied (425,000 total) on the first day Siege of Leningrad: 579,985 German over 4 years (against a less well equipped and trained force)
Now, if you genuinely believe that there is a massive technological and capability disparity between Marines and their foes (which I don't believe there is), I suppose a closer equivalent conflict would be the 2003 invasion of Iraq (technologically superior US and UK forces). US, UK and Peshmerga casualties were ~196 killed and 551 wounded. That's survivable to a Marine chapter (although, only if they deployed the bulk of their forces in one go, which is not usually how the fluff portrays them).
However, we get back to the point of Marines being inconsequential in a galactic scale conflict. On a galactic scale with potentially millions of worlds in a state of Total War, the Iraq war (as the closest real-world equivalent to the way Marines would fight) wouldn't even qualify as a blip.
So, we're back to the beginning. Either there are many, many more Marines than we are told about (be it bigger chapters or more of them), or they are actually completely inconsequential and serve only as propaganda to keep the morale of the Guardsmen up.
Warpig1815 wrote: Rune Priests - I really detest the concept that SW's have special snowflake psykers that can magically draw power from 'spirits' on Fenris, even when they're all the way across the other side of the Galaxy. It's not so much the concept in itself, just how it's only the Space Wolves that have this super special connection with their planet. I mean really, the Raven Guard could have Raven-y spirits, or the Salamanders could have Firedrake Spirits (Just to name the two other 'Animal' themed First Founding Chapters) just as reasonably - but only the SW's get this pointless piece of fluff. If all Psykers worked this way, then fair enough. But seeing how Psykers from Chaos, IoM, Eldar and myriad other factions all draw power from the Warp it's just so blatantly fan-boyish that the SW's get 'clean' psykers (Who conveniently avoid all the negatives of the warp) - total gak.
Ahhhhh... rant over.
Well, I'd always thought that was a masterclass in ignorance and irony on the part of the Wolves. Of course their powers come from the warp. They're just too pig-headed to admit it. Same as the Sisters and their 'Acts of Faith'.
The irony comes in that the Wolves destroyed their loyal brothers the Thousand Sons because they were leery of them using psykers and sorcery, and then 10k years later their descendants are running around with psykers who use sorcery themselves!
I always thought that was what made the Wolves fit in with the general dogmatic ignorance of the IoM...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/01 00:38:14
Bobthehero wrote: I think there's only so much you can do to steel and still call it steel.
And the reason I think it refers to modern steel is because plasteel is what's comonly used in the Imperium, and they're not using it there. Its also the reason I think they're still using our measurements units 38000 years in the future, its to give the reader an idea of what is going on
There is a ton you can do with steel, in fact steel is the word for all materials that are mostly iron and have had stuff done to it. Iron is an incredibly common and versitile metal in the universe, the point where fusion and fission meet at the lowest energy state.
With iron being common and versatile, it is likely that even in 38,000 years we will still be making stuff out of it, but as pure iron has undesireable qualities, we will probably be using steel.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
2017/03/01 01:04:13
Subject: what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
Iron has a ton of valuable qualities, it just needs some adjustments to be better. Metallurgy has been such an important part of the advances of materials science.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/03/01 11:36:39
Subject: Re:what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
Warpig1815 wrote: Rune Priests - I really detest the concept that SW's have special snowflake psykers that can magically draw power from 'spirits' on Fenris, even when they're all the way across the other side of the Galaxy. It's not so much the concept in itself, just how it's only the Space Wolves that have this super special connection with their planet. I mean really, the Raven Guard could have Raven-y spirits, or the Salamanders could have Firedrake Spirits (Just to name the two other 'Animal' themed First Founding Chapters) just as reasonably - but only the SW's get this pointless piece of fluff. If all Psykers worked this way, then fair enough. But seeing how Psykers from Chaos, IoM, Eldar and myriad other factions all draw power from the Warp it's just so blatantly fan-boyish that the SW's get 'clean' psykers (Who conveniently avoid all the negatives of the warp) - total gak.
Ahhhhh... rant over.
I quite like the whole runic/ Viking magician aesthetic - but yeah, it is 100% fan-spank and totally baseless. No reason they couldn't keep the "rune" stuff while having RPs operate the way everyone else does.
TBH, I find the SWs are a really interesting chapter very badly executed. I love the idea of Norse/Anglo-Saxon/Brythonic Space Marines, but they seem to be moving away from this base culture and into more and more wolfy mcwolfness. For example, the Curse of the Wulfen - I get that they're Space Wolves, so there has to be an element of wolf totems in there, but to be fair you don't find Salamanders riding massive dragons around, growing horns out of their heads and suffering a 'curse' that turns them into Dragons. Nor do the Raven Guard sprout feathers and ride massive Space Ravens whilst dressing themselves up in chicken-man suits. Even the Black Dragons - who do grow horns out of their head, have a reasonable explanation for it, as it's due to over-stimulated of the ossmodula organ, promoting the growth of bone spurs. But SW's miraculously turning into full on Wolves smacks of badly conceived fluff. I can get away with increased hair growth or growth of canines, but when the whole structure of your leg changes to having wolf feet and your skull changes shape, it's a bit far fetched even by 40k standards. Oh, and now it's suddenly contagious (Because didn't you know that DNA is contagious!)
Even the Canis Helix is ridiculous. Here we have an Imperium where genetic experimentation is strictly forbidden to all except the Magos Biologis, an Imperium where the Emperor sanctioned extermination against those who disobeyed this ruling - but lo and behold, the Space Wolves are the only Chapter that manages to inject a totally unique component into their gene-seed - and nobody cares. All the other Chapters get their traits from mutations within the original gene-seed of their Primarch, but the Space Wolves are special enough that they get a unique component rather than just a malfunctioning one - and it just so happens to turn them into wolves.
Don't get me wrong - I don't hate the Space Wolves, I just wish GW would stop pandering to the Wolf bit and focus more on their wider culture.
Ynneadwraith wrote:Well, I'd always thought that was a masterclass in ignorance and irony on the part of the Wolves. Of course their powers come from the warp. They're just too pig-headed to admit it. Same as the Sisters and their 'Acts of Faith'.
The irony comes in that the Wolves destroyed their loyal brothers the Thousand Sons because they were leery of them using psykers and sorcery, and then 10k years later their descendants are running around with psykers who use sorcery themselves!
I always thought that was what made the Wolves fit in with the general dogmatic ignorance of the IoM...
It could very well be ignorance on the SW's part, but you would have thought hat in the 9000 years before they fell out with the Inquisition over Armageddon, somebody would have called them to task. That said, that's quite a neat explanation - I think I'd prefer to think of the SW's as just being typically bone-headed and ignorant about warp powers.
I absolutely agree with you Warpig there's soooo much potential in the idea of the Space Wolves, and damn near all of it is swept aside in favour of 'Wolfy McWolf Wolves'.
If you want to see just what the realised potential of the Space wolves is, this is the example I always provide. The models, but most importantly the fluff is just utterly perfect: https://ironsleet.com/category/vlka-fenryka/
Hmmm, the whole '9000 years without a peep about psychic powers' could also be explained through sheer bone-headed ignorance I'd be willing to bet people have told them multiple times, but their backwards culture either ignores them, doesn't believe them, or is lost in the sands of time. I've always thought that each generation of Space Wolves falls further and further into barbarism from where they began as a Legion. the whole 'powers of Fenris' thing sounds to me like a sort of chinese-whispers oral history description of psychic powers.
Agreed on the 'only the Space Wolves have altered geneseed' thing. It wouldn't be a problem if that was a little more commonplace. Say, when Big E was creating his genetically engineered supersoldiers a number of his different experiments involved DNA taken from other earth-native life-forms. In fact, that would make quite a lot of sense from a genetic engineering point of view. Why invent a particular string of genetic code when you can lift it from an already existing life-form?
From a purely headcanon perspective, are there any other mutations that could conceivably have been caused by animal DNA?
Also, I'm fairly certain that the Beakie helmets are the tip of the iceberg for Raven Guard chicken suits. You should see them when they're off duty...
Warpig1815 wrote: TBH, I find the SWs are a really interesting chapter very badly executed.
The saddest thing is it wasn't always that way. My Wolves have been kicking around since Codex: Eye of Terror and the 13th Company (which I built my army around and is now retconned away), and I never remember the old 3rd/ 4th Edition stuff being so focused on the furry nonsense. Even the Wulfen were dudes who'd degenerated due to their time lost in the Warp alongside the 13th Company. Never understood the Canis Helix stuff either, although my recollection of the old fluff is that it **was** a mutation - they didn't add it in, it somehow found its way into their geneseed and they wanted rid of it because it was slowly killing the Chapter. Up until 5th Edition they were Space Vikings who used Wolf iconography and symbolism, which is legitimately cool. 5th ramped up the unoriginal "wolf" crap, but it also made the army awesome so nobody minded.
Now all of that is gone. The 7th Edition SW Codex is like a parody of itself. We have Wolf Lord Harald Deathwolf with his Wolf Axe and Wolf Gun wolfing into battle on his Thunderwolf alongside Canis Wolfborn, the Wolf Knight of Fenris, who also rides a Thunderwolf and has Wolf Claws (do wolves **have** claws?), each with their Wolf bodyguards and etc etc. It's very sad.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/01 15:36:12
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2017/03/01 16:00:45
Subject: what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
Ynneadwraith wrote:I absolutely agree with you Warpig there's soooo much potential in the idea of the Space Wolves, and damn near all of it is swept aside in favour of 'Wolfy McWolf Wolves'.
If you want to see just what the realised potential of the Space wolves is, this is the example I always provide. The models, but most importantly the fluff is just utterly perfect: https://ironsleet.com/category/vlka-fenryka/
I'm pretty sure I followed that link on another thread you posted it in - they truly are fantastic, but I shudder to think how much a project like that must have cost in FW Primarchs and the 50:50 Terminator/Power Armour conversions. Worth it though, the models are superb. I like the fluff they write as well - it really does have that lyrical, rolling quality that the old Sagas had.
Ynneadwraith wrote: Hmmm, the whole '9000 years without a peep about psychic powers' could also be explained through sheer bone-headed ignorance I'd be willing to bet people have told them multiple times, but their backwards culture either ignores them, doesn't believe them, or is lost in the sands of time. I've always thought that each generation of Space Wolves falls further and further into barbarism from where they began as a Legion. the whole 'powers of Fenris' thing sounds to me like a sort of chinese-whispers oral history description of psychic powers.
I can very well believe that - but you would think the Rune Priests themselves would know whats up, and you'd assume the Chaplaincy would be setting them straight on the matter in order to prevent any mishaps with possession, corruption and daemonic incursion. It does rather suggest that SW Chaplains aren't doing their job very well if they're taken in by that.
Ynneadwraith wrote:Agreed on the 'only the Space Wolves have altered geneseed' thing. It wouldn't be a problem if that was a little more commonplace. Say, when Big E was creating his genetically engineered supersoldiers a number of his different experiments involved DNA taken from other earth-native life-forms. In fact, that would make quite a lot of sense from a genetic engineering point of view. Why invent a particular string of genetic code when you can lift it from an already existing life-form?
From a purely headcanon perspective, are there any other mutations that could conceivably have been caused by animal DNA?
Agreed, but at the same time the Emperor's whole thing was about keeping humanity pure. In fact, in Book One: Betrayal, it specifically says that the Emperor had to genetically re-engineer Terran human populations specifically because of rampant mutation and gene-experimentation. Hence, I think he'd be pretty adverse to introducing animal DNA into human DNA.
Ynneadwraith wrote:Also, I'm fairly certain that the Beakie helmets are the tip of the iceberg for Raven Guard chicken suits. You should see them when they're off duty...
You know, I think I do recall a high quality pictlog of such an Astartes fighting during a particularly harsh Compliance...
@BBAP - I'd actually like to do a proper Norse/Saxon SW army, but even if I don't paint up a squad of Thunderwolves or Wulfen, it'll always hang over my army that the lore says they exist. One can only hope that Russ makes and appearance in Gathering Storm and purges the SW of all the ridiculous nonsense they've been up to ;D
Bobthehero wrote: I am aware of some differences, but I don't think they would matter when a lascannon struggles to penetrate about 300mm of steel, while the Abrams has about 4 times this amount worth of armor (that's agaisnt chemical energy rounds, kinetic penetration is better, but lascanons aren't kinetic as far as I am aware)
Why not use plasteel instead of steel, then?
Don't argue from ignorance. Look up the actual, observed effects (in universe) of las cannon blasts. Here is a site that had a thriving "versus community" that combed through 40k fluff back in the day and quantified as much of it as they could. Some of the sources conflict with each other, but outside of outliers you can find a general consensus of how tough 40k tanks are and how destructive they're weapons are. Most of the primary sources are quoted in the threads and users like Connor MacLeod show all their math, so you can see what their assumptions are and check their reasoning. There are even some fun discussions, like 40k vs Star Wars or Star Trek by the numbers, although the site in question tends to follow the Curtis Saxton high end interpretation of Star Wars and a rather unflattering interpretation of Star Trek, throwing out TOS and DS9's The Die Is Cast, for example.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Don't argue from ignorance. Look up the actual, observed effects (in universe) of las cannon blasts. Here is a site that had a thriving "versus community" that combed through 40k fluff back in the day and quantified as much of it as they could. Some of the sources conflict with each other, but outside of outliers you can find a general consensus of how tough 40k tanks are and how destructive they're weapons are. Most of the primary sources are quoted in the threads and users like Connor MacLeod show all their math, so you can see what their assumptions are and check their reasoning. There are even some fun discussions, like 40k vs Star Wars or Star Trek by the numbers, although the site in question tends to follow the Curtis Saxton high end interpretation of Star Wars and a rather unflattering interpretation of Star Trek, throwing out TOS and DS9's The Die Is Cast, for example.
Well, in their defense a lot of the TOS stuff was iffy/unqualified, and TDIC didn't make any sense no matter how you looked at it. Their analysis of stuff that could actually be calced like The Pegasus was solid.
Spacebattles has a similarish mindset, and the guy you're discussing has an analysis up at both.
2017/03/01 19:04:17
Subject: what piece of 40k fluff do you hate the most?
I am not saying their ST analysis isn't valuable or even accurate, but it became old every time high end incidents were dismissed out of hand. "Well, Q just has a cloaking device and very fast transporters. We never see him do anything that can't be explained away as a high def Holodeck illusion." "Can't even shoot through shipping crates." And so on.
They did the same thing with Babylon Five.
"Those explosions in Chrysalis and TCOS CAN't be what they appear. If shadows had beams that powerful they never would have built a planet killer."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/01 19:05:42
My biggest complaint about the fluff is ususally based around the people talking about the fluff. Its almost like people take every written word as iron clad cannon even when GW themselves have said that the fluff is only a starting point for your own personal interpetation. And how can everything be true cannon when they have two directly opposing statements both claming to be true? Its simple, all the fluff is true and none of it is as well.
People complain how the SW are the special snowflakes and how they are the only one doing this and that... However, (and one of the few things GW was brilliant about) there are supposedly 1000 chapters and only what, maybe 70 named ones, 25ish with actual seperate fluff. How do we know there arn't another 40 "unnamed" chapters that have all the same benifits as the SWs. How there chapter psychers dont draw their power from the warp, but their home planet instead. Or 60 other chapters that tell the HLOT to sod off every now and then, or 200 others that have some secret mutation or other inbred annomally.
GW obviously can't write about them all, but there is no reason you the player cant take any number of those ideas and make it your own.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/02 03:47:05
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