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luke1705 wrote: Have we actually seen the list of command benefits yet? I've seen special rules but no actual list of command benefits.
As far as we know, there are none aside from Strength from Death. But since most meta-detachments like this have a Warlord Trait re-roll and we haven't seen that yet, it is possible that there are other benefits and a page that hasn't been leaked.
From someone with the book (these are in the ipad glossary I think,so sort of confirmed)
- Leader of the Reborn : standard warlord trait re-roll
- Our Souls we entrust : all units gain Stubborn. A unit from the detachment within 7" of another units from the same detachment don't make morale cheks when it loses 25%+ of it's models
- Warhost of Ynnead: if you got 7+ units, you can select another unit to make a Soulburst action
Ok so sounds like no obsec. Could you elaborate on the warhost of ynnead? Are you saying that as long as you have 7 units....on the table....that you get a free soulburst action each turn?
Exact wording is "If this detachment includes 7 or more units, you can select one additional unit to make a Soulburst action each time a unit is destroyed."
Sweet baby Jesus. Does that mean that you get the benefit all game long?
I restate, sweet baby Jesus. So long Obsec. Can't say you didn't do anything for us but this is bonkers
not sure what your asking, the effect of soulburst is immediately resolved and can only effect a unit once a turn, so it doesn't last any longer then once it triggers. The detachment benefit sounds ambiguous, but since it says "includes seven of more units" (emphasis mine) which is a present tense of the word I would imagine you lose the benefit once you drop below 7 similar to how canticles of the omnisia is a sliding rule. I am sure it will be a hot topic for debate until FAQ's though.
Ok, so I did some list writing with the reborn warhost detachment.
One thing I did notice as I was working on some combinations, is how much Yvraine and the Visarch can tank between themselves, even without psychic buffs. Now their stats are no great, with a 4++ and 3+ between them, but the ability to pass off wounds, and regen wounds is kinda neat.
So you place Yvraine at the head of a big ass unit of guardians. The Visarch is nearby, but not the closest model. Put a good 5-6 guardians closer to Yvraine. Start taking wounds on Yvraine. If she fails a couple of saves, pass a couple of wounds over to the Visarch, using the ability to auto pass look out sirs. So now maybe the Visarch has taken a couple of wounds. You may now start ROLLING los, and passing these wounds to Guardians. If a guardian dies, both Yvraine & the Visarch regen a wound on a 4+. Both Yvraine & the Visarch have eternal warrior of course, so no need to worry about high strength.
I’ve written a list to take to a casual style tournament in a month or so. Hoping to get the models painted, but I’m mainly just looking to try out the new rules. Here’s what I’m thinking;
Triumvirate formation; Yvraine, Visarch, Yncarne
Reborn Warhost;
Farseer
Spiritseer
20 Guardians w/ Warlock
5 Kabalites w/ Venom
10 Black Storm Guardians w/ 2 Meltas
5 Fire Dragons w/ Exarch, riding in a FA Venom
Shadowseer, ML2, Mask of Secrets
5 Warp Spiders w/ Exarch
6 Swooping Hawks w/ Exarch.
Farseer is warlord, and looks to get the 14'' Soulburst, or choose psychic powers trait.
Choosing Psychic powers is crazy with a farseer. Fortune, Forewarning and Doom please!
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Not gonna put those 3 Aspects w/ Exarchs in an Aspect Host for +1 BS?
I'll say one thing for Strength from Death: You will want to be specific in the order you shoot things. If you trigger a unit to Soulburst and shoot, it won't be able to shoot again that turn. The rule only allows for being a repeat action, not simply unlocking a free action.
Goobi2 wrote: Not gonna put those 3 Aspects w/ Exarchs in an Aspect Host for +1 BS?
I'll say one thing for Strength from Death: You will want to be specific in the order you shoot things. If you trigger a unit to Soulburst and shoot, it won't be able to shoot again that turn. The rule only allows for being a repeat action, not simply unlocking a free action.
Yup, will add the aspect host!
I’ve got no idea what you’re talking about with repeating an action. All the rules leaks I’ve seen so far, state nothing of the sort.
Can anyone comment on the formation bonus for the Triumvirate? I'd not seen anything on it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/10 04:45:49
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I mean Strength from Death can let you make a shooting action with a unit, even if you already have that turn. If you made a unit shoot with Strength from Death first, it could not shoot a second time that turn as per the rules it had already shot that turn. So say you have two units, one within 7" of a target and another outside of it. If you shot with the outside unit first and used the Strength from Death on the inside unit to immediately shoot, you would only get those two shooting actions. Had the closer unit already shot, it would be allowed to shoot again. That would allow for three shooting actions between those two units.
Say you were in a Reborn Warhost with more than 7 units: Two of your units (say Warp Spiders) are within 7'' of a couple of enemy transports. The first unit shoots and destroys a transport. You now have the option of triggering SfD on both your units. However, since shooting with the 2nd unit with SfD would stop you from just shooting normally, you should only activate it for the unit that has already fired. The 2nd unit then has a chance to activate its own SfD by shooting and destroying the other transport.
You also wouldn't want to preemptively activate a unit's PfD for Movement (a safe distance from the target) or Charging (before getting some shooting in) in a fashion that can inhibit your shooting ability.
The point is that you need to be extra careful who shoots what and in what order.
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Also, I believe the Formation bonus for the Triumvirate is something like Fearless within 12'' while two of the formation models are on the board and Fearless table wide when all three are on the board. Something along those lines. And the +1 to their respective get a wound back rolls.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/10 06:09:18
Goobi2 wrote: I mean Strength from Death can let you make a shooting action with a unit, even if you already have that turn. If you made a unit shoot with Strength from Death first, it could not shoot a second time that turn as per the rules it had already shot that turn. So say you have two units, one within 7" of a target and another outside of it. If you shot with the outside unit first and used the Strength from Death on the inside unit to immediately shoot, you would only get those two shooting actions. Had the closer unit already shot, it would be allowed to shoot again. That would allow for three shooting actions for those two units.
Interesting, I’ll have to check the BRB as to what it says.
Having done some thinking on the uses of PFD, I think the major implications will be in your opponents turn, and trying to bait their firepower into shooting/assaulting units to trigger PFD. It's why I've got those black guardian meltas in the army.
Turn 1, I try and bait PFD using the two venom units. Looking for PFD to advance the guardian blob. Turn 2, the hawks, spiders, and guardians look to trigger it for them.
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I just noticed the new avatar has eternal warrior but the old one doesn't. I am now really really mad.
Would a webway portal archon be good in a unit of fire dragons? Point and click removal of any unit on the table seems great. Also are kabalite/guardians good in 20 man squads, or would it be better to put them in transports?
"People say on their first meeting a Man and an Ork exchanged a long, hard look, didn't care much for what they saw, and shot each other dead."
Galef wrote: And with the range of the Scatterlaser, it will be quite easy to Deep Strike far away, right next to a LoS blocking piece of terrain, in side/rear armour, plink your shots, the scoot out of LoS.
This will absolutely be standard for Eldar tourney lists
Indeed, such lists can be absolutely mean.
And its part of GW's success these days. Release supplementary books with new strong formations. A must-have for each Eldar player.
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Don Savik wrote: I just noticed the new avatar has eternal warrior but the old one doesn't. I am now really really mad.
Would a webway portal archon be good in a unit of fire dragons? Point and click removal of any unit on the table seems great. Also are kabalite/guardians good in 20 man squads, or would it be better to put them in transports?
If you’re looking to WWP something, Wraithguard are probably a better option. More expensive, but they get T6. Cannons are amazing for knights and single high value models. Just for the chance to roll a 6 on destroyer. The scythes are better for units of…pretty much anything and everything. They’re also never going to get charged because of their crazy overwatch. If any of these units succeed in killing something, they’ll get a soulburst action, to potentially kill another thing
On guardians/kabalites – there’s much better options if you want to put things in transports. Fire dragons in a venom is a good idea. I will be trialing 20 guardians on foot, with warlock and a couple of attached characters. I think it’ll be a solid unit. Mostly because their huge footprint means they’ll get soulburst actions easily. The revenant power that gives +1 A, WS, BS, L & I will be pretty amazing with 20 bodies. Throw in the option for things like prescience, misfortune, runes of battle powers and doom…and they can take out pretty much anything in combat.
I’ve allied DE a bit in the past, and 5 kabalites in a venom with two splinter cannons is a solid little unit for a very small cost. They also make a great way to get soulburst actions. Venom’s explode…very easily. Keep it within 7’ of a unit and get a free move!
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Considering my pure Harlequin list had to take extra voidweavers and other rubbish to fill points, i can instead throw a Farseer, a pair of windrider squads, and the Jest and be able to charge if someone nearby bites it?
Heck, dont even have to worry about overkill anymore if there is an enemy nearby.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
2017/02/10 09:56:58
Subject: Re:Gathering storm II Ynari Aeldari Tactica
Haywire grenades also become a bit better on Harlequin characters, because they're initiative 7.
You can assault a transport with a single HP left, destroy it with the grenade at initiative step 7, soulburst-charge the unit that was inside and still have your initiative 6 attacks.
There are many combos that can rely on assaulting a transport, and then either shooting or assaulting the passengers.
Quick question as I dont have the book yet, but should later today. In the Ulthwe Strike Force, we now know they still get the Eldar Battle Focus, but do they gain from the new Strength rule? Or would you want something of yours up there with them so they can benefit from it if something in your USF dies?
nintura wrote: Quick question as I dont have the book yet, but should later today. In the Ulthwe Strike Force, we now know they still get the Eldar Battle Focus, but do they gain from the new Strength rule? Or would you want something of yours up there with them so they can benefit from it if something in your USF dies?
They get Strength from Death when taken as a part of the Reborn Warhost instead of an USF. If they are in the Warhost they lose Battle Focus. So if you want something to benefit from SfD for your USF, you want to add a Ynnari detachment.
Since an Black Guardians can't be close enough to benefit from SfD via Webway Assault, you may consider advancing other units up close to take advantage of their sudden, precise firepower. (Or simply nearby, like you suggested, take advantage of the Black Guardians potential death. Though, that's not quite as effective as two PfD units.)
nintura wrote: Quick question as I dont have the book yet, but should later today. In the Ulthwe Strike Force, we now know they still get the Eldar Battle Focus, but do they gain from the new Strength rule? Or would you want something of yours up there with them so they can benefit from it if something in your USF dies?
They get Strength from Death when taken as a part of the Reborn Warhost instead of an USF. If they are in the Warhost they lose Battle Focus. So if you want something to benefit from SfD for your USF, you want to add a Ynnari detachment.
Since an Black Guardians can't be close enough to benefit from SfD via Webway Assault, you may consider advancing other units up close to take advantage of their sudden, precise firepower. (Or simply nearby, like you suggested, take advantage of the Black Guardians potential death. Though, that's not quite as effective as two PfD units.)
So you can't really give your USF both rules correct? Also, you CAN be close enough. Remember, when disembarking you can deploy them up to 6" away.
I think it's because I'm still getting detachments confused. Basically the USF is a box and the Ynnari detachment is another box of the same size, and you can't fit one into the other.
Black Guardian units have Battle Focus, but if they are taken as Elite choices in a Reborn Warhost, they swap it for SfD. The USF is not a valid option for the Reborn Warhost, so if you are taking your BGs in the USF, they will have Battle Focus and not SfD.
Be carefully about using Transports with BGs, Nintura. There is no BG Wave Serpent and there is no indication that Webway Assault extended to DTs, so we must assume that it doesn't.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/10 13:43:50
They don't have a dedicated transport, so you'll need to spend a fast attack slot to get one. The transport wont benefit from Webway Assault to get deepstrike, let alone turn one. So you'd need to include an Archon, and your transport would have to be a Wave Serpent.
If you are using an Archon's WWP to bring them in, you might as well use normal Guardians to save points since the Archon wouldn't be able to come in 1st turn and gets precision deepstrike anyway.
So yes, Black Guardians can be in position after deepstrike to use PfD, but the cost to make it happen is very high. The same task could be done with regular Guardians using a dedicated transport instead of a fast attack.
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That said, I am extremely excited about using an USF. It opens a world of options!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/10 13:45:47
Damn. So the only black guardians that can really benefit from the first turn deep strike are those that have deep strike naturally? I was really hoping to have them plus their wave serpents able to DS without scatter with meltas.
I have a hard time understanding the Deldar stuff as I've never read the codex or played the army. So essentially, there's no reason to have the USF if you're only wanting guardians out of it? (Not a fan of jetbikes because I dont feel like defending them every game....)
Also, dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to break the game or list, I just want to fully understand my options going forward.
My goal was to make a Ynnari list based on Ulthwe Eldar that converted to worshiping Ynnead. So essentially Ulthwe units backed up by Ynnari Eldar.
I wanted to be able to have a big group of Black Guardians that can deep strike T1 without scatter, taking control of a section of board while hiding behind the wave serpents for cover, letting my opponent chew on them for a couple turns while the rest of the Ynnari move up the board into range.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/10 14:10:46
Thought of something interesting to do with SfD & melee units with no Grenades. Since using a Soulburst to assault a unit that is already resolving its attacks forces you to continue resolving at the current Initiative step (potentally losing HoW or regular attacks if that step has passed), what about using a suicide unit to brunt the enemy attacks, then charge in with a unit that will strike at I1?
Example: Step 1: Position Shining Spears or Incubi within charge range of the target and Soulburst range of the suicide unit. Step 2: Use suicide unit, lets say 1-2 Khymera, to assault the target Step 3: The target obliterates the suicide unit at their Initiative, triggering Soulburst Step 4: Spears or Incubi use Soulburst to assault the target through cover. Step 5: The target has already attacked and cannot do so again, continue resolving the combat. Spears or Incubi strike at I1.
Thoughts?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/10 14:26:17
Wait, why use the middleman? You could use a unit of, say, Skyweavers and assault a unit in the open, wipe them out, and charge a unit in cover. You hit at I6, then again at the I1 step.
Also, here's a question that hasn't come up yet: ICs and Soulburst. Let's say a unit is joined by an IC, and they use Soulburst to charge. I'm assuming everyone agrees the IC and squad both get to use the Soulburst action to charge...but can they in theory charge two different targets? Ics can split off at any time by leaving coherency with the unit, right?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
nintura wrote: Damn. So the only black guardians that can really benefit from the first turn deep strike are those that have deep strike naturally? I was really hoping to have them plus their wave serpents able to DS without scatter with meltas.
I have a hard time understanding the Deldar stuff as I've never read the codex or played the army. So essentially, there's no reason to have the USF if you're only wanting guardians out of it? (Not a fan of jetbikes because I dont feel like defending them every game....)
Also, dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to break the game or list, I just want to fully understand my options going forward.
My goal was to make a Ynnari list based on Ulthwe Eldar that converted to worshiping Ynnead. So essentially Ulthwe units backed up by Ynnari Eldar.
I wanted to be able to have a big group of Black Guardians that can deep strike T1 without scatter, taking control of a section of board while hiding behind the wave serpents for cover, letting my opponent chew on them for a couple turns while the rest of the Ynnari move up the board into range.
The only thing you can't do out of all that is Deepstrike Wave Serpents. You can drop in units of Black Guardians on turn 1 exactly where you want them, as long as it's not within 9" of an enemy.(Though I'll probably use Walkers) You can then shoot/Battle Focus as you choose.
Four Guardian units worth of fire power is enough to take a decent chunk out of enemy forces, so it will definitely help pave the way for Ynnari forces. If you can get those Ynnari forces up the board fast enough, you can even take advantage of the Guardians kills (and possibly the Guardians's deaths on the Enemy turn). Sadly, the Black Guardians won't have Wave Serpents to hide behind. However, with their precision deepstrike and Battle Focus, they can easily find good cover to hide behind.
the_scotsman wrote: Wait, why use the middleman? You could use a unit of, say, Skyweavers and assault a unit in the open, wipe them out, and charge a unit in cover. You hit at I6, then again at the I1 step.
Also, here's a question that hasn't come up yet: ICs and Soulburst. Let's say a unit is joined by an IC, and they use Soulburst to charge. I'm assuming everyone agrees the IC and squad both get to use the Soulburst action to charge...but can they in theory charge two different targets? Ics can split off at any time by leaving coherency with the unit, right?
You use the middleman because it allows you to control the situation better. The enemy is not always going to have his units so close, nor is there a guarantee that you can wipe the first unit to gain the Soulburst. It is pretty likely, however that an enemy can wipe a Khmyera. But I think both tactics are sound.
And no, IC's can only leave/join in YOUR movement phase. I don't think Eldar have any way to gain a Soulburst action in the movement phase. You could use the Soullburt for the additional move to detach the IC, but then you have used your Soulburst and cannot charge with it (you could still charge normally though in your actual Assault phase)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/10 15:00:36
luke1705 wrote: Have we actually seen the list of command benefits yet? I've seen special rules but no actual list of command benefits.
As far as we know, there are none aside from Strength from Death. But since most meta-detachments like this have a Warlord Trait re-roll and we haven't seen that yet, it is possible that there are other benefits and a page that hasn't been leaked.
From someone with the book (these are in the ipad glossary I think,so sort of confirmed)
- Leader of the Reborn : standard warlord trait re-roll
- Our Souls we entrust : all units gain Stubborn. A unit from the detachment within 7" of another units from the same detachment don't make morale cheks when it loses 25%+ of it's models
- Warhost of Ynnead: if you got 7+ units, you can select another unit to make a Soulburst action
Ok so sounds like no obsec. Could you elaborate on the warhost of ynnead? Are you saying that as long as you have 7 units....on the table....that you get a free soulburst action each turn?
Exact wording is "If this detachment includes 7 or more units, you can select one additional unit to make a Soulburst action each time a unit is destroyed."
Sweet baby Jesus. Does that mean that you get the benefit all game long?
I restate, sweet baby Jesus. So long Obsec. Can't say you didn't do anything for us but this is bonkers
not sure what your asking, the effect of soulburst is immediately resolved and can only effect a unit once a turn, so it doesn't last any longer then once it triggers. The detachment benefit sounds ambiguous, but since it says "includes seven of more units" (emphasis mine) which is a present tense of the word I would imagine you lose the benefit once you drop below 7 similar to how canticles of the omnisia is a sliding rule. I am sure it will be a hot topic for debate until FAQ's though.
EDIT:
Just checked the wording on canticles and it's definitely very different. At minimum, you don't need the units to be on the field (could keep several small units in reserves - beast masters OP!)
Regardless, even if you accept that there still have to be 7 units not dead in the army, the only real way I've heard to counter the soulburst is to slim down our units and NOT kill them outright in their turn, but this would mean that that is counterproductive since you leave us operating at a good clip of efficiency throughout.
Truly, though, I imagine that this will be a point of contention in YMDC and hope this gets resolved one way or the other sooner rather than later.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/10 15:07:21
nintura wrote: Damn. So the only black guardians that can really benefit from the first turn deep strike are those that have deep strike naturally? I was really hoping to have them plus their wave serpents able to DS without scatter with meltas.
I have a hard time understanding the Deldar stuff as I've never read the codex or played the army. So essentially, there's no reason to have the USF if you're only wanting guardians out of it? (Not a fan of jetbikes because I dont feel like defending them every game....)
Also, dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to break the game or list, I just want to fully understand my options going forward.
My goal was to make a Ynnari list based on Ulthwe Eldar that converted to worshiping Ynnead. So essentially Ulthwe units backed up by Ynnari Eldar.
I wanted to be able to have a big group of Black Guardians that can deep strike T1 without scatter, taking control of a section of board while hiding behind the wave serpents for cover, letting my opponent chew on them for a couple turns while the rest of the Ynnari move up the board into range.
The only thing you can't do out of all that is Deepstrike Wave Serpents. You can drop in units of Black Guardians on turn 1 exactly where you want them, as long as it's not within 9" of an enemy.(Though I'll probably use Walkers) You can then shoot/Battle Focus as you choose.
Four Guardian units worth of fire power is enough to take a decent chunk out of enemy forces, so it will definitely help pave the way for Ynnari forces. If you can get those Ynnari forces up the board fast enough, you can even take advantage of the Guardians kills (and possibly the Guardians's deaths on the Enemy turn). Sadly, the Black Guardians won't have Wave Serpents to hide behind. However, with their precision deepstrike and Battle Focus, they can easily find good cover to hide behind.
Instead of hiding behind Wave Serpents, you could instead do the following:
Deep strike anything USF and then move and turboboost Ynnari Skyweavers close to their targets, shoot things dead with USF (and battle focus away if applicable), then SfD charge Ynnari Skyweavers first turn, practically anywhere on the table. You can also do this with reavers.... Alpha strike combinations with USF and Ynnari SfD combo are superflous.
The question then becomes can SfD let you assault despite having Turbo-boosted or after firing a heavy/rapid fire weapon. As fantastic as that would be, I don't believe RAW would allow it.
Deep strike anything USF and then move and turboboost Ynnari Skyweavers close to their targets, shoot things dead with USF (and battle focus away if applicable), then SfD charge Ynnari Skyweavers first turn, practically anywhere on the table. You can also do this with reavers.... Alpha strike combinations with USF and Ynnari SfD combo are superflous.
I do not think that would work though. SfD allows the extra actions "even if they have already done so this turn", but I do not think it overrides the unit's ability to do said action if other factors prevent it.
Since you cannot assault after a Turbo-boost, SfD will not allow you to preform anything other than additional shooting/turboboost or another move. The same might apply to using a Soulburst to assault after firing Rapid-fire or Heavy weapons. Basically, Soulburst gives permission to make additional actions "as if it were your X phase", but it does not give us permission to ignore other restrictions, such as the above.
When resolving Soulburst, you have to ask "can I do this if it were my X phase?" If the answer is normally No, you cannot perform that action.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/10 15:19:42
Deep strike anything USF and then move and turboboost Ynnari Skyweavers close to their targets, shoot things dead with USF (and battle focus away if applicable), then SfD charge Ynnari Skyweavers first turn, practically anywhere on the table. You can also do this with reavers.... Alpha strike combinations with USF and Ynnari SfD combo are superflous.
Would that work though? SfD allows the extra actions "even if they have already done so this turn", but I am not so sure it overrides the units ability to do said action if other factors prevent it.
Since you cannot assault after a Turbo-boost, I do not think SfD will allow you to preform anything other that additional shooting/turboboost or another move.
The same might apply to using a Soulburst to assault after firing Rapid-fire or Heavy weapons.
Basically, Soulburst gives permission to make additional actions "as if it were your X phase", but it does not give us permission to ignore other restrictions, such as the above.
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Well, I read up Turbo-boost rule again and it is in fact incompatible with entire SfD concept with its "any voluntary action" phrase. I stand corrected.
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