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Oh, I was only thinking you could not charge, but could still shoot/move. But you are right, after Turbo-boosting, no voluntary action can be made.

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Goobi2 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Damn. So the only black guardians that can really benefit from the first turn deep strike are those that have deep strike naturally? I was really hoping to have them plus their wave serpents able to DS without scatter with meltas.

I have a hard time understanding the Deldar stuff as I've never read the codex or played the army. So essentially, there's no reason to have the USF if you're only wanting guardians out of it? (Not a fan of jetbikes because I dont feel like defending them every game....)

Also, dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to break the game or list, I just want to fully understand my options going forward.


My goal was to make a Ynnari list based on Ulthwe Eldar that converted to worshiping Ynnead. So essentially Ulthwe units backed up by Ynnari Eldar.

I wanted to be able to have a big group of Black Guardians that can deep strike T1 without scatter, taking control of a section of board while hiding behind the wave serpents for cover, letting my opponent chew on them for a couple turns while the rest of the Ynnari move up the board into range.

The only thing you can't do out of all that is Deepstrike Wave Serpents. You can drop in units of Black Guardians on turn 1 exactly where you want them, as long as it's not within 9" of an enemy.(Though I'll probably use Walkers) You can then shoot/Battle Focus as you choose.

Four Guardian units worth of fire power is enough to take a decent chunk out of enemy forces, so it will definitely help pave the way for Ynnari forces. If you can get those Ynnari forces up the board fast enough, you can even take advantage of the Guardians kills (and possibly the Guardians's deaths on the Enemy turn). Sadly, the Black Guardians won't have Wave Serpents to hide behind. However, with their precision deepstrike and Battle Focus, they can easily find good cover to hide behind.

I may be missing something obvious, but how do the BGs deepstrike without Wave Serpents?

 nintura wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Damn. So the only black guardians that can really benefit from the first turn deep strike are those that have deep strike naturally? I was really hoping to have them plus their wave serpents able to DS without scatter with meltas.

I have a hard time understanding the Deldar stuff as I've never read the codex or played the army. So essentially, there's no reason to have the USF if you're only wanting guardians out of it? (Not a fan of jetbikes because I dont feel like defending them every game....)

Also, dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to break the game or list, I just want to fully understand my options going forward.


My goal was to make a Ynnari list based on Ulthwe Eldar that converted to worshiping Ynnead. So essentially Ulthwe units backed up by Ynnari Eldar.

I wanted to be able to have a big group of Black Guardians that can deep strike T1 without scatter, taking control of a section of board while hiding behind the wave serpents for cover, letting my opponent chew on them for a couple turns while the rest of the Ynnari move up the board into range.

The only thing you can't do out of all that is Deepstrike Wave Serpents. You can drop in units of Black Guardians on turn 1 exactly where you want them, as long as it's not within 9" of an enemy.(Though I'll probably use Walkers) You can then shoot/Battle Focus as you choose.

Four Guardian units worth of fire power is enough to take a decent chunk out of enemy forces, so it will definitely help pave the way for Ynnari forces. If you can get those Ynnari forces up the board fast enough, you can even take advantage of the Guardians kills (and possibly the Guardians's deaths on the Enemy turn). Sadly, the Black Guardians won't have Wave Serpents to hide behind. However, with their precision deepstrike and Battle Focus, they can easily find good cover to hide behind.

I may be missing something obvious, but how do the BGs deepstrike without Wave Serpents?

All the black guardian units have deepstrike, don't scatter, and must be placed 9" away from an enemy unit.

Scuse me while I change my pants.

As far as the reavers, you still get your deployment zone, a 12" move, and then can charge if you're close enough to receive the death bonus. Then charge again on your Assault phase. I really need to read the Deldar codex. I just want to do a normal type army list for now that allows me to do some things that I find fluffy. I'll worry about annihilating my opponents later So I can then DS first turn the war walkers? Too bad Wasps dont fit under that...

This makes me want to make some custom templates to show a webway assault in action. Place it on the ground and then place the models on top

 coblen wrote:

All the black guardian units have deepstrike, don't scatter, and must be placed 9" away from an enemy unit.

And that is straight up just what is on their unit rules. Black Guardians can be taken as Elites for any Eldar army or in the Ynnari Reborn Warhost

If you take them in an USF, you get 1-4 units that get Preferred Enemy if the opponent has any Chaos units. And not necessarily against those Chaos units, but just because those unit exist in the other army. If the USF have its max 4 units, you may roll for reserves on Turn 1.
You must be using the USF with 4 units to get the Turn 1 rolls, otherwise they follow the normal Reserve rules (rolling at the start of Turn 2)

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Man that sounds so effective. It's kinda like playing a drop pod army. Bout time some non-imperial army gets to DS on turn 1

Seems to me like the new options make the current top choices (scatterbikes, Warp Spiders, and Wraithknights) even stronger -- anyone thinking that anything we're seeing here will shake up the tournament meta enough to allow other units into Eldar forces? It certainly becomes a lot easier to WWP wraithguard in!

 nintura wrote:
Man that sounds so effective. It's kinda like playing a drop pod army. Bout time some non-imperial army gets to DS on turn 1

It is better that a Drop Pod army because out units are more effective, we could get all the units in, not just half, and we don't have to spend points on Drop pods.

I could easily see an entire army of just multiple USFs that null deploys, gives 1st turn to the opponent, then drops in to annihilate units.
My current plan is to take a CAD with an Autarch, minimum bikes, a Skathach WK & either a VSG or Landing pad (maybe some Hornets). The rest of the army is a USF made of all bikes (maybe 1 BG unit on foot with Meltas, still not sold they are any good at their point).
I'll probably only deploy the WK and the Fort, then all the bikes drop in and pew-pew.

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So we know Craftworld Eldar seem to lose Battle Focus if part of the Reborn Warhost, do we know if the Dark Eldar lose Power from Pain, Combat Drugs or both?

Nevermind, I found it. In case anyone was wondering, they keep Combat Drugs.

 Galef wrote:
Thought of something interesting to do with SfD & melee units with no Grenades.
Since using a Soulburst to assault a unit that is already resolving its attacks forces you to continue resolving at the current Initiative step (potentally losing HoW or regular attacks if that step has passed), what about using a suicide unit to brunt the enemy attacks, then charge in with a unit that will strike at I1?

Example:
Step 1: Position Shining Spears or Incubi within charge range of the target and Soulburst range of the suicide unit.
Step 2: Use suicide unit, lets say 1-2 Khymera, to assault the target
Step 3: The target obliterates the suicide unit at their Initiative, triggering Soulburst
Step 4: Spears or Incubi use Soulburst to assault the target through cover.
Step 5: The target has already attacked and cannot do so again, continue resolving the combat. Spears or Incubi strike at I1.

Thoughts?

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How about with watithblades with ghost axes?

This is why I love this army and the USF detachment. I wanted to play Ulthwe but not be limited to Guardians to be fluffy. Now this is an answer.

I think the Ynari can play a deep strike heavy army to great effect. Turn 1 deepstriking scatter laser bikes onto the objectives you need or into the rear of vehicles. turn 2+ D-scythe wraith guard are great to deep strike in. They could use a WWP or raider. The WWP cost more but is completely accurate. The Raider is cheap at 55pts and being open top you can shoot from any point on the raider, and the raiders design makes it easy to pivot so you get closer, then you can disembark 6" so it is really hard not to get into the perfect position. I think another great option is a archon with armor of misery and a shadowseer with the mask in a raider to give a -4ld bubble within 6" and a -2ld bubble within 12" This combined with psychic shriek is absolutely devastating, plus pinning shots from the shadowseer.

I think deploying a single wraithknight and an autarch may be an extremely common sight.

I want to get that Psychic flyer and drop nova blasts

 lambsandlions wrote:
I think the Ynari can play a deep strike heavy army to great effect. Turn 1 deepstriking scatter laser bikes onto the objectives you need or into the rear of vehicles. turn 2+ D-scythe wraith guard are great to deep strike in. They could use a WWP or raider. The WWP cost more but is completely accurate. The Raider is cheap at 55pts and being open top you can shoot from any point on the raider, and the raiders design makes it easy to pivot so you get closer, then you can disembark 6" so it is really hard not to get into the perfect position. I think another great option is a archon with armor of misery and a shadowseer with the mask in a raider to give a -4ld bubble within 6" and a -2ld bubble within 12" This combined with psychic shriek is absolutely devastating, plus pinning shots from the shadowseer.

I think deploying a single wraithknight and an autarch may be an extremely common sight.

A couple things: The turn 1 deepstrike no scatter would not be with Ynnari units, but Eldar units in the uSF, but you can allie and do the saem thing
Autarchs do not need to be on the board for the reserve bonus, just in the army, so just deploying a WK is all you'd need.
I'm pretty excited for all the possibilites


Side question for the group: Have we discussed it the Wraithhost in a Reborn Warhost gets Battlefocus? Normally Battle Focus is a unit's special rule that gets replaced with SfD, but the Wraithhost specifically grants its units BF.

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Well, is there anything that states a unit CANNOT have both? If not, I can't see why not. If they have SfD due to Ynnari detachment, but then gain Battle Focus from a formation, I don't see a problem.

It would seem to indicate that BF & PfP are lost if the model is of the Ynnari faction. There is no indication that it can be gained again.
Since there is no "sequencing" for when bonuses are gained during army building, we would have to assume that BF is lost and remains lost for as long as the Wraiths are of the Ynnari Faction.

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A few tricks I picked up while reading the book:

1. Get 2 big squads of scatbikes and add a shadowseer to each. Cast veil of tears and bam they got an almost just as good 'invis' if you stay at long range.

2. Scatter a few scatbikes units in front of these two big scatbike units. Since they don't have the pseudo-invis, they will most likely die first. If you have more than 7 units (easy), both of the big scatbikes unit will soulburst shooting.

3. Sprinkle in a farseer with guide/prescience for more fun.

4. Wraithknight should look for mid-board scouting units. Assuming you do find one, move within 7" during movement phase. Use the scatbikes to kill the mid-board unit. Wraithknight soulburst move another 12" and potentially setup a 1st turn charge.

5. This one may need a rule-check. Turbo-boost venom/raider with super melee unit within right up to 1" of enemy unit(s). When venom/raider is destroyed the melee unit charges in opponent's turn. There is no way to kill the melee unit before it soulburst charge (except for overwatch?). Essentially venom/raider now becomes an awesome protective assault vehicle like it should be.

6. Ensure you have 7 units (easy). Take two units of raiders and race/turbo across the board. When one of the raider pops, two units activate soulburst. You could potentially charge. You could also have 10-man on surviving raider open fire with splinter rack ... add some medusae for taste.

7. Always pair up your units. With the rule of no morale check when you lost 25% if you are near to another Ynnari units, your windriders (see point 1 and 2) are now pseudo-fearless.

8. Archon/wwp + 5 wraithguard is good. Archon/wwp + 4 Medusae in Venom/Raider could be just as fun. When you land, template/kill 1-2 MeQ units. When the venom/raider explodes template/kill more stuff. Good vs 'castle'. Could also be use without Archon/wwp for a cheaper unit. Could be paired with the 5 wraithguards. Could also be use 5 fire dragons.

Will add more if I see any.

 Galef wrote:

Spoiler:

It would seem to indicate that BF & PfP are lost if the model is of the Ynnari faction. There is no indication that it can be gained again.
Since there is no "sequencing" for when bonuses are gained during army building, we would have to assume that BF is lost and remains lost for as long as the Wraiths are of the Ynnari Faction.

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Yep, key being "if they have them". Makes sense. Being able to move 6 normally, plus 6 from SfD, then running d6, plus S flamers.... seems gross. Or moving 6 plus d6 then shooting twice is really gross.

glnngu wrote:

Spoiler:

A few tricks I picked up while reading the book:

1. Get 2 big squads of scatbikes and add a shadowseer to each. Cast veil of tears and bam they got an almost just as good 'invis' if you stay at long range.

2. Scatter a few scatbikes units in front of these two big scatbike units. Since they don't have the pseudo-invis, they will most likely die first. If you have more than 7 units (easy), both of the big scatbikes unit will soulburst shooting.

3. Sprinkle in a farseer with guide/prescience for more fun.

4. Wraithknight should look for mid-board scouting units. Assuming you do find one, move within 7" during movement phase. Use the scatbikes to kill the mid-board unit. Wraithknight soulburst move another 12" and potentially setup a 1st turn charge.

5. This one may need a rule-check. Turbo-boost venom/raider with super melee unit within right up to 1" of enemy unit(s). When venom/raider is destroyed the melee unit charges in opponent's turn. There is no way to kill the melee unit before it soulburst charge (except for overwatch?). Essentially venom/raider now becomes an awesome protective assault vehicle like it should be.

6. Ensure you have 7 units (easy). Take two units of raiders and race/turbo across the board. When one of the raider pops, two units activate soulburst. You could potentially charge. You could also have 10-man on surviving raider open fire with splinter rack ... add some medusae for taste.

7. Always pair up your units. With the rule of no morale check when you lost 25% if you are near to another Ynnari units, your windriders (see point 1 and 2) are now pseudo-fearless.

8. Archon/wwp + 5 wraithguard is good. Archon/wwp + 4 Medusae in Venom/Raider could be just as fun. When you land, template/kill 1-2 MeQ units. When the venom/raider explodes template/kill more stuff. Good vs 'castle'. Could also be use without Archon/wwp for a cheaper unit. Could be paired with the 5 wraithguards. Could also be use 5 fire dragons.

1. Expensive, but not bad

4. Be careful with this, We are probably measuring SfD from the last model removed, so you may very well kill the models out of range of the WK

5. That....seems like a very sound idea. Since you would have to disembark before removing the Raider/Venom, the unit is on the board to use SfD

6. How are you getting 2 units to Soulburst? Any units embarked in transports are not "on the board" to use Soulburst, so only the unit whose transport was blown up would get it

7. Nice. that no-morale rule really opens up MSU even more

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I completely disagree with units getting Soulbursts from their transports dying, by the time you've placed the models on the table their transport is already dead, so removing it afterwards doesn't matter.

As for "last model removed", if a squad is completely wipped out from a single attack then it doesn't matter, they all removed at the same time. Definitely encourages us to go for bigger squads to overkill the target and try and trigger a Soulburst.

I just figured out something funny. In an Avatar on Avatar fight, Ynnead cannot hurt Khaine.

Ynnead's sword has Soulblaze. Khaine is immune to Soulblaze.

It a shame the new model isn't a dual kit to make either Avatar

I thought people were arguing about all this "destroyed" stuff because the rules didn't provide a clear answer for what "destroyed" meant and when units were "destroyed."

turns out, I was wrong. it's in a couple places, but it's in here.

Page 13: "When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been completely destroyed". Presumably then if, after any attack, there are >1 models in a unit, then the unit is not destroyed.

It goes on to explain that this includes units that run off the board due to morale. if you check the shooting section, you'll see that the sequence of shooting is to "completely resolve" each shooting attack individually, then the answer to "who can I draw range to when soulbursting using a shooting attack" is pretty clear. The answer is "Any of the models removed by the final attack that destroys the unit."

Then, the question of sequence of events for passengers embarked on a transport.

Page 82, effects of damage on passengers:

"Wrecked (other than flyers). The passengers must immediately disembark in the usual manner...any models that can't disembark are removed as casualties, this does not prevent the rest of the unit from disembarking. The unit must then take a pinning test. AFTER THIS, the vehicle becomes a wreck." (Emphasis mine)

Check if there are any other members of the vehicle's unit -> if no, the previously embarked unit is eligible to soulburst.

However, if you look at "Explodes"....

Page 81, explodes rules: "The vehicle is destroyed"

Page 82: "The unit suffers a number of hits...Surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle USED TO BE and in unit coherency"

So, the answer to the "transport question" is: If the vehicle is wrecked, the passengers get out before the transport is destroyed, and may soulburst. If the vehicle explodes, the passengers are placed after the model is removed from play, and cannot soulburst off of the vehicle's removal.

I thought of a very interesting tactic. Take three unites of jetbikes, 2 windriders and 1 reaver. Deepstrike/turboboost the windriders 9" away from the opponent, then turboboost the reavers between the opponent and the windriders. If the opponent kills the reavers they get shot up by the scatter lasers on the windriders, plus wont be able to charge. If the opponent kills one unit of windrider, the other windriders shoot and then the reaver jetbikes charge in. This severely limits the opponents mobility and will probably result in the killing of one of the units. Basically the reavers act as protection for the windriders and also a damage multiplier should the reavers get shot at.

I'm seeing a lot of suicide unit strategies. That is always going to be a bad plan. You should never be spending points on things you intend to die.

Strength from Death is a fantastic ability, but even it is not valuable enough to throw points away.

Play like you're expecting to use the rule, don't intentionally acquire it.

Your goal should be to use SfD mostly by killing the enemy units.

Thoughts on the triumvirate formation?

I am currently writing a list, and the formation takes up a ton of points. (625 to be specific). And although the bonuses are awesome, and I really want to field all three characters during my first game with Ynari, I really just think three characters is too much.

Any ideas on how to maximize the formation?

Additionally, any ideas on how to maximize Yvarine? She is probably the most mediocre of the triumvirate (IMO). She's an awesome 'battle psyker' but her price point of two farseers is just a lot.

 Galef wrote:
I just figured out something funny. In an Avatar on Avatar fight, Ynnead cannot hurt Khaine.

Ynnead's sword has Soulblaze. Khaine is immune to Soulblaze.

It a shame the new model isn't a dual kit to make either Avatar

Not quite. Soulblaze is a special rule that sets a unit on fire. He's immune to that rule. It doesn't mean the sword is made out of Soulblaze...

 nintura wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I just figured out something funny. In an Avatar on Avatar fight, Ynnead cannot hurt Khaine.

Ynnead's sword has Soulblaze. Khaine is immune to Soulblaze.

It a shame the new model isn't a dual kit to make either Avatar

Not quite. Soulblaze is a special rule that sets a unit on fire. He's immune to that rule. It doesn't mean the sword is made out of Soulblaze...

Thats what I thought, then I checked his rules and it says any attack with the Melta or Soulblaze special rule can't hurt him, so as written the Yncarn can't hurt the Avatar of Khaine.

Oh wow.... I'll go eat my hat now

Yep, the Avatar of Khaine has a great time fighting Tzeentch Daemons, since most of their stuff has Soul Blaze.

I think I can get that Soulbound formation to work, that extra Soulburst range may just be the thing to pull them into charge range. Though maintaining that Furious Charge rule would be a lot of work. Dire Avengers can get plenty of mileage, Incubi too (if they survive). Wyches.... should be fine if we get them in fast. I don't like sacrifices, either. However, if the enemy is foolish enough to target Wyches or transports first, I wont feel too bad about it. Best case scenario is I get them just outside of 12" out from the their front line, pop a unit and move up/charge.

If they haven't deployed aggressively, it's better to stay in the transports and hunt clusters.

That Bladehost formation... that one feels like it is going to lose units. Everything in it is squishy. On the otherhand, it makes it easy for the entire Formation to Soulburst and advance. Still each unit (other than Troupes) is only a little threatening in close combat. It would probably be a better idea to take Black Guardians for shooting than to take Storm Guardians.

 Imateria wrote:
I completely disagree with units getting Soulbursts from their transports dying, by the time you've placed the models on the table their transport is already dead, so removing it afterwards doesn't matter.

As for "last model removed", if a squad is completely wipped out from a single attack then it doesn't matter, they all removed at the same time. Definitely encourages us to go for bigger squads to overkill the target and try and trigger a Soulburst.

Agreed on both accounts. If I soot 40 scatter laser shots at your unit you roll all the saves from the one wound pool meaning the unit will basically die simultaneously, the rules tell you how to distribute the wounds (closest first) but they don't tell you the timing. The transport thing is painfully obvious at this point. Riders in transports are effectively in pseudo reserve, they aren't treated as being on the table while embarked, since you place them after resolving the vehicles destruction they were never there for the purposes of triggering a SfD in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
I thought people were arguing about all this "destroyed" stuff because the rules didn't provide a clear answer for what "destroyed" meant and when units were "destroyed."

turns out, I was wrong. it's in a couple places, but it's in here.

Page 13: "When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been completely destroyed". Presumably then if, after any attack, there are >1 models in a unit, then the unit is not destroyed.

It goes on to explain that this includes units that run off the board due to morale. if you check the shooting section, you'll see that the sequence of shooting is to "completely resolve" each shooting attack individually, then the answer to "who can I draw range to when soulbursting using a shooting attack" is pretty clear. The answer is "Any of the models removed by the final attack that destroys the unit."

Then, the question of sequence of events for passengers embarked on a transport.

Page 82, effects of damage on passengers:

"Wrecked (other than flyers). The passengers must immediately disembark in the usual manner...any models that can't disembark are removed as casualties, this does not prevent the rest of the unit from disembarking. The unit must then take a pinning test. AFTER THIS, the vehicle becomes a wreck." (Emphasis mine)

Check if there are any other members of the vehicle's unit -> if no, the previously embarked unit is eligible to soulburst.

However, if you look at "Explodes"....

Page 81, explodes rules: "The vehicle is destroyed"

Page 82: "The unit suffers a number of hits...Surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle USED TO BE and in unit coherency"

So, the answer to the "transport question" is: If the vehicle is wrecked, the passengers get out before the transport is destroyed, and may soulburst. If the vehicle explodes, the passengers are placed after the model is removed from play, and cannot soulburst off of the vehicle's removal.

All that is meant by that line is the rule is defining what you do with the model. A wreck is a type of battlefield debris ie terrain. As soon as the vehicle lost it's last HP is was destroyed, this is what triggers SfD, not what becomes of the corpse.