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I think Red is correct. I never liked vehicles anyways. But the idea of a shadowseer in a scatbike blob squad is pretty nice. Only downside is the low mobility of the shadowseer. Could be problematic on turns 3+, but I suppose if you have 3 turns of 2 large completely untouched scatter laser squads, that's probably a bigger issue for your opponent than it is for your moderately lower mobility. And if you keep him cheap, that's only 60 points for hit and run and guaranteed veil. Though, the I think another 25 for an extra WC (and a shot at invis, etc) is very worth it. Dang it I need another shadowseer
luke1705 wrote: I think Red is correct. I never liked vehicles anyways. But the idea of a shadowseer in a scatbike blob squad is pretty nice. Only downside is the low mobility of the shadowseer. Could be problematic on turns 3+, but I suppose if you have 3 turns of 2 large completely untouched scatter laser squads, that's probably a bigger issue for your opponent than it is for your moderately lower mobility. And if you keep him cheap, that's only 60 points for hit and run and guaranteed veil. Though, the I think another 25 for an extra WC (and a shot at invis, etc) is very worth it. Dang it I need another shadowseer
I just picked up book today. On the new artfacts the book states you can take Ynnari artfacts rather than from CE, DA and H codex's. The last sentence says you can take items from any/all of these lists in the same detachment.
Does that mean I can take Harliquin or Dark Eldar artifacts on my Farseer if I select him as part of a reborn warhost detachment?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/11 21:18:54
Kaughnor wrote: I just picked up book today. On the new artfacts the book states you can take Ynnari artfacts rather than from CE, DA and H codex's. The last sentence says you can take items from any/all of these lists in the same detachment.
Does that mean I can take Harliquin or Dark Eldar artifacts on my Farseer if I select him as part of a reborn warhost detachment?
I'd be inclined to say no as those units would explicitly state which artefact lists they can use in their own codex, which is supplemented by the the Ynnari list. That said, I can see why if they were fighting as a unified faction you could make the argument in favour of that idea.
2017/02/12 01:45:49
Subject: Re:Gathering storm II Ynari Aeldari Tactica
I have been thinking a lot about d-scythe wraiths with a webway portal. But wouldn't a raider be the better option? An archon with a wwp is at least 95 pts and offers no scatter which is good, but when placing your wraiths down not all of them will be able to shoot. With templates you can not shoot through friendly models so the wraiths in the center or back of your deep strike cluster will not be able to shoot. With a raider you are only paying 55 points and you can scatter, but 1/3 of the time you will not. Then the 2/3s that you do scatter you can disembark 6" from where you scatter before shooting. If I am not mistaken you can also pivot the raider (because it is a long model) before disembarking to add about 3", meaning as long as you dont scatter more than 9" you should be fine. The raider also has the advantage of being able to move 12" to your next target and the flames coming from the same point on the hull helps too.
2017/02/12 02:04:20
Subject: Re:Gathering storm II Ynari Aeldari Tactica
lambsandlions wrote: I have been thinking a lot about d-scythe wraiths with a webway portal. But wouldn't a raider be the better option? An archon with a wwp is at least 95 pts and offers no scatter which is good, but when placing your wraiths down not all of them will be able to shoot. With templates you can not shoot through friendly models so the wraiths in the center or back of your deep strike cluster will not be able to shoot. With a raider you are only paying 55 points and you can scatter, but 1/3 of the time you will not. Then the 2/3s that you do scatter you can disembark 6" from where you scatter before shooting. If I am not mistaken you can also pivot the raider (because it is a long model) before disembarking to add about 3", meaning as long as you dont scatter more than 9" you should be fine. The raider also has the advantage of being able to move 12" to your next target and the flames coming from the same point on the hull helps too.
About the Raider thing, when Deep striking you must place the raider in the table and roll for scatter, no pivot allowed after the dice is roll in order to avoid misshap. You can only pivot him on the shooting phase if moving flat out or in next turn.
Fragile wrote: Why would the Raider scatter? The WWP prevents it.
We are talking about using a raider instead of a WWP. The archon with a WWP is expensive and doesn't have the best weapon options. Plus raiders add a lot of mobility.
Kaughnor wrote: I just picked up book today. On the new artfacts the book states you can take Ynnari artfacts rather than from CE, DA and H codex's. The last sentence says you can take items from any/all of these lists in the same detachment.
Does that mean I can take Harliquin or Dark Eldar artifacts on my Farseer if I select him as part of a reborn warhost detachment?
It also specifically states that units can only take options stated on their dataslate entry, so Farseers have no option for taking Artefacts of Cruelty or Relics of the Black Library.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lambsandlions wrote: I have been thinking a lot about d-scythe wraiths with a webway portal. But wouldn't a raider be the better option? An archon with a wwp is at least 95 pts and offers no scatter which is good, but when placing your wraiths down not all of them will be able to shoot. With templates you can not shoot through friendly models so the wraiths in the center or back of your deep strike cluster will not be able to shoot. With a raider you are only paying 55 points and you can scatter, but 1/3 of the time you will not. Then the 2/3s that you do scatter you can disembark 6" from where you scatter before shooting. If I am not mistaken you can also pivot the raider (because it is a long model) before disembarking to add about 3", meaning as long as you dont scatter more than 9" you should be fine. The raider also has the advantage of being able to move 12" to your next target and the flames coming from the same point on the hull helps too.
I thought you couldn't disembark after deep striking a Raider? Also, if you move 12" then the D-Scythes inside wont be able to fire as you can't snap shoot a template.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/12 12:25:05
Man, inwould want to be the guy wielding the heavy flamer when he sees that target.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
Red Corsair wrote: If I soot 40 scatter laser shots at your unit you roll all the saves from the one wound pool meaning the unit will basically die simultaneously, the rules tell you how to distribute the wounds (closest first) but they don't tell you the timing. The transport thing is painfully obvious at this point. Riders in transports are effectively in pseudo reserve, they aren't treated as being on the table while embarked, since you place them after resolving the vehicles destruction they were never there for the purposes of triggering a SfD in the first place.
I disagree. After the vehicle is removed, any unit within range of its location is a viable target for activating SfD. Since the unit inside will have been placed by that point, they are legal targets. SfD doesn't activate (including choosing targets) until after the casualty has resolved. And the casualty isn't resolved until after any passengers have been placed.
NG77 wrote: What happens if you kill a unit with a few ICs with one round of shooting. Do you count as having destroyed one unit or multiple?
Multiple, everytime you remove an IC model from table it counts as a unit slain for victory points as example. So if you kill in a single round a 3-4 IC models unit it will count as a 3-4 units slain at the end.
NG77 wrote: What happens if you kill a unit with a few ICs with one round of shooting. Do you count as having destroyed one unit or multiple?
Multiple, everytime you remove an IC model from table it counts as a unit slain for victory points as example. So if you kill in a single round a 3-4 IC models unit it will count as a 3-4 units slain at the end.
That would be an exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself.
Independent Characters:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rule purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
That gives us a default blanket answer to the question "Does an IC count as part of the unit?" That answer is "No."
For a rule to work differently, you'd need an exception within that rule. I don't recall such an exception in SfD.
Victory Points do provide that exception, and so are treated as a separate unit for Victory Point purposes.
NG77 wrote: What happens if you kill a unit with a few ICs with one round of shooting. Do you count as having destroyed one unit or multiple?
Multiple, everytime you remove an IC model from table it counts as a unit slain for victory points as example. So if you kill in a single round a 3-4 IC models unit it will count as a 3-4 units slain at the end.
That would be an exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself.
Independent Characters:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rule purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
That gives us a default blanket answer to the question "Does an IC count as part of the unit?" That answer is "No."
For a rule to work differently, you'd need an exception within that rule. I don't recall such an exception in SfD.
Victory Points do provide that exception, and so are treated as a separate unit for Victory Point purposes.
SfD has to work differently I think.
Assume we have an Archon with a unit of Wyches. The Archon and only the Archon is killed. Does SfD activate? The Archon is no longer part of the Wych unit and thus doesn't count as part of it. He's a dead IC, so SfD should pop.
As a more extreme example, take the same composition but assume all the Wyches were killed and the Archon lives. Are we somehow saying the IC alone keeps the Wych unit from being considered 'destroyed'? Even the IC rule doesn't support that since the Wyches are no longer there for him to count as part of it.
Just one of my Ideas:
1 single Warlock taking sanctic spells...
+(A)
2 units of 10 Scatbikes
or
+(B)
1 Closecombat Knight and 9 Dark Eldar bikes+Autarch
get First Turn, Blow the Warlock in the Psychic Phase with ~6 Dice up ("Sanctic" perils on any doubles) and get 2 shooting Phases with those Bikes or 24" move+charge with a CC-Knight and a big unit of "Impact Hit Bikes"
NG77 wrote: What happens if you kill a unit with a few ICs with one round of shooting. Do you count as having destroyed one unit or multiple?
Multiple, everytime you remove an IC model from table it counts as a unit slain for victory points as example. So if you kill in a single round a 3-4 IC models unit it will count as a 3-4 units slain at the end.
That would be an exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself.
Independent Characters:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rule purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
That gives us a default blanket answer to the question "Does an IC count as part of the unit?" That answer is "No."
For a rule to work differently, you'd need an exception within that rule. I don't recall such an exception in SfD.
Victory Points do provide that exception, and so are treated as a separate unit for Victory Point purposes.
SfD has to work differently I think.
Assume we have an Archon with a unit of Wyches. The Archon and only the Archon is killed. Does SfD activate? The Archon is no longer part of the Wych unit and thus doesn't count as part of it. He's a dead IC, so SfD should pop.
As a more extreme example, take the same composition but assume all the Wyches were killed and the Archon lives. Are we somehow saying the IC alone keeps the Wych unit from being considered 'destroyed'? Even the IC rule doesn't support that since the Wyches are no longer there for him to count as part of it.
Its possible I'm reading it wrong, in that being an Independent Character joined to a unit wouldn't negate the quality of being a unit as well - that is, an IC can be both a unit and be considered a part of another unit. This does seem at least somewhat plausible.
If so, then my point is incorrect. If not, there remains another issue:
The other issue is one of timing. SfD triggers whenever "a unit is completely destroyed." When an Archon is killed while attached to a unit of wyches and the IC is considered ONLY a part of the unit for the purposes of SfD while it is attached, the Archon would not be a separate unit at the time the SfD trigger occurs, but only AFTER the model is killed (and is thus no longer attached to the squad). I believe the same would apply to when the Wych squad is killed and the Archon remains - the Archon is considered part of the Wych unit at the time of the Wych unit's destruction, and so the potential trigger occurs before the units are separated.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/12 21:46:57
NG77 wrote: What happens if you kill a unit with a few ICs with one round of shooting. Do you count as having destroyed one unit or multiple?
Multiple, everytime you remove an IC model from table it counts as a unit slain for victory points as example. So if you kill in a single round a 3-4 IC models unit it will count as a 3-4 units slain at the end.
That would be an exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself.
Independent Characters:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rule purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
That gives us a default blanket answer to the question "Does an IC count as part of the unit?" That answer is "No."
For a rule to work differently, you'd need an exception within that rule. I don't recall such an exception in SfD.
Victory Points do provide that exception, and so are treated as a separate unit for Victory Point purposes.
That rule it's about how a normal unit plus attached IC should behave nothing else.
Read purge the Alien Victory conditions, they do not make an exception of the rule it REMINDS you that IC and Transport are individual Vehicles (as they own their individual Datasheet on your army list) SfD it's triggered everytime one of those Individual Datasheet units are Destroyed iand a unit of 3-4 Ic are still 3-4 different units but Grouped together.
NG77 wrote: What happens if you kill a unit with a few ICs with one round of shooting. Do you count as having destroyed one unit or multiple?
Multiple, everytime you remove an IC model from table it counts as a unit slain for victory points as example. So if you kill in a single round a 3-4 IC models unit it will count as a 3-4 units slain at the end.
That would be an exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself.
Independent Characters:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rule purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
That gives us a default blanket answer to the question "Does an IC count as part of the unit?" That answer is "No."
For a rule to work differently, you'd need an exception within that rule. I don't recall such an exception in SfD.
Victory Points do provide that exception, and so are treated as a separate unit for Victory Point purposes.
That rule it's about how a normal unit plus attached IC should behave nothing else.
Read purge the Alien Victory conditions, they do not make an exception of the rule it REMINDS you that IC and Transport are individual Vehicles (as they own their individual Datasheet on your army list) SfD it's triggered everytime one of those Individual Datasheet units are Destroyed iand a unit of 3-4 Ic are still 3-4 different units but Grouped together.
I addressed this tangentially in my first response, but I might as well clarify for this aspect.
The qualify of being considered part of a unit relies on the state of being attached to that unit. After an IC's destruction, it is no longer a attached to the unit. The triggering point for Purge the Alien's Primary Objection is "[a]t the end of the game," and so the IC would be treated as a separate unit per my quoted IC rules, while the triggering condition for SfD is differently timed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/12 21:44:39
Badger wrote: Just one of my Ideas:
1 single Warlock taking sanctic spells...
+(A)
2 units of 10 Scatbikes
or
+(B)
1 Closecombat Knight and 9 Dark Eldar bikes+Autarch
get First Turn, Blow the Warlock in the Psychic Phase with ~6 Dice up ("Sanctic" perils on any doubles) and get 2 shooting Phases with those Bikes or 24" move+charge with a CC-Knight and a big unit of "Impact Hit Bikes"
There's no guarantee you'll kill the warlock with a single peril.
His/her death would trigger SftD, allowing your scatt bike to shoot once, but I don't think they would be allowed to shoot again in the shooting phase.
Units that move 12" could however use that to move an additional 12", putting them in range for a T1 charge.
Red Corsair wrote: If I soot 40 scatter laser shots at your unit you roll all the saves from the one wound pool meaning the unit will basically die simultaneously, the rules tell you how to distribute the wounds (closest first) but they don't tell you the timing. The transport thing is painfully obvious at this point. Riders in transports are effectively in pseudo reserve, they aren't treated as being on the table while embarked, since you place them after resolving the vehicles destruction they were never there for the purposes of triggering a SfD in the first place.
I disagree. After the vehicle is removed, any unit within range of its location is a viable target for activating SfD. Since the unit inside will have been placed by that point, they are legal targets. SfD doesn't activate (including choosing targets) until after the casualty has resolved. And the casualty isn't resolved until after any passengers have been placed.
Your not citing rules anymore. SfD says nothing about casualties. It simply says measure range when a unit is destroyed. The tank is destroyed well before you start measuring from it's hull to place models. It's very linear, in order to trigger the unit to emergency disembark the transport must have been destroyed first, since passengers are not considered on the table top until they are deployed it isn't possible for them to have been there during the vehicles destruction.
Yeah I think the distinction here is "destroyed" vs "becomes a wreck". The vehicle is:
1) destroyed
2) passengers disembark
3) the vehicle becomes a non-functional wreck
In classic GW rules-writing, I can see how it's murky, but at the very least it's murky enough that I wouldn't suppose to benefit from SfD until such a time that it's FAQ'd to work on wrecked vehicles. Not only does it feel like exploiting a loophole at best, but the loophole isn't clear enough for me to feel like I'm not playing for an unfair advantage in that situation.
Worth an FAQ? Absolutely. But until such a time as it is FAQ'd, I personally won't be playing it because it's unclear and unintended IMO.
Red Corsair wrote: If I soot 40 scatter laser shots at your unit you roll all the saves from the one wound pool meaning the unit will basically die simultaneously, the rules tell you how to distribute the wounds (closest first) but they don't tell you the timing. The transport thing is painfully obvious at this point. Riders in transports are effectively in pseudo reserve, they aren't treated as being on the table while embarked, since you place them after resolving the vehicles destruction they were never there for the purposes of triggering a SfD in the first place.
I disagree. After the vehicle is removed, any unit within range of its location is a viable target for activating SfD. Since the unit inside will have been placed by that point, they are legal targets. SfD doesn't activate (including choosing targets) until after the casualty has resolved. And the casualty isn't resolved until after any passengers have been placed.
Your not citing rules anymore. SfD says nothing about casualties. It simply says measure range when a unit is destroyed. The tank is destroyed well before you start measuring from it's hull to place models. It's very linear, in order to trigger the unit to emergency disembark the transport must have been destroyed first, since passengers are not considered on the table top until they are deployed it isn't possible for them to have been there during the vehicles destruction.
I am citing rules, I'm just paraphrasing for clarity.
Yes, you are correct: the passengers must be removed from the vehicle when it is destroyed, but that is part of the process of the vehicle being 'destroyed.' It's destruction isn't complete until after the passengers have exited, taken any required Pinning tests, and the model has been removed (if necessary). Only once the vehicle's destruction is complete can we check for SfD.
If we begin to resolve SfD halfway through the resolution of a casualty (the vehicle being destroyed) then we run into some situations that don't make sense. (Specifically, units like Superheavy Vehicles or C'Tan being killed by a unit, and that unit then moving out of the blast radius before they die.)
Red Corsair wrote: If I soot 40 scatter laser shots at your unit you roll all the saves from the one wound pool meaning the unit will basically die simultaneously, the rules tell you how to distribute the wounds (closest first) but they don't tell you the timing. The transport thing is painfully obvious at this point. Riders in transports are effectively in pseudo reserve, they aren't treated as being on the table while embarked, since you place them after resolving the vehicles destruction they were never there for the purposes of triggering a SfD in the first place.
I disagree. After the vehicle is removed, any unit within range of its location is a viable target for activating SfD. Since the unit inside will have been placed by that point, they are legal targets. SfD doesn't activate (including choosing targets) until after the casualty has resolved. And the casualty isn't resolved until after any passengers have been placed.
Your not citing rules anymore. SfD says nothing about casualties. It simply says measure range when a unit is destroyed. The tank is destroyed well before you start measuring from it's hull to place models. It's very linear, in order to trigger the unit to emergency disembark the transport must have been destroyed first, since passengers are not considered on the table top until they are deployed it isn't possible for them to have been there during the vehicles destruction.
I am citing rules, I'm just paraphrasing for clarity.
Yes, you are correct: the passengers must be removed from the vehicle when it is destroyed, but that is part of the process of the vehicle being 'destroyed.' It's destruction isn't complete until after the passengers have exited, taken any required Pinning tests, and the model has been removed (if necessary). Only once the vehicle's destruction is complete can we check for SfD.
If we begin to resolve SfD halfway through the resolution of a casualty (the vehicle being destroyed) then we run into some situations that don't make sense. (Specifically, units like Superheavy Vehicles or C'Tan being killed by a unit, and that unit then moving out of the blast radius before they die.)
This is the part where your not actually proving your claim with the rules. Nowhere in the rules does it tell us the vehicle isn't destroyed until the model is removed, that's the part your making up. What we are told is that once a vehicle loses it's last HP it is destroyed and THEN the occupants follow the rules for emergency disembarkation.
The second part isn't an actual problem. You resolve the wreck entirely, never did I state that you would for some reason interrupt that process, I can tell your an avid magic player BTW, so am I. But in this case it's the strange fact that GW has ruled that occupants are not considered to be on the table while in transports, it's why area of effect rules don't project from the hull. THAT is why SfD doesn't affect the unit inside. They are not there when the vehicle is destroyed, they show up after resolution.
Not to interrupt the good ole rules lawyering that is 40k, but I haven't played since 5th and recently just got ~1k points on clowns and a skathach Wraithknight. Was planning to add a farseers and 2 squads of scatbikes for 1850. Do you see that type of list working better in Ynarri taking a few of the new characters, or sticking with craftworld + allies?
chriachrias wrote: Not to interrupt the good ole rules lawyering that is 40k, but I haven't played since 5th and recently just got ~1k points on clowns and a skathach Wraithknight. Was planning to add a farseers and 2 squads of scatbikes for 1850. Do you see that type of list working better in Ynarri taking a few of the new characters, or sticking with craftworld + allies?
With those troops just go Ynnari, you pretty much would only lost the Battle focus of Farseers, and gain the whole advantage of SfD, also worth to notice you can field a Ynnari detachment without any of the new characters if wish as long you use the Reborn Warhost.
anybody have any ideas on what i can combine with a few wraithcannon wraithguard and archon+webway portal to make it more survivable in the face of strong interceptor fire. Regular opponent is tau, and things like the shadowseer casting its conceal type power would not help me on the initial drop.
