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So, am I correct in saying that the Yncarne cannot generate Sanctic powers even though they're listed as one of his choices because he's a Daemon? Sanctuary would be great to have.

Codex > BRB. If their intention was to give him Sanctic, then he should have them. Or does the book just say it gives him Daemonology by default?

 nintura wrote:
Codex > BRB. If their intention was to give him Sanctic, then he should have them. Or does the book just say it gives him Daemonology by default?

Yes, normally Codex > BRB, and the fracture of Biel-Tan book, as well as the dataslate in the assembly instructions, say the Yncarne can generate powers from Daemonology(Sanctic). It's just that usually, there would be a note saying "The Yncarne can generate from Sanctic, even though it's usually not possible for daemons".
I think the rule writers overlooked that as a daemon, he would normally be prevented from using Sanctic, and therefore forgot to add a note.

In any case, I'm not sure Sanctic powers are that good for him anyway. He can't join units, so Gate of Infinity and Hammerhand are pretty much useless. With perils on any double, I don't think it's worth it compared to Revenant.

fresus wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Codex > BRB. If their intention was to give him Sanctic, then he should have them. Or does the book just say it gives him Daemonology by default?

Yes, normally Codex > BRB, and the fracture of Biel-Tan book, as well as the dataslate in the assembly instructions, say the Yncarne can generate powers from Daemonology(Sanctic). It's just that usually, there would be a note saying "The Yncarne can generate from Sanctic, even though it's usually not possible for daemons".
I think the rule writers overlooked that as a daemon, he would normally be prevented from using Sanctic, and therefore forgot to add a note.

In any case, I'm not sure Sanctic powers are that good for him anyway. He can't join units, so Gate of Infinity and Hammerhand are pretty much useless. With perils on any double, I don't think it's worth it compared to Revenant.

On the other hand Sanctuary would be very useful, giving him a 4++ and being an MC he auto passes Dangerous Terrain checks so he cant hurt himself that way, and Cleansing Flame is always a good power to have, especially if you pop up right in the middle of your opponents army. I think it's disappointing that his other choice is Revenant, becuase on paper it looks like a rather underwhelming discipline.

What is the fastest unit in the ynnari line that isnt in a vehicle or jetbike? i ask this because if you spam those units alongside some allies of convenience then you could have some killer combos. Im trying to make a list where you have the Gladius strike force or lions blade or castellans and mix them with ynnari.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im thinking warp spiders? propblem is that they dont deliver that much of a punch and neither does scatbikes

 -v10mega wrote:
What is the fastest unit in the ynnari line that isnt in a vehicle or jetbike? i ask this because if you spam those units alongside some allies of convenience then you could have some killer combos. Im trying to make a list where you have the Gladius strike force or lions blade or castellans and mix them with ynnari.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im thinking warp spiders? propblem is that they dont deliver that much of a punch and neither does scatbikes

I think you're seriously underestimating the firepower of Warp Spiders and Scatbikes. But the Wraithknight, Beastpacks, Hellions and the Solitair all move 12" per turn and Swooping Hawks move 18" per turn.

 Imateria wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:
What is the fastest unit in the ynnari line that isnt in a vehicle or jetbike? i ask this because if you spam those units alongside some allies of convenience then you could have some killer combos. Im trying to make a list where you have the Gladius strike force or lions blade or castellans and mix them with ynnari.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im thinking warp spiders? propblem is that they dont deliver that much of a punch and neither does scatbikes

I think you're seriously underestimating the firepower of Warp Spiders and Scatbikes. But the Wraithknight, Beastpacks, Hellions and the Solitair all move 12" per turn and Swooping Hawks move 18" per turn.

Pretty much this. 5 Spiders gets you 10 S:6 shots, let alone when you burst them.

IM not underestimating them (sorry if it came out that way) but i think they just die from what ive seen and to be fair i havent seen a lot. my idea is to have as many ynnari units as possible, they need to be cheap and shoot/assualt really well. i think im going with the swooping hawks. what else do you think could be added to that list?

BRB says Daemons cannot generate powers from Sanctic, however Yncarne's rules specifically say "Yncaren generates powers for the Santic Daemonology or Revenant disciplines"

That's pretty clear permission. Sadly, he isn't a GK and without their Purity of Soul rule, he will still perils on any double.
Add to the fact that the primaris is only effective against other Daemons and several of the powers are useless for a single model like him, you have to ask yourself: Is it worth the risk to try to get Cleansing Flame or Sanctuary?
I don't think it is. Revenant is better for him, even if it isn't a stellar discipline.

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From my two games I've played, I've exclusively taken off revenant, and from what I understand, it has a few awesome powers and a few useless ones.

The best ones are -

words of the phoenix, Ancestors grace, storm of whispers (this one also has the coolest name) and gaze of ynead, although unbind souls is also pretty useful, everything else is crap though.

the main issue I find with the disipline is that all the good powers are warpcharge 2-3, and the primaris is really not good.

Santic isn't really good for the yncarne, and it really benefits form psychic shooting.

I'm kind of liking the look of the Revenant discipline myself, but I'm also planning on running Farseers so I'll have the option to drop some of those spells down to WC 1. I agree that they do seem kind of pricey for other psykers to cast them.

 lambsandlions wrote:
So I want to make a case for black guardian warwalkers over black guardian jetbikes. The warwalkers get to run before shooting, which means if you deepstrike them in 9" and run with within 7" allowing you to soulburst and shoot again. It makes for a more powerful alphastrike. The warwalkers have similar point costs to scatterlaser ratios, Jetbikes are 30pt per scatterlaser and warwalkers are 32.5pts per. Warwalkers are less of an investment at 65 pts for 1 verses 90 pts for 3 jetbikes (two scatterlasers do 3.5 hp of damage to AV 10 rear armor).

So the warwalkers are better purely for alpha strike potential, as they should be able to shoot twice the turn they drop where jetbikes will never be able to shoot twice. They are cheaper meaning you can get your 4 units in for 260pts rather than 360pts. They also make better sacrificial units if you want your Yncarne to be in the opponents face on your turn 2.

Jetbikes are better is all other respects as they will do more the longer they live and their mobility is unmatched. However, if you don't think they will live long after deep strike, then the walkers are worth a look.

I'm not sure if I follow this one. I thought that vehicles couldn't soulburst.

war wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
So I want to make a case for black guardian warwalkers over black guardian jetbikes. The warwalkers get to run before shooting, which means if you deepstrike them in 9" and run with within 7" allowing you to soulburst and shoot again. It makes for a more powerful alphastrike. The warwalkers have similar point costs to scatterlaser ratios, Jetbikes are 30pt per scatterlaser and warwalkers are 32.5pts per. Warwalkers are less of an investment at 65 pts for 1 verses 90 pts for 3 jetbikes (two scatterlasers do 3.5 hp of damage to AV 10 rear armor).

So the warwalkers are better purely for alpha strike potential, as they should be able to shoot twice the turn they drop where jetbikes will never be able to shoot twice. They are cheaper meaning you can get your 4 units in for 260pts rather than 360pts. They also make better sacrificial units if you want your Yncarne to be in the opponents face on your turn 2.

Jetbikes are better is all other respects as they will do more the longer they live and their mobility is unmatched. However, if you don't think they will live long after deep strike, then the walkers are worth a look.

I'm not sure if I follow this one. I thought that vehicles couldn't soulburst.

They cant but they do give you some good heavy hitting power.

Ah, ok. I'm not convinced that they would be a better choice over bikes or even a vyper.

-Bikes can soulburst and mobility is way higher
-Vypers can be cheaper and mobility is higher

idk, i'll have to think about it though... My warwalkers have been collecting dust for a while now.

I thought someone said that Battlescribe had the new Ynnari stuff up?

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm kind of liking the look of the Revenant discipline myself, but I'm also planning on running Farseers so I'll have the option to drop some of those spells down to WC 1. I agree that they do seem kind of pricey for other psykers to cast them.

I feel like the revenant discipline is a waste on farseers, when they have the stone its better.. but runes of fate is so good.

I've gotten the pick your power warlord trait on my farseer, and took breathe of the phoneix, gate of infinity, and Gaze of Ynead, and I wish I hate taken some off runes, because breathe of the phoneix would be a lot better if you could shoot in the psychic and shooting phase, its nice for mobility though.

What do you guys think about two large units of reapers with shadow seers for viel of tears. Then some smaller units like warwalkers that can also do damage from range. If they kill the cheap warwalkers you can soulburst and shoot again. Might even be worth suicide warlocks. Three round of shooting in the first turn would be pretty devastating.

 lambsandlions wrote:
What do you guys think about two large units of reapers with shadow seers for viel of tears. Then some smaller units like warwalkers that can also do damage from range. If they kill the cheap warwalkers you can soulburst and shoot again. Might even be worth suicide warlocks. Three round of shooting in the first turn would be pretty devastating.

Reapers aren't bad but they're just outclassed by a lot of other units that shoot better and more efficiently. Their mobility does mesh with the shadowseer better than shadowseer + bikes, but bikes are just stupid efficient.

I think war walkers are going to make a big comeback, specifically in the Strike Force

Just throwing my 2p into the Black Guardian unit debate, I think you guys are slightly missing the single biggest upside to these formations with your debating about Bikes vs War Walker efficiency.

As far as the Reborn Warhost goes:
You can (and most likely will) take Scat Bikes in troops or as a Windrider Host already as they are cheaper, so taking them in the Elites option doesn't make sense.

However, by moving Black Guardian War Walkers and Vypers into Elites, you can still get them into an army without using up valuable FA slots (DE Transports for your Aspect Hosts) or HS slots, all without having to take the Guardian Battle or Storm host formations, or if you really want, take them in both.

As for the Ulthwe Strike Force:
Again the T1 reserve roll is nice, but Vypers and Warwalkers without the Guardian Formation Tax or using up FA and HS slots that could be better put to use by other units. Plus you can still throw in a Deepstriking unit of Black Guardians to Shuriken the crap outta something if you want as well.

The best of both worlds, in both cases.

Would spore mines count as non-vehicle units that die when they blow up? Could you take a handful of them as an ally just to drop them, have them blow up and trigger SfD?

My Aeldari opponent specifically asked me to play Dark Eldar and specifically asked me to play his Echoes of War mission.

He used the Triumvarate as the mission required.

He was to be tabled and so conceded turn three.

The Avatar of Ynead (whatevs) is the best of the three models in it. As an opponent I found that simply focusing in on the Avatar alone and nothing else basically stopped most of the shenanigans and then i just picked the most isolated targets i could to avoid any real damage happening to me in response. I multicharged in order to slow down my rate of killing which helped also. Shooting uunits are far more dangerous than assault ones because assault ones that get triggred might not even get to attack that round given the way the initiative count goes for Aeldari.

So overall my impression was that getting that Avatar dead was key number one and I just pounded it in melee until it died and then the Bomber came in and wiped his deathstar pretty handily and that was it. His return shots at my bomber were inconsequential of course.

As an opponent, looking back on the game, there were basically two things i didnt like about the mission. The deployment zone was MEANT I think to sucker enemies closer in, so you could beat them to a pulp with the Triumvarate and they are really scary at mele. the second thing about it was that the Dark Eldar get to go first. This ALSO struck me as an attempt to get the foolhardy to charg into the deathball of the Aeldari.

I think that turtling with all his units would have been smarter for him in that mission. The triuvarate is pretty much where its at and the victory condition was simple: kill the Triumvarate entirely or lose. So there was no need for him to spread out or worry about objectives. He chose to spread out a bit which allowed my beastpack to target his Farseer and anti-air Reapers without other units being close enough to do shenanigans. So there were a couple things he could have done differently but in tyhe end it was such a white wash that it hardly mattered.

What are people's thoughts about double shooting Wraithguard?

Take a unit of WG and a Archon with WWP. Drop them with 7" of 2 targets they want to shoot at. They kill unit A, then immediately Soulburst to shoot unit B.
My feeling is that this would be difficult with D-scythes since you can only really point all the flamers in 1 direction without losing more than 1 flamer. So you'd drop in, kill the unit you set up to kill, but can only get 1-2 flamers on the second unit.

So regular Wratihcannon WG might be best in this situation. But is it worth the points? Or rather would it get it's points worth?
Might be a really good addition to a Reserve list with an Autarch (who could add a haywire grenade to the WG for good measure) and an USF. Even better, you could have Yncarne come in off of a destroyed unit prior to that so that he can charge in your turn.

 Galef wrote:
What are people's thoughts about double shooting Wraithguard?

Take a unit of WG and a Archon with WWP. Drop them with 7" of 2 targets they want to shoot at. They kill unit A, then immediately Soulburst to shoot unit B.
My feeling is that this would be difficult with D-scythes since you can only really point all the flamers in 1 direction without losing more than 1 flamer. So you'd drop in, kill the unit you set up to kill, but can only get 1-2 flamers on the second unit.

So regular Wratihcannon WG might be best in this situation. But is it worth the points? Or rather would it get it's points worth?
Might be a really good addition to a Reserve list with an Autarch (who could add a haywire grenade to the WG for good measure) and an USF. Even better, you could have Yncarne come in off of a destroyed unit prior to that so that he can charge in your turn.

Personally if you are going to deathstar it - it's the way to go. 10 WC will destroy anything - bring a farseer along to guide and just kiss stuff goodbye. Or you could go for Eldrad and roll on divination - get ignores cover - full BS overwatch (thats pretty stupid with soulburst if you think about it) and the 4++ invo is great for them too. In fact - I just convinced myself.
Archon WWP, Eldrad, as many WG as you think is necessary - I'd say 10.

Question - is eldrad allowed to roll on the ynnari warlord table? even though he has his own warlord trait?

No, any character that has a set WL trait cannot roll on any table.

Hmm, I'm not sure 10 WG would be needed, nor would it be wise to put so many points in 1 unit. 2x 5WG would probably be much better, each with a WWP Archon.
I am digging the Farseer idea with them. It looks like multiple detachment will be needed since You'll need an Autarch too for Reserve control, so 3 HQs.

So do we now have all the elements needed for a successful null deploy list?
Autarch for +1/-1 Reserves
USF for units that can come in turn 1 to prevent being tabled.
Yncarne can come in any time a unit is destroyed, to further hold the board presence until turn 2
WWP Archon in WG units that can shoot again if they drop and kill their first target

Am I missing anything? Any other units that would really make a null deploy army great?

-

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:
What are people's thoughts about double shooting Wraithguard?

Take a unit of WG and a Archon with WWP. Drop them with 7" of 2 targets they want to shoot at. They kill unit A, then immediately Soulburst to shoot unit B.
My feeling is that this would be difficult with D-scythes since you can only really point all the flamers in 1 direction without losing more than 1 flamer. So you'd drop in, kill the unit you set up to kill, but can only get 1-2 flamers on the second unit.

So regular Wratihcannon WG might be best in this situation. But is it worth the points? Or rather would it get it's points worth?
Might be a really good addition to a Reserve list with an Autarch (who could add a haywire grenade to the WG for good measure) and an USF. Even better, you could have Yncarne come in off of a destroyed unit prior to that so that he can charge in your turn.

Personally if you are going to deathstar it - it's the way to go. 10 WC will destroy anything - bring a farseer along to guide and just kiss stuff goodbye. Or you could go for Eldrad and roll on divination - get ignores cover - full BS overwatch (thats pretty stupid with soulburst if you think about it) and the 4++ invo is great for them too. In fact - I just convinced myself.
Archon WWP, Eldrad, as many WG as you think is necessary - I'd say 10.

Question - is eldrad allowed to roll on the ynnari warlord table? even though he has his own warlord trait?

This is what I've been running the last week, and it's great fun -- 10 wraithguard with guns (as stated, flamers have overlap and range issues), with a WWP Archon and an Autarch for reserve reliability; a farseer (can't take Eldrad because he has a set trait, and I'm fishing hard to choose my psychic powers!). I then veer into sheer points wastage by adding three Phoenix Lords -- Baharroth for hit and run and a 4+ invuln tank; Jain Zar to nerf anything I charge by -5 WS and -5 I, as well as disarming whomever she challenges; and Maugan Ra to allow me to fire at two units per turn. This gives me a unit which will almost always soulburst, can fire at one unit while charging at another (thanks Maugan!), WANTS to be in hand to hand, and can freely get out of it to shoot again, soulburst again, and then charge (thanks Jain and Baharroth!). Yes, it's an 1100 point unit, but damn is it fun to play!

Might aswell add in a shadowseer so you can veil to prevent your opponent from focussing all its weapons the next turn.

On a budget(either points or slots), you can take only 1 Archon and use the WG unit which is most applicable to the current situation

I'm actually liking what this has done for not so strong units, I'm currently playing around with an idea of an all fire avenger aspect host in wave serpents with a farseer in one unit, yvrain in another and a shadowseer with mask of secrets in the next then taking a couple of FA venoms with 5 banshees in each one joined by an archon with armour of misery and the visarch in the other, plenty of psychers means you can roll for the power that allows a unit to soulburst allowing your avengers to shoot in the psychic phase then again in the shooting phase stacking the LD debuffs and also the banshees just need to win CC causing a -6 to LD with the exarch and relic debuffs there's a high chance the enemy is running. I'm not a high competitive player but I love the synergy working here and I wanted to involve the triumvirate.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:



I addressed this tangentially in my first response, but I might as well clarify for this aspect.

The qualify of being considered part of a unit relies on the state of being attached to that unit. After an IC's destruction, it is no longer a attached to the unit. The triggering point for Purge the Alien's Primary Objection is "[a]t the end of the game," and so the IC would be treated as a separate unit per my quoted IC rules, while the triggering condition for SfD is differently timed.

I realize i am coming a little late to this discussion but I think this exact issue already has a FAQ that tells us how GW would rule on this. The KDK FAQ says that an independent character generates an additional Blood Tithe if it is a unit in its own right - which most IC are. I think we should take it that any IC that is still a unit it its own right (i.e. not in some formation which removes IC status and ties them to a unit) will trigger SfD in the same way.

 Galef wrote:
What are people's thoughts about double shooting Wraithguard?

Take a unit of WG and a Archon with WWP. Drop them with 7" of 2 targets they want to shoot at. They kill unit A, then immediately Soulburst to shoot unit B.
My feeling is that this would be difficult with D-scythes since you can only really point all the flamers in 1 direction without losing more than 1 flamer. So you'd drop in, kill the unit you set up to kill, but can only get 1-2 flamers on the second unit.

So regular Wratihcannon WG might be best in this situation. But is it worth the points? Or rather would it get it's points worth?
Might be a really good addition to a Reserve list with an Autarch (who could add a haywire grenade to the WG for good measure) and an USF. Even better, you could have Yncarne come in off of a destroyed unit prior to that so that he can charge in your turn.

my only issue with wraith cannons is that only having 5 shots means you will rarely kill a whole unit. But it would be great for taking out monstrous creatures and transports. The nice thing about killing a transport is you can soulburst to kill some of the guys inside.

Dscythes are more likely to kill a whole unit but less likely to be able to shoot at anything afterwards.

 lambsandlions wrote:
my only issue with wraith cannons is that only having 5 shots means you will rarely kill a whole unit. But it would be great for taking out monstrous creatures and transports. The nice thing about killing a transport is you can soulburst to kill some of the guys inside.

But with no-scatter Deep Strike, you can easily place them 7" from a large target like that (MC or vehicle) and 12" from any other target. Kill the large target unit, then Soulburst the second.
This could be a nightmare for a multi-Knight list. Imagine only 5-6 WG dropping in an taking out 2 Knights.

I think the important thing for this tactic is to have "back-up" units available if you do not kill the primary target on the drop.

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