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The problem is he can't charge the turn he teleports. So, ideally, you want to teleport off the last thing your opponent kills. Tiny one man squads are bound to get the Yncarne to show up too early and shot right away. Though.... if that one man squad could get 2 full squads of solid shooting off it may work out. That said, with that sort of looming threat, the opponent would be less likely to shoot the sacrificial unit. You probably would be better off with a fast squad that you can charge with that should either die or finish off the enemy squad in their turn. Reavers can possibly do that.

I've used min squads of reavers with caltrops, they are enough of a threat that your opponent will kill them, but with ease. Just don't opt to jink

Yeah, I really think Reavers are the best choice. They are cheap enough to be sacrificed, fast enough to get wherever you want in 1 turn, tough enough to potentially require several units to shoot at them, and versatile enough to actually do work if they don't get killed.

I could see a list with several units paired up. Turbo boost close to your target, when unit A dies, Yncarne comes in and unit B gets to Soulburst.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.

I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.

In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).

On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.

Good point about locking enemy units down so they can't shoot. I'm afraid opponents will learn to pick their targets carefully enough to prevent that in the future though.

the_scotsman wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.

I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.

In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).

On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.

If you sweep-advance a unit in your turn, then you might want to assault another unit, to be protected from incoming fire and prevent an enemy unit from shooting. It would be at the end of Initiative step 1, so no one would get to attack during that turn.
I believe Harlequins could make use of that.

fresus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.

I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.

In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).

On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.

If you sweep-advance a unit in your turn, then you might want to assault another unit, to be protected from incoming fire and prevent an enemy unit from shooting. It would be at the end of Initiative step 1, so no one would get to attack during that turn.
I believe Harlequins could make use of that.

Hm. Good point. That is a very solid usage, especially for harlequins who can just hit and run out if they have to to get the bonus assault attacks on your next turn.

fresus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.

I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.

In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).

On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.

If you sweep-advance a unit in your turn, then you might want to assault another unit, to be protected from incoming fire and prevent an enemy unit from shooting. It would be at the end of Initiative step 1, so no one would get to attack during that turn.
I believe Harlequins could make use of that.

Why would it be I:1?

fresus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.

I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.

In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).

On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.

If you sweep-advance a unit in your turn, then you might want to assault another unit, to be protected from incoming fire and prevent an enemy unit from shooting. It would be at the end of Initiative step 1, so no one would get to attack during that turn.
I believe Harlequins could make use of that.

One of the difficulties of playing a CC-dedicated army (like Harlequins) is trying to not completely destroy your target on the first round of combat, because you are then left standing in the open where your high WS/I won't stop the incoming fire.

With SfD, you now want to wreck your target on the first turn, because you can soulburst to another combat, or get far into cover.

I'm thinking about running The Serpent's Brood formation as Ynnari - three troupes all with dedicated starweavers, if they Hit and Run or consolidate within 2" of their transport, they can hope back on. Put embraces on the players for D3 S6 HoW at I10, utterly crush the target, then either soulburst into the next target, or soulburst + consolidate to get back into your vehicle...

strepp wrote:

fresus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.

I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.

In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).

On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.

If you sweep-advance a unit in your turn, then you might want to assault another unit, to be protected from incoming fire and prevent an enemy unit from shooting. It would be at the end of Initiative step 1, so no one would get to attack during that turn.
I believe Harlequins could make use of that.

One of the difficulties of playing a CC-dedicated army (like Harlequins) is trying to not completely destroy your target on the first round of combat, because you are then left standing in the open where your high WS/I won't stop the incoming fire.

With SfD, you now want to wreck your target on the first turn, because you can soulburst to another combat, or get far into cover.

I'm thinking about running The Serpent's Brood formation as Ynnari - three troupes all with dedicated starweavers, if they Hit and Run or consolidate within 2" of their transport, they can hope back on. Put embraces on the players for D3 S6 HoW at I10, utterly crush the target, then either soulburst into the next target, or soulburst + consolidate to get back into your vehicle...

Just be careful with that, because if Initiative stays the same for that combat step, you'll charge in to that second unit, they'll get overwatch and then they'll get to swing since they likely have lower initiative than you.

 nintura wrote:

fresus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.

I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.

In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).

On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.

If you sweep-advance a unit in your turn, then you might want to assault another unit, to be protected from incoming fire and prevent an enemy unit from shooting. It would be at the end of Initiative step 1, so no one would get to attack during that turn.
I believe Harlequins could make use of that.

Why would it be I:1?

You're right. "Determine assault results" is done after the fight sub-phase, and keeping the current initiative step when using SftD only applies when it's triggered during the fight sub-phase.
So you can sweep advance a unit, then charge a second one and attack again. That's pretty neat.

fresus wrote:

 nintura wrote:

fresus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.

I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.

In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).

On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.

If you sweep-advance a unit in your turn, then you might want to assault another unit, to be protected from incoming fire and prevent an enemy unit from shooting. It would be at the end of Initiative step 1, so no one would get to attack during that turn.
I believe Harlequins could make use of that.

Why would it be I:1?

You're right. "Determine assault results" is done after the fight sub-phase, and keeping the current initiative step when using SftD only applies when it's triggered during the fight sub-phase.
So you can sweep advance a unit, then charge a second one and attack again. That's pretty neat.

I dont think you get to attack again. You fight again, but you already made the attacks for that initiative step.

So the way I understand it is:

Lets say I have a harlequin unit.

They charge a single space marine, and the troupe master kills the SM at I7, they then use the soulburst to charge another squad of space marines, the harlequins still get to attack at I6, but since the troupe master already attacked at I7, its now the I6 step?

Yeah I think it's actually kind of bad for us. You charge the second unit, but only the lower initiatives will get to attack which is usually the opponent and not us. Also makes the Reavers harder for me to justify because it will waste their Hammer of Wrath Hits which is what they count on.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Yeah I think it's actually kind of bad for us. You charge the second unit, but only the lower initiatives will get to attack which is usually the opponent and not us. Also makes the Reavers harder for me to justify because it will waste their Hammer of Wrath Hits which is what they count on.

Pretty much. Which means we want a shooty army with one or two big melee hitters. But I also have a feeling it wasn't intended to be this way and that it would start the fight sub part over again so they can swing again, which is why it's limited to once per turn per unit.

That's why I'm thinking I'll have warp spiders and swooping hawks as my forward units near the opponent for SfD. I'd love to use the reavers, but even when they're successful they have to take multiple overwatches and survive the melee attacks from potentially two different units.

So I want to make a case for black guardian warwalkers over black guardian jetbikes. The warwalkers get to run before shooting, which means if you deepstrike them in 9" and run with within 7" allowing you to soulburst and shoot again. It makes for a more powerful alphastrike. The warwalkers have similar point costs to scatterlaser ratios, Jetbikes are 30pt per scatterlaser and warwalkers are 32.5pts per. Warwalkers are less of an investment at 65 pts for 1 verses 90 pts for 3 jetbikes (two scatterlasers do 3.5 hp of damage to AV 10 rear armor).

So the warwalkers are better purely for alpha strike potential, as they should be able to shoot twice the turn they drop where jetbikes will never be able to shoot twice. They are cheaper meaning you can get your 4 units in for 260pts rather than 360pts. They also make better sacrificial units if you want your Yncarne to be in the opponents face on your turn 2.

Jetbikes are better is all other respects as they will do more the longer they live and their mobility is unmatched. However, if you don't think they will live long after deep strike, then the walkers are worth a look.

Warwalkers don't get to run before shooting because you lose Battle Focus.

I do like your arguments for the war walker. I've also been planning on fielding some Vypers because two shuriken cannons with precision placement will do nice for grabbing objectives and sniping models while hiding out of LOS while only costing 55 points.

If you take the formation the war walkers do get to keep Battle Focus but then they won't get to benefit from SfD.

the_scotsman wrote:
Warwalkers don't get to run before shooting because you lose Battle Focus.

Nope, they are their own detachment from CWE. They keep their battle focus as long as they are in that Ulthwe Strike Force. Outside of that, they lose battle focus

the_scotsman wrote:
Warwalkers don't get to run before shooting because you lose Battle Focus.

Not for the Ulthwe Strike Force

If you take them as an Ulthwe Strike Force outside of an Ynnari detachement they have Battle Focus but no SfD.
If you take them in an Ynnari detachement they lose Battle Focus but gain SfD.

It clearly states that all units taken in an Ynnari detachement lose Battle Focus.

I think 4 people telling him was more than enough lol. Do people not read?

I think everyone commented at the same time lol.

When I posted my comment nobody else had mentioned it (at least on my screen).

Sorry The_Scotsman

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I think everyone commented at the same time lol.

When I posted my comment nobody else had mentioned it (at least on my screen).

Sorry The_Scotsman

o.O There's like 30+ minutes inbetween lol. You mean you guys aren't sitting there with your finger on the f5?

So I think I am rethinking my earlier comment about Khymera. Since they are so cheap, maybe units of 3-5 could be a good addition to a Ynnari Faction.
They could provide assault protection for some units by just hanging out within 7" and being a speed-bump that gives you shooting units the ability to shoot immediately at the units that just assaulted the Khymera. (looking at GSC MSU here)

Or as mentioned, they can rush forward to get Yncarne where he needs to be.

is it bad that im thinking of some pretty broken combos? I think the ynnari can make their extra action if their enemy is completely destroyed. allies of convenience counts as enemies so you could go for some hyper msu builds and constantly fire and move twice if we use the large ynnari detachment. Im fairly new to eldar as a whole so sorry for my lack of terms and knowledge. I always wanted to get into eldar.

 -v10mega wrote:
is it bad that im thinking of some pretty broken combos? I think the ynnari can make their extra action if their enemy is completely destroyed. allies of convenience counts as enemies so you could go for some hyper msu builds and constantly fire and move twice if we use the large ynnari detachment. Im fairly new to eldar as a whole so sorry for my lack of terms and knowledge. I always wanted to get into eldar.

It's not bad if you have a competitive community! Just let us know what you come up with.

Their extra action can come from the death of any unit, friend or foe. So, draw your units from mostly Ynnari and more of your MSU will be able to take advantage of the rule.

Welcome to Eldar, an army with fluidity and force. And as good a time to jump in as any!

 Galef wrote:
So I think I am rethinking my earlier comment about Khymera. Since they are so cheap, maybe units of 3-5 could be a good addition to a Ynnari Faction.
They could provide assault protection for some units by just hanging out within 7" and being a speed-bump that gives you shooting units the ability to shoot immediately at the units that just assaulted the Khymera. (looking at GSC MSU here)

Or as mentioned, they can rush forward to get Yncarne where he needs to be.

I really like the Khymera squads (looking at 2-3 solo squads for my list) for much the same reason that I like a lot of the hyper cheap and efficient tyranid units. (Spore mines, lictors, etc). Literally all of the time, your opponent is going to spend a lot more points killing it than it's worth.

Your point for not liking them was that they're too easy to kill. You're not wrong, but that works to our advantage. At worst, that's a 10 point squad that gave my opponent a kill point, but allowed me to fire my squad of scatter lasers in his turn. Would you trade a kill point to let your scatter lasers fire in the opponent's turn? I know I'm down.

And if you don't want the khymera killed early on, keep them in reserves. There are worse things than a 10 point objective squatter who can hide out of LOS rather easily.

Shame that GW noted in the BRB that allies (desperate, come the apocalypse, etc) can't be targeted in psychic/shooting/assault :( Was looking at some cool slingshot detachments.

On that note, since it's the "targeting" that is the issue, are there creative ways around that that could reliably give us cheap and effective soul bursts (especially since we get 2 every time a unit dies if our detachments have enough units)

Examples I can think of that don't "target" things and thus could kill "friendly" units:

Mawloc's Terror From the Deep
Any beam powers (Necron Pylons....that Tzeentch beam....I can't think of other ones)
Generally speaking, anything that counters invisibility in the psychic/shooting phase would do the trick (except for novas I think)

What else am I missing? If we can find something that can do this trick reliably, there are a lot of cheap detachments that could provide us with 2-3 guaranteed soul bursts on turn 1, essentially meaning the whole army would shoot twice, or stabby WK gets a 24" move + charge, etc.

I'll be taking a different approach and try utlizing Ynnari to make my footslogging Dark Eldar more competitive. Now that I can easily attach Shadowseers to Wych units, I plan on advancing them behind beast packs and using soulburst for extra movement, rather than any shooting.

I'll also be hoping I can pick my Farseer powers, that seems too good.

I haven't determined whether I want Ycarne or a Wraithknight, I'll have to mess around with each of them. The idea of Ycarne showing up in the middle of my Beast/Wych blob and giving everything Fearless and Feel no Pain seems very useful.