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I thought vehicles don't provide soul burst? Did I miss a change?

 Crazyterran wrote:
I thought vehicles don't provide soul burst? Did I miss a change?

No change happened. Its just that vehicles cannot soulburst themselves. A soulburst can be triggered off any unit's death.

 Galef wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
For scatbike spam, I don't feel that running a bunch of khymeras would be good since scatbikes would be kept in the back field anyways.

The thing is, Drop pod spam, GSC ambush, Ravenwing biker scouting forward, and TWC deathstars are a thing in my meta. So staying far away from the enemy is not always easy. By having a few Khymera deployed out just ahead of the Scatterbikes, if prevents such units from getting super close, and provides options to counter the units that do. Like using a Khymera to soulburst charge some Skyhammer Assault marine before they could charge my bikes.

And the best thing about them is letting the opponent know that if they kill the Khymera, 2 of my units get to immediately shoot you. That seems to stop them from giving first blood.

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True but if you face FMCs or long range barrages or IKs, free soul burst shots really don't matter much.

I'd just hate giving opponents free first strike/blood and easy KPs. You could easily lose a NOVA mission this way or fall behind in maelstrom in ITC.

Then don't deploy the Khymera turn 1. They are still 10pt models that move 12" and will waste enemy shooting.
At the very least they are great objective grabbers for Malestrom.

 Galef wrote:
Then don't deploy the Khymera turn 1. They are still 10pt models that move 12" and will waste enemy shooting.
At the very least they are great objective grabbers for Malestrom.

Exactly this. Definitely worthwhile as long as you deploy properly. Vulkan is right that the effect of the Khymera is more minimal when you have scatbikes that have little business getting that close (although the 2d6 assault move helps a ton) but who isn't taking an aspect host of warp spiders at the competitive level?

 luke1705 wrote:
but who isn't taking an aspect host of warp spiders at the competitive level?

*Raises hand*

The tables at my shop are too inconsistently terrained. Some have plenty, others are rather bare...on purpose. Spiders are $h!+ if they can't Flicker out of LoS. And since they have to be close, they are getting shot at and killed very consistently. Come to think of it, only 1 Eldar player in our area ever uses Spiders and he is one of the least competitive of the group (at least successfully competitive anyway)
Point for point, I'd much rather take 4 Shuricannon bikes than 5 Spiders. The T4 and extra range makes all the difference. And since we all know Scatterbikes are even better, why would I take Spiders?

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 Galef wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
but who isn't taking an aspect host of warp spiders at the competitive level?

*Raises hand*

The tables at my shop are too inconsistently terrained. Some have plenty, others are rather bare...on purpose. Spiders are $h!+ if they can't Flicker out of LoS. And since they have to be close, they are getting shot at and killed very consistently. Come to think of it, only 1 Eldar player in our area ever uses Spiders and he is one of the least competitive of the group (at least successfully competitive anyway)
Point for point, I'd much rather take 4 Shuricannon bikes than 5 Spiders. The T4 and extra range makes all the difference. And since we all know Scatterbikes are even better, why would I take Spiders?

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Because mathmaticly warp spider in an aspect host vs scat bike both do .041 damage per point agaimst MEQ and the spinner end up doung more damage to everything tougher, and only slightly less to everything with worse armor???

Also the spider can deep strike, have 5 wounds instead of 3, can run from combat or shooting with out having to jink, also have an assault move. If they get charged and some how live they can also leave combat.

I think.... thats why youd take them over scats. If you wanted to.

 luke1705 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Then don't deploy the Khymera turn 1. They are still 10pt models that move 12" and will waste enemy shooting.
At the very least they are great objective grabbers for Malestrom.

Exactly this. Definitely worthwhile as long as you deploy properly. Vulkan is right that the effect of the Khymera is more minimal when you have scatbikes that have little business getting that close (although the 2d6 assault move helps a ton) but who isn't taking an aspect host of warp spiders at the competitive level?

im off the spider bandwagon aswell. I found when i used them previously, i was constantly using battlefocus to get better shots/maximize range whatever, and i think the loss of this even gaining strength from death is a net loss for them. ive essentially replaced them with a wwp archon and some dscythes in my list. I mean im not sure how you deepstrike with them, but i generally try to initially position them 6-7 inches from the enemy id like to kill. If i hit im still in range but gives me some flexability on the scatter if things went bad thanks to battle focus. Now theres a legit chance i can scatter right out of range. Ya i could position the initial scatter closer, but now risk scattering on the enemy, and i seem to roll 1 on the mishap chart often.

mmimzie wrote:

Because mathmaticly warp spider in an aspect host vs scat bike both do .041 damage per point agaimst MEQ and the spinner end up doung more damage to everything tougher, and only slightly less to everything with worse armor???

Also the spider can deep strike, have 5 wounds instead of 3, can run from combat or shooting with out having to jink, also have an assault move. If they get charged and some how live they can also leave combat.

I think.... thats why youd take them over scats. If you wanted to.

You do not get 5 wounds over 3. Point for point, 5 Spiders with an Exarch are 3 pts cheaper than 4 Scatterbikes. And damage calculation between the 2 units is irrelevant when 1 unit can consistently be in range and shoot, whereas the other can be consistently wiped out after it fires once. But again, I am speaking from personally experience with the inconsistent terrain in my local area.

For the roughly the cost of 1 Aspect Host of Spiders (315), I can get 4 units of 3 Scatbikes (324)
That is 1 extra unit, 4 Troops to fill the minimum for 2 Reborn Hosts, and arguably will live much longer. Another thing to point out here is that in a Reborn Host, units do not take Moral for 25% casualties when near other units in the Host. So the "basically fearless" that the Spiders get is much less of an advantage for them.

I am not saying Spiders are bad. I am just explaining why I do not think they are must-haves for a competitive list. More bikes are always better, especially now that there are Elite bike options that could Deep Striek without scatter, for just a few point more.

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Aside from tailoring towards a local gaming group.

Generally speaking, purposely sacrificing something for soul burst is very situational and again can backfire on you depending on the mission. Reserving the dogs still doesn't make them any more safer after turn 1.

I think most people would agree in most situations the dogs don't do much for the scatbikes. And losing battle focus is not worth taking spiders either. In my opinion I'd put those 30-40 pts of dogs somewhere else, like maybe more scatbikes or lasers on the WK.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Aside from tailoring towards a local gaming group.

Generally speaking, purposely sacrificing something for soul burst is very situational and again can backfire on you depending on the mission. Reserving the dogs still doesn't make them any more safer after turn 1.

I think most people would agree in most situations the dogs don't do much for the scatbikes. And losing battle focus is not worth taking spiders either. In my opinion I'd put those 30-40 pts of dogs somewhere else, like maybe more scatbikes or lasers on the WK.

I disagree actually. Though a smart opponent can choose to ignore a solo Khymera that is next to a unit or two of scatbikes, it may be that he can't outright kill one of those units of bikes (perhaps due to LOS issues or just general firepower). If the opponent has to decide between a kill point on a maelstrom mission (or just generally achieving a card and not, he may want to shoot at the Khymera). That is situational, but it situationally benefits you. Otherwise, he won't shoot at your Khymera, which means that you can position it however you need to in order to get a soulburst turn 2 on warp spiders or any other forward-positioned unit you may have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
but who isn't taking an aspect host of warp spiders at the competitive level?

*Raises hand*

The tables at my shop are too inconsistently terrained. Some have plenty, others are rather bare...on purpose. Spiders are $h!+ if they can't Flicker out of LoS. And since they have to be close, they are getting shot at and killed very consistently. Come to think of it, only 1 Eldar player in our area ever uses Spiders and he is one of the least competitive of the group (at least successfully competitive anyway)
Point for point, I'd much rather take 4 Shuricannon bikes than 5 Spiders. The T4 and extra range makes all the difference. And since we all know Scatterbikes are even better, why would I take Spiders?

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Why would a table be bare on purpose? Totally defeats much of the tactical play associated with 40k. If positioning doesn't matter, it's just all about who has the best guns (hint: it's Tau)

 luke1705 wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Aside from tailoring towards a local gaming group.

Generally speaking, purposely sacrificing something for soul burst is very situational and again can backfire on you depending on the mission. Reserving the dogs still doesn't make them any more safer after turn 1.

I think most people would agree in most situations the dogs don't do much for the scatbikes. And losing battle focus is not worth taking spiders either. In my opinion I'd put those 30-40 pts of dogs somewhere else, like maybe more scatbikes or lasers on the WK.

I disagree actually. Though a smart opponent can choose to ignore a solo Khymera that is next to a unit or two of scatbikes, it may be that he can't outright kill one of those units of bikes (perhaps due to LOS issues or just general firepower). If the opponent has to decide between a kill point on a maelstrom mission (or just generally achieving a card and not, he may want to shoot at the Khymera). That is situational, but it situationally benefits you. Otherwise, he won't shoot at your Khymera, which means that you can position it however you need to in order to get a soulburst turn 2 on warp spiders or any other forward-positioned unit you may have.

In situations where a KP is not needed, and a player have LoS issues and can't kill a whole scatbike unit, they still going to shoot at the scatbikes and to force a leadership check over a single khymera that poses no immediate long range threat.

If the KP do matter, then yes killing the dog is priority they can't wipe a scatbike unit due to LoS. When the dog dies, the soul burst scatbikes can fire back but will also have LoS issues. Again very situational, but I still don't see much benefits the khymeras can be to scatbikes.

Even against Skyhammer, I don't think it is very reliable to depend on a single khymera to charge lock a assault squad in order to prevent first turn charge after a devastator squad kills off another scatbike unit. Most assault squads have 2 flamers, wall of death has high chance of killing that khymera, when it dies you still have to end up shooting the assault squad anyways with another soul burst.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

In situations where a KP is not needed, and a player have LoS issues and can't kill a whole scatbike unit, they still going to shoot at the scatbikes and to force a leadership check over a single khymera that poses no immediate long range threat.

You might wanna reread the Reborn Host bonuses. If a unit is within 7" of another, they do NOT take moral checks for losing 25% of the unit.
So that's ANOTHER reason to have that 10pt unit escorting those Scatterbikes.

As you said, they'll just ignore them anyway. That can be exploited

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just wanted to confirm something, if i was to take an allied autarch along with my reborn warhost because i needed the third HQ slot, he can use his abilities to manipulate the warhosts reserves still though right?

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
just wanted to confirm something, if i was to take an allied autarch along with my reborn warhost because i needed the third HQ slot, he can use his abilities to manipulate the warhosts reserves still though right?

Yes, but why take an ally? Just make 2 detachments, unless you are min/max ing the FoC and only taking 2 troops, there is no reason to not take 2 detachments if you have 14+ units with 2 HQ's and if you dont have 2 HQ's you can get an HQ for 10pts from DE.

2 Detachments give you +1 more Soulburst action if they are 7+ units.

I think the issue is that the HQ slot is too crowded, not too light. It's the reason why I need 2 reborn war hosts. 1-2 farseers is mandatory to great, and the autarchs are excellent as well. I went the Archon route so I needed a 4th HQ even. Now I'm happy that the Harlequins are all Elites haha

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Then don't deploy the Khymera turn 1. They are still 10pt models that move 12" and will waste enemy shooting.
At the very least they are great objective grabbers for Malestrom.

Exactly this. Definitely worthwhile as long as you deploy properly. Vulkan is right that the effect of the Khymera is more minimal when you have scatbikes that have little business getting that close (although the 2d6 assault move helps a ton) but who isn't taking an aspect host of warp spiders at the competitive level?

im off the spider bandwagon aswell. I found when i used them previously, i was constantly using battlefocus to get better shots/maximize range whatever, and i think the loss of this even gaining strength from death is a net loss for them. ive essentially replaced them with a wwp archon and some dscythes in my list. I mean im not sure how you deepstrike with them, but i generally try to initially position them 6-7 inches from the enemy id like to kill. If i hit im still in range but gives me some flexability on the scatter if things went bad thanks to battle focus. Now theres a legit chance i can scatter right out of range. Ya i could position the initial scatter closer, but now risk scattering on the enemy, and i seem to roll 1 on the mishap chart often.

A WWP means no scatter when deepstriking... am I missing something?

I played a game today and it went quite well.

I am really having a hard time list building I think, money (as per usual) is super short for me, and I built my Deldar and 'Quins to be used as standalone armies, so mech deldar and the such.

I only picked up the tiny bit of craftworlders that I do have after the book dropped (3 scatbikes + farseer).

So I don't have many units that are useful outside of transports, and ynari really really really suffer when they can't benefit from SfD.

My list was double reborn warhost + RSR, the RSR was there for 7 Individual Kymeara. They were definitely the MVPs. Giving either free soulbursts, scoring objectives, and tying up units in assault for a turn or two.

My opponent was brining Aeldari jetbike spam, so probably the list that I don't want to fight against the most. It was something like 18 reavers and like 12 scatpacks + seers and some skyweavers and the such.

I made a huge mistake turn two though, I fortuned the Yncarne and completely overestimated his survivability and underestimated my opponent. He drew basically an entire turns worth of shooting, but my opponent didn't kill anything near it or any of my tiny units so he could teleport out of range. That was kinda the turning point of the battle, but it was a bloody battle, thats for sure.

I wonder how Dark eldar/Harliquins would do. Obviously sc atter bike spam is good. It's good no matter what you do. though i'd kind of contend they'd be as good or better (situation depending) in a cad than reborn,.

But DE/Harliquins seems like the would enjoy SfD.

DE would be cool if you went very deep strike based. If your running Yncarne you could quite easily almost null deploy with just one units and use Yncarne to stay on the table as needed. If you didn't run Ycarne, than ulthwe can help out with a cheap strike forces of whatever. Deep striking Venoms and raids would work decently, as you could just hope out when you land and then your vehicles could go find objectives will your other forces enjoy rapid fir range and SfD range.

Harliquins supported by shadow seers and farseers could potentially go car-less banking on thier formations(maybe) and phycic revent powers to get up the table quickly. Though the problem here is where do these heros go??? You could put the seers in with the harliquins, but thats a really expensive easy to remove unit. After thier first turn this doesn't matter was they can be under the protection of tiers and being soulbursted up the map.

 luke1705 wrote:
I think the issue is that the HQ slot is too crowded, not too light. It's the reason why I need 2 reborn war hosts. 1-2 farseers is mandatory to great, and the autarchs are excellent as well. I went the Archon route so I needed a 4th HQ even. Now I'm happy that the Harlequins are all Elites haha

To play the rules with the most potential you want multi detachments, so 4 HQ slots is fine. If you are playing MSU you can even go 3 Detachments for 6 HQs' there is 0 problems with HQ slots.

For each detachment that is 7+ you get +1 soulburst action, 2 Detachments give 3. This is good b.c you can get more use out of a dead unit easier and faster.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
I think the issue is that the HQ slot is too crowded, not too light. It's the reason why I need 2 reborn war hosts. 1-2 farseers is mandatory to great, and the autarchs are excellent as well. I went the Archon route so I needed a 4th HQ even. Now I'm happy that the Harlequins are all Elites haha

To play the rules with the most potential you want multi detachments, so 4 HQ slots is fine. If you are playing MSU you can even go 3 Detachments for 6 HQs' there is 0 problems with HQ slots.

For each detachment that is 7+ you get +1 soulburst action, 2 Detachments give 3. This is good b.c you can get more use out of a dead unit easier and faster.

As per page 121 command benefits apply to units in the detachment. Arguments can realistically be made that using your double soul burst either means both units must be from the same detachment or only the second one needs to be from that detachment, more confusingly getting a 3rd soulburst would have to take the second interpretation and would need 2 untis from one detachment and one unit from a 2nd detachment, which would be very confusing to track.

I am actually thinking about triple RBW.

I am really having a hard time with transports, if harlies could take raiders and venoms as DTs, then there'd be no issue, but since I gotta buy those in the FA section, I have no space for scourge, Kymearae, or reavers.

I like a lot of the HQ choices (aesthetic wise and ruleswise, so grabbing three isn't an issue.)

Yeah three HQ's is very easy you ahve warlocks that cost nothing, but i'd say screw that transports. You'd still have to wait a turn to get out. With Harlies you can pretty reliably get up the board in two turns, having to deep strikes doesn't really make you get into combat any faster.

Your best bet would probably be to standard deployed in stock raiders (cheaper than starweaves, and as long as get a cover save are just as tough). If any survive move forward, jump out, and with your various seers and or warlocks roll on revent to try and get word of the pheonix so you can get a second move.

Also as long as your vehicle does explode you can soul burst off the wrecking of your former trans port meaning you essentially get a free 12" move up the board, and if your in range can charge from the spot.

Alternatively if you really want to go the deep strike route you could deep strike in everything and try to make them to wreck your raiders and then from there jump out and charge on thier turn.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
just wanted to confirm something, if i was to take an allied autarch along with my reborn warhost because i needed the third HQ slot, he can use his abilities to manipulate the warhosts reserves still though right?

Yes, but why take an ally? Just make 2 detachments, unless you are min/max ing the FoC and only taking 2 troops, there is no reason to not take 2 detachments if you have 14+ units with 2 HQ's and if you dont have 2 HQ's you can get an HQ for 10pts from DE.

2 Detachments give you +1 more Soulburst action if they are 7+ units.

ETC rules which i play dont allow double detachments like 2 reborn warhosts. Also, my list includes a ulthwe strikeforce so that alone plus my warhost already count as 3 detachments. My allied detachment makes 4 and im at my limit

About the fact that units are not locked in combat against vehicles: wraithlords and wraithknights can reliably kill light vehicles with HoW, assuming they only have 1HP left. They could therefore charge and kill a vehicle, then soulburst (to shoot or to assault with all their attacks remaining).

Raiders are actually tougher than starweavers, cheaper too. And don't underestimate massed dissi cannons!

I might be dropping the harlies all together, and use the points to make a large unit of Kymearae or Slythh (probably the former cause they are cheaper $$) and throw the visarch and Yvraine in there. And with the excess maybe pick up a flyer?

Harlies are super situational for me, which kinda sucks as I love the models, but they really fish for those sixes when attacking, and if they fail they die to a tactical marine punching them.

Word of the phoenix is definitely the best revenant power, by far, and I will usually go for it on a psycher or two (fortune is very vital to getting on my seers tho)

To everyone who is running 3+ HQs, what are they, how are you equipping then and what do you use them for?

I am especially interested in how you equip autarchs and archons. Autarchs are great for reserve manipulation but I am not sure what unites and to put them in for best results. Archons seem to be just wwp carriers and have poor ranged weapons and unless close combat weapons(useless when with wraiths who don't want to assault.)

For me, Archons and Autarchs are only delivery systems. One delivers Deep Strikes, the other delivers reserves. Outside of that, I just want them to be cheap and possibly able to steal an objective late game. So, only mobility upgrades. Though, if you were running some fast, assaulty unit a case could be made for a banshee mask.

Then again, I generally go hq light, to spread the points elsewhere in my list.

Archon, Autarch and either Conclave or Farseer

Archon for WWP
Autarch for Reserve rolls and a Banshee Mask for a melee unit if you take that
Psykers for powers

No other upgrades for your archons, autarchs and farseers? What units do you put them in? If you are going to use the autarch for a melee unit shouldn't you give him a close combat weapon?


I am thinking about running my autarch on a jetbike in a large unit for khymera with either a laser lance or shard of anaris. I think khymera have a lot of potential along side yncarne for FNP making a cheap, durable, unit that covers a large area.