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Nvs wrote:
Hopefully some of those issues will be resolved in 8th edition. If GW doesn't do something about the buckets of dice and proliferation of AP2 then the entire update will be a failure imo.

I don't recall if it was discussed on this forum or another so it wasn't my idea and I'm not trying to steal anyone's thunder. But what impact would simply making invulnerable saves being rolled after normal saves do? Especially as a global rule system wide and not just for terminators?

For example, you take a bucket of dice and fail 7 2+ armor saves. You then would roll those 7 against your invulnerable save.

A better answer would be making some fnp style save that would be able to be taken after saves. TBH rerolls are the best way to circumvent the problems of a 1-6 dice scale if done well, IMO.

Terminators are supposed to be elite operators who can take on both masses and other elite troops because of their experience, training, and skill. They do have things on their profiles that are better than centurions' and those are their +1 A and +1 Ld. Those things don't count for anything atm. People say don't upgrade Vanguard vets, they die like normal MEqs, don't take chosen, they die like normal MEqs.

If your model has a greater number of base attacks than the models shooting it and is in cover/half obscures, the shooting model should be at -1 BS. We are talking about elite units, veteran officers, wily loota boys, they all need a mechanism to outwit and out survive the lesser units they face off against in a fire fight.

Beyond that, yes there need to be lots of improvements.

The first heavy weapon in a basic shooty squad should be free, to make up for the sergeant's power weapon that is required by the kit and just good practice. The second upgrade weapon should also be just five points, but it should have to be a different weapon. You could say that mixing heavy weapons is not good, but one of them is free and the other one is 20 points cheaper than currently. It's also got the upside of looking good and making sense. A military fire team has one guy with a machine gun, one guy with a missile tube, and one guy with a grenade launcher. Terminators are professional, they would carry more than one type of gun. You could even have all three guns in one squad, one for free and the others for five points. They'd be able to use a weapon for any situation, and they'd still be cheaper than a current single weapon squad.

Then they have to be five models max, that's just what the background says and it doesn't make any sense to have giant units of elite tunnel fighters. If they are variable they should be 3 - 5 in size and unlock the extra heavies a size 5.

Any solution that has Salvo has to be at least salvo 3/3. Salvo 2/3 is crazy and doesn't make any sense for non relentless models. I think power wise salvo 3/3 and shred is minimum - assuming that you can get your opponents to rely heavily on t3 or t4 infantry models so that your crappy s4 shooting even means anything.

As far as defense, the 5++ should become a ward save that you can take if you fail armor or other iron halo/storm shield save. It doesn't help against ap2, it's true, but that's why you have that attacks-based shooting modifier. If the shooting player has both grav and more attacks than you do, then he might be getting what he paid for.

Attacks Characteristic in Shooting

When a model is shooting at a model that is at least 25% obscured and is the same size or smaller, compare the numbers of attacks on the models' profiles. If the shooting model has the same or fewer attacks on it profile, resolve the shooting at bs - 1.

When a model is shooting at a model that is at is the same size, compare the number of attacks on the models' profiles. If the shooting model has more attacks, resolve the shooting at +1 bs.

Models without attacks are unaffected.

Size

Size is indicated by unit type - e.g. models that are bulky are larger than infantry that are not. Vehicles are larger than extra bulky models; tanks, flyers, and monstrous creatures are larger than vehicles.

When shooting at a model that is smaller and is at least 25% obscured, shooting is resolved at bs - 1.


Tactical Dreadnought Armor

Models with this wargead have a 2+ armor save as well as the relentless and deep strike special rules. These models may make a 5+ invulnerable save after failing any other type of save. Models with this wargear may not sweeping advance.

 Marmatag wrote:
I wouldn't use grav as the barometer for balance. It fits a very specific purpose, it is an anti-terminator and anti-mc weapon. Scissors is strong against paper. If grav suddenly stopped existing, plasma would still ruin terminators days. 4 plasma shots from a 5 man tac squad will hurt you.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing terminators go from a 2+/5++ to a 3+/5++ with 2 wounds and 5 toughness.

Because it's not just grav that makes them struggle.

1) They have low initiative in melee relative to other melee units. For example, A death company throwing out 40 attacks on charge at I5 will handle your 2+ save termies no problem.

2) Their mobility is terrible, and they can only take dedicated transports that themselves are overcosted and very vulnerable.

3) Their shooting options are meh. They have no way to take advantage of their relentless platform, really. Allow them to ALL have a power fist and a heavy flamer as stock options and we'll talk. Or, something better than a storm bolter. At least a hurricane bolter.

Basically they can't out-shoot shooty units, they can't out-melee squads designed for it, and they can't tank any sustained fire because there's so much AP2, or mass fire, that 1 wound and weak toughness means they're dropping too fast.

I'm a little opposite from you. I like 2+/4++ or maybe 2+ re-rolling and a 5++ with 2 wounds and T5. I think i'm ok with that even considering that CSM Termies with MoN would be T6. Even with all the new stuff CSM have gotten i think they may still need a little love from GW just because they've been pretty bad for a while.

40 DC would still be a problem and giving them grav would help their shooting out put some and, at least for DA, could help with meq assault units. Just one gravcannon could make them a little more appealing. Deepstrike with a gravcannon that is twin-linked that turn, with relentless, and re-rolling to wound because of gravamps. With the profile I just mentioned, maybe a small points reduction, I could make that work for something. For example, deepstrike next to that DC squad and open up. With 5 grav shots alone, re-rolling to hit/wound, good chance you'll do some damage with that grav leaving them with just a 5+ FnP. Not to mention DA have grimresolve so they fire overwatch at BS 2 and at full BS in a lion's blade. You could really weaken a 10 man DC squad with that before they even had a chance to charge and actually have the wounds and/or saves to hold up long enough for the PF to do some damage.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Yeah, but in the fluff aren't they also supposed to excel in close quarters fighting against really dangerous enemies that can tear up regular marines? Clearing space hulks, going through the breach into the enemy keep, that sort of thing. So they're supposed to be really durable but also more of an aggressive close-in option. Not something you'd send on a regular patrol, but something that's ideal for a Zone Mortalis situation.

Of course, which is precisely what Terminators still are. However, as armies and games get bigger, as the number of units that can challenge Terminators increases and broadens in variety, their application on the battlefield lessens. I'd much rather have three Land Speeders with all the trimmings than five vanilla Terminators, and could realistically use them to challenge pretty similar targets.

So increasingly Terminators should become specialists, reserved for Zone Mortalis, extraordinary scenarios and games under 1000pts. I don't have a problem with this; it more properly reflects the Armour's original purpose, promotes that style of gameplay (which has been sorely lacking for a long time), and allows more modern innovations such as the Centurion Warsuit to handle the heavy lifting, so to speak.

giving them grav would help their shooting out put some and, at least for DA, could help with meq assault units. Just one gravcannon could make them a little more appealing. Deepstrike with a gravcannon that is twin-linked that turn, with relentless, and re-rolling to wound because of gravamps. With the profile I just mentioned, maybe a small points reduction, I could make that work for something.

.
You still have people asking why their units aren't good. The models, artwork, and background all have terminators carrying assault cannons or flamers, so people go out and build squads with assault cannons then come make threads like this one saying that their assault cannon terminators need some buffs. You also still have assault terminators being bad and chaos terminators being bad. Maybe if loyalist terminators had the option to replace one of their models with a grab cannon terminator that would be useful, but for assault terminators, chaos terminators, and people who have any other weapon in their unit, that is like giving terminator squads the option to replace all of their members with scatter bikes, or for twenty points one of the members may be replaced by playing Flames of War.

pelicaniforce wrote:

giving them grav would help their shooting out put some and, at least for DA, could help with meq assault units. Just one gravcannon could make them a little more appealing. Deepstrike with a gravcannon that is twin-linked that turn, with relentless, and re-rolling to wound because of gravamps. With the profile I just mentioned, maybe a small points reduction, I could make that work for something.

.
You still have people asking why their units aren't good. The models, artwork, and background all have terminators carrying assault cannons or flamers, so people go out and build squads with assault cannons then come make threads like this one saying that their assault cannon terminators need some buffs. You also still have assault terminators being bad and chaos terminators being bad. Maybe if loyalist terminators had the option to replace one of their models with a grab cannon terminator that would be useful, but for assault terminators, chaos terminators, and people who have any other weapon in their unit, that is like giving terminator squads the option to replace all of their members with scatter bikes, or for twenty points one of the members may be replaced by playing Flames of War.

I don't see how giving one terminator the option to take a grav cannon is the same as being able to replace all its members with scat bikes? It also doesn't make since considering they're pretty much the only space marines that can't take them (barring vehicles). Besides, assault terminators with 2+ re-roll/3++ (with shield), T5, and 2 wounds would still be a lot better then they are now. CSM would still benefit from the the same stats and MoN would make them T6 so how would it not make terminators better across the board?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And since when did art work and the way people modeled their stuff based on that ever stop GW from adding or taking something away from a model?

 davou wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Same thing for Meganobz. They already have a 2 wound profile. Just leave them as is.

you take a look at how much meganobz cost compared to termies lately?

They're 5 points more. And you guys want to make Terminators tougher while ignoring them. Once again you guys think in a vacuum when YOU NEED TO LOOK IN THE VACUUM, OTHER CODICES, AND OVERALL RIPPLE EFFECT.

It really shouldn't be that difficult but it is for you people. Terminator armor was never tough to begin with and Centurions proved that by doing the role you keep trying to put on Terminators when they never frickin did it to begin with.

Terminator:

-Toughness 5
-Strength 5 Storm Bolter
-1 in 3 Terminators can have a heavy weapon, or jut 2 at 5 and 4 at 10 man squads.
-Have a Warp Shunt Move like Grey Knight Interceptors
-Hammer of Wrath

Creating a fix built around stormshields though leaves grey knights (and other non-shield units) in the dark.

I'm not convinced more rerolling is necessary.

Upping the Toughness to 5 and the Wounds by 1 for terminator armor, and reducing the save to 3+ would have the following effect:

The last 2 columns are the number of expected shots to kill 1 Terminator

STR AP T4,1W,2+ T5,2W,3+ -------------------------------------- 4 4 18 27 4 3 18 14 4 2 05 14 5 4 14 18 5 3 14 09 5 2 03 09 6 4 11 14 6 3 11 07 6 2 03 07 7 4 11 11 7 3 11 05 7 2 03 05

So against anything >AP3, or equal to AP2, the 3+, 5T, 2W termies win out handily. Against AP3, the current setup is better. However, it's much easier to improve on a 5++ save, such as a stormshield. Additionally, you have to look at the availability of weapons you'd be facing. AP3 would be better in this scenario, but your options of taking AP3 are actually more limiting than AP2. To trace "grav" onto this chart, against the 3+ guys it would be equivalent to 5strAP2/3 (09 shots) and against 2+ it would be 6+strAP2 (03 shots). So with this layout terminators actually live 3x as long against grav (expected).

Also, this is to kill. if your terminators are under sustained fire you could adjust them on your turn so the wounded terminators are in the back, allowing them to continue the fight.

It also means termies with 3++ stormshields would do a fairly good job tanking grav weaponry. To trace that, Look at strength 5, Ap4. 18 grav dice shots kill 1 termie. (not factoring in rerolls from grav amp).

Wow. That's a hell of a difference even with only a 3+ save.

 ILegion wrote:
Wow. That's a hell of a difference even with only a 3+ save.

Coincidentally this also shows why people are doing well with Thunderwolf Cavalry and Wulfen. You put Stormshields on them, and their toughness and wounds make them pretty hardy.

I think that outside of a major rules change and a shake up of everything, there will never be a fix. Personally I'd do something like this in terms of power level, cost and firepower.

Marines - Terminators - Centurions - Dreadnoughts
2 Wound - 3 Wound - 3 Wound - 6 wounds
100 per 5 - 150 per 5 - 200 per 3 - 150 per dread
4+ - 3+/5++ - 3+ - 3+/4++

Idea being Terminators would just be 'elite infantry' in the kind of way AoS Skullreapers are compared to Blood Warriors.

Terminators are just elite infantry, next to Vanguard and Sternguard. That's where they belong.

Most of these fixes are just looking at TWC and Wraiths and then saying "me too".

Except they're really not as good as sternguard at the moment. If you want to put them on that level you'd think they'd be equivalent for internal balance purposes.

 Melissia wrote:
Except they're really not as good as sternguard at the moment. If you want to put them on that level you'd think they'd be equivalent for internal balance purposes.

Good point but it's half the story until we ask how they stack up against Vanguard.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 ILegion wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Stormbolters S5 causes more issues though, they need their own version of the thing and that can be S5.

Literally ZERO issues are caused by a S5 universal Storm Bolter. Name one. Please. I insist.

Here's a starter.


Also makes heavy bolters even worse. A stormbolter, if it's getting any changes, should get more shots and/or shred maybe.

So Grey Knights having S5 shooting is an issue? LOL k
Because the codex is super strong as is? Even the 5th edition was designed for 6th anyway and look how powerful it was in 6th. Bad answer but I give you credit for trying.

I was going for the more amusing answer cause like I wasn't quite sure anyway but went with it cause daemons.
I think the issues with the terminators likely only got worse with the release of the centurions as they're kind of like pushed out of what seemed like their role leaving them as expensive glorified tacticals now and last time I checked those sucked too. I don't know, they're meant to be the sledgehammer of the marines but instead we get this.

Still at the same time I don't want to see the stormbolter start stepping on the toes of the heavy bolter as yet another issue is created where the heavy bolter is even worse. Given its rate of fire the stormbolter should more likely be looked at as like a possible smaller version of the assault cannon and perhaps 4 shots at s4 ap4 with rending would work. However then we get back to the grey knights and if that's a good idea on a larger scale. So that's kind of why I think they should just give terminators a different version of the stormbolter rather than a global change to stormbolters cause we all know GW won't look at things outside of a vacuum and thus likely screw that up too.

What toes? The Heavy Bolter HAS nothing going for it anyway. Besides, everyone already knows they should be Heavy 4 or Salvo 2/4.

So why not then just give all the terminators heavy bolters since they have relentless? At least they did last time I checked.

Why HB when they could all take Assault Cannons? Its waaaayyyy better. And another question for dakka, do they HAVE to keep the storm bolter/AC? Why not give them a grav option. They are relentless after all and there aren't a whole lot of marines that can't take this anyways. Seems kinda silly that the elite 1st company can't take the best weapons while my scout sergeant can run around with a grav pistol all day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not saying this would fix everything or make them even remotely close to as good as centurions but it could help.

Grav is a newer type weapon. TDA is old. I think whatever changes are made to terms their weapon options need to remain the same. See my post above I think it's a nice way to adress both units and give them each a viable roll.

Graviton guns were in RT. They were weird then, and looking at the profile probably very annoying too.

 ILegion wrote:
Why HB when they could all take Assault Cannons? Its waaaayyyy better. And another question for dakka, do they HAVE to keep the storm bolter/AC? Why not give them a grav option. They are relentless after all and there aren't a whole lot of marines that can't take this anyways. Seems kinda silly that the elite 1st company can't take the best weapons while my scout sergeant can run around with a grav pistol all day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not saying this would fix everything or make them even remotely close to as good as centurions but it could help.

The point was with 2 S5 stormbolter shots base on a terminator, the HB is only a tiny bit extra on top of that. The HB would likely need even more readjusting than it needs at the moment. Which in turn could see the assault cannon needing a little work as well. The main issue is power creep and adding yet more power creep only prolongs the problem.

Yeah I'm really not in to this S5 stuff. The Stormbolter is an evolution of the twin-linked boltgun which was almost literally two boltguns slapped together. It should have roughly the same statline as a boltgun but faster firing.

There are already ways to make terminators durable if that is what you think they lack, across all codex versions no less (death guard/1k sons for chaos, psychic powers for all and super friends for the imperials). I cant be the only one who has noticed that no one is rushing to field paladins, deathwing command, iron hands + endurance etc?

What terminators need more than anything else is the ability to cause damage fitting their position - especially when every new released unit just makes them worse by comparison - compare assault terminators to wulfen or tac terminators to assault(!) centurions, then think about dev cents and die a little inside.

My thoughts on potential ways to buff damage output:

Imperial only:
Finally making sternguard ammo compatible with stormbolters (buffing while avoiding conflict with other stormbolter platforms)
Allow sarge wargear; 1st co vet sarge is meant to be the highest position a non-officer can hold yet he has way less options than a 10th co sarge.

Chaos only:
Mark of chaos unlocks wargear (sonic weapons/slaanesh, poison/nurgle, ap3/tzeentch, axe of khorne or a double handed chainaxe like the wulfen great axe)
VotLW unlocks heresy era wargear (volkites, plasma blasters)
Bring back 2nd edition bayonets, +1 attack if carrying a gun

Universal:
HoW
More reliable deepstrike - not necessarily scatter reduction but instead the ability to mishap back into ongoing reserves instead of auto death options
2 heavy weapons always allowed
Different heavy weapons than flamer or (insert name here) cannon.
Unwieldly weapons give -1I instead of I1
Pinning on all shooting attacks representative of a terminators unrelenting assault (they don't duck and cover)

Finally, terminators cant sweep due to how big they are. Surely there should be an upside to their huge stature? The ability to overwatch whilst in combat, or simply hammer of wrath out of combat isn't too hard to imagine.

 n0t_u wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 ILegion wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Stormbolters S5 causes more issues though, they need their own version of the thing and that can be S5.

Literally ZERO issues are caused by a S5 universal Storm Bolter. Name one. Please. I insist.

Here's a starter.


Also makes heavy bolters even worse. A stormbolter, if it's getting any changes, should get more shots and/or shred maybe.

So Grey Knights having S5 shooting is an issue? LOL k
Because the codex is super strong as is? Even the 5th edition was designed for 6th anyway and look how powerful it was in 6th. Bad answer but I give you credit for trying.

I was going for the more amusing answer cause like I wasn't quite sure anyway but went with it cause daemons.
I think the issues with the terminators likely only got worse with the release of the centurions as they're kind of like pushed out of what seemed like their role leaving them as expensive glorified tacticals now and last time I checked those sucked too. I don't know, they're meant to be the sledgehammer of the marines but instead we get this.

Still at the same time I don't want to see the stormbolter start stepping on the toes of the heavy bolter as yet another issue is created where the heavy bolter is even worse. Given its rate of fire the stormbolter should more likely be looked at as like a possible smaller version of the assault cannon and perhaps 4 shots at s4 ap4 with rending would work. However then we get back to the grey knights and if that's a good idea on a larger scale. So that's kind of why I think they should just give terminators a different version of the stormbolter rather than a global change to stormbolters cause we all know GW won't look at things outside of a vacuum and thus likely screw that up too.

What toes? The Heavy Bolter HAS nothing going for it anyway. Besides, everyone already knows they should be Heavy 4 or Salvo 2/4.

So why not then just give all the terminators heavy bolters since they have relentless? At least they did last time I checked.

Why HB when they could all take Assault Cannons? Its waaaayyyy better. And another question for dakka, do they HAVE to keep the storm bolter/AC? Why not give them a grav option. They are relentless after all and there aren't a whole lot of marines that can't take this anyways. Seems kinda silly that the elite 1st company can't take the best weapons while my scout sergeant can run around with a grav pistol all day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not saying this would fix everything or make them even remotely close to as good as centurions but it could help.

Grav is a newer type weapon. TDA is old. I think whatever changes are made to terms their weapon options need to remain the same. See my post above I think it's a nice way to adress both units and give them each a viable roll.

Graviton guns were in RT. They were weird then, and looking at the profile probably very annoying too.

 ILegion wrote:
Why HB when they could all take Assault Cannons? Its waaaayyyy better. And another question for dakka, do they HAVE to keep the storm bolter/AC? Why not give them a grav option. They are relentless after all and there aren't a whole lot of marines that can't take this anyways. Seems kinda silly that the elite 1st company can't take the best weapons while my scout sergeant can run around with a grav pistol all day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not saying this would fix everything or make them even remotely close to as good as centurions but it could help.

The point was with 2 S5 stormbolter shots base on a terminator, the HB is only a tiny bit extra on top of that. The HB would likely need even more readjusting than it needs at the moment. Which in turn could see the assault cannon needing a little work as well. The main issue is power creep and adding yet more power creep only prolongs the problem.

But the Assault Cannon never needed reworking. The only issue with it is lack of presence. Nobody has ever complained about the profile of it outside Martel, and his complaint does feel almost legit when you consider the fact that Eldar are an army that was made.

This thread confuses me.

Terminators were introduced to the game to do one thing: Close quarters assault on spacecrafts (Space Hulks, to be specific). Their weapons somewhat reflect this: Assault shooting and power fists for ripping open bulkheads and killing things very dead up close.

What terminators were not intended to do is fight on the open battlefield. Terminators do not need to be buffed to be able to do this. Terminators should not be doing this.

To me, every army contains units that are situational and probably shouldn't be deployed unless you know they'll be useful. Want to deploy terminators? Set up a game of urban combat and tell your opponent to come equipped for it.

 John Prins wrote:
This thread confuses me.

Terminators were introduced to the game to do one thing: Close quarters assault on spacecrafts (Space Hulks, to be specific). Their weapons somewhat reflect this: Assault shooting and power fists for ripping open bulkheads and killing things very dead up close.

What terminators were not intended to do is fight on the open battlefield. Terminators do not need to be buffed to be able to do this. Terminators should not be doing this.

To me, every army contains units that are situational and probably shouldn't be deployed unless you know they'll be useful. Want to deploy terminators? Set up a game of urban combat and tell your opponent to come equipped for it.

Okay, but they really suck for that too, and can't be used for Killteam, which might reflect the first situation.

 John Prins wrote:
This thread confuses me.

Terminators were introduced to the game to do one thing: Close quarters assault on spacecrafts (Space Hulks, to be specific). Their weapons somewhat reflect this: Assault shooting and power fists for ripping open bulkheads and killing things very dead up close.

What terminators were not intended to do is fight on the open battlefield. Terminators do not need to be buffed to be able to do this. Terminators should not be doing this.

To me, every army contains units that are situational and probably shouldn't be deployed unless you know they'll be useful. Want to deploy terminators? Set up a game of urban combat and tell your opponent to come equipped for it.

I agree with a lot of this. Id'd still like to see the RoF for the storm bolter boosted though.

Bit of a side note, but related to storm bolters. If the thing is two bolters strapped together more or less, why does it not get rapid fire or at least the ability to reroll misses like twin linked? I know it would be pointless for some groups of termies, but it's always just confused me.

 mmzero252 wrote:
Bit of a side note, but related to storm bolters. If the thing is two bolters strapped together more or less, why does it not get rapid fire or at least the ability to reroll misses like twin linked? I know it would be pointless for some groups of termies, but it's always just confused me.

I think the issue is that, essentially, storm bolters have been somewhat left behind as the rapid fire rules, introduced in 3rd edition, have evolved. It used to be that, under the majority of circumstances, bolters only got one shot. Storm bolters always got two. Nowadays, bolters get two shots more frequently, meaning the step up to an SB is less impressive. Personally, I'd like to see them get Assault 3 (or maybe even 4, if that's not overdoing it), maybe pop the range down to 18" – after all, they are designed for close-quarters fighting.

 Nazrak wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
Bit of a side note, but related to storm bolters. If the thing is two bolters strapped together more or less, why does it not get rapid fire or at least the ability to reroll misses like twin linked? I know it would be pointless for some groups of termies, but it's always just confused me.

I think the issue is that, essentially, storm bolters have been somewhat left behind as the rapid fire rules, introduced in 3rd edition, have evolved. It used to be that, under the majority of circumstances, bolters only got one shot. Storm bolters always got two. Nowadays, bolters get two shots more frequently, meaning the step up to an SB is less impressive. Personally, I'd like to see them get Assault 3 (or maybe even 4, if that's not overdoing it), maybe pop the range down to 18" – after all, they are designed for close-quarters fighting.

I think some form of salvo would be nifty. 3 shots base with a 4th within half range or something. Honestly I only take them on blobs of sisters because they tend to be bubble wrap for someone more important. Can't risk that flamer range.

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
Bit of a side note, but related to storm bolters. If the thing is two bolters strapped together more or less, why does it not get rapid fire or at least the ability to reroll misses like twin linked? I know it would be pointless for some groups of termies, but it's always just confused me.

I think the issue is that, essentially, storm bolters have been somewhat left behind as the rapid fire rules, introduced in 3rd edition, have evolved. It used to be that, under the majority of circumstances, bolters only got one shot. Storm bolters always got two. Nowadays, bolters get two shots more frequently, meaning the step up to an SB is less impressive. Personally, I'd like to see them get Assault 3 (or maybe even 4, if that's not overdoing it), maybe pop the range down to 18" – after all, they are designed for close-quarters fighting.

I think some form of salvo would be nifty. 3 shots base with a 4th within half range or something. Honestly I only take them on blobs of sisters because they tend to be bubble wrap for someone more important. Can't risk that flamer range.

Hmm maybe. I'm still adjusting to the existence of Salvo as I dropped out of 40K around 4th and only came back during 7th and, being an old, new things are scary and confusing.

 Nazrak wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
Bit of a side note, but related to storm bolters. If the thing is two bolters strapped together more or less, why does it not get rapid fire or at least the ability to reroll misses like twin linked? I know it would be pointless for some groups of termies, but it's always just confused me.

I think the issue is that, essentially, storm bolters have been somewhat left behind as the rapid fire rules, introduced in 3rd edition, have evolved. It used to be that, under the majority of circumstances, bolters only got one shot. Storm bolters always got two. Nowadays, bolters get two shots more frequently, meaning the step up to an SB is less impressive. Personally, I'd like to see them get Assault 3 (or maybe even 4, if that's not overdoing it), maybe pop the range down to 18" – after all, they are designed for close-quarters fighting.

I think some form of salvo would be nifty. 3 shots base with a 4th within half range or something. Honestly I only take them on blobs of sisters because they tend to be bubble wrap for someone more important. Can't risk that flamer range.

Hmm maybe. I'm still adjusting to the existence of Salvo as I dropped out of 40K around 4th and only came back during 7th and, being an old, new things are scary and confusing.

I do relatively know how you feel. I started within 12 months ago, but I main an army with rules from basically 15 years ago. I still don't get any fancy new toys. Heck, a necron opponent was shocked my vehicles didn't have "Primary Weapon" or anything like it...but that all DIDN'T EXIST when Sisters were last updated.

 Nazrak wrote:

Hmm maybe. I'm still adjusting to the existence of Salvo as I dropped out of 40K around 4th and only came back during 7th and, being an old, new things are scary and confusing.

I know what you mean. I stopped in 5th and while looking to come back I don't know wtf is going on anymore because of how many rules there are and how much has changed. The game really suffers from power creep and rules bloat, it needs to be redone and AoS-ified. As much as people bitch about it the rules are easy to pick up and understand while still having enough depth in the gameplay.

When a game is deeper in rules than it is gameplay something has messed up somewhere.

I don't know about all of you but I really struggle when I try to think of 'Oh this unit as a 3 up armor save, but it has the one special rule that lets it re-roll failed saves, then another rule that increases it, then another unit has this other rule that affects the first units rule, and it's all encompassed by that one item that one other dude took that has a special rule on the item and on the character that also affects the unit and the special rule that affects the army'

 Nazrak wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
Bit of a side note, but related to storm bolters. If the thing is two bolters strapped together more or less, why does it not get rapid fire or at least the ability to reroll misses like twin linked? I know it would be pointless for some groups of termies, but it's always just confused me.

I think the issue is that, essentially, storm bolters have been somewhat left behind as the rapid fire rules, introduced in 3rd edition, have evolved. It used to be that, under the majority of circumstances, bolters only got one shot. Storm bolters always got two. Nowadays, bolters get two shots more frequently, meaning the step up to an SB is less impressive. Personally, I'd like to see them get Assault 3 (or maybe even 4, if that's not overdoing it), maybe pop the range down to 18" – after all, they are designed for close-quarters fighting.

I think some form of salvo would be nifty. 3 shots base with a 4th within half range or something. Honestly I only take them on blobs of sisters because they tend to be bubble wrap for someone more important. Can't risk that flamer range.

Hmm maybe. I'm still adjusting to the existence of Salvo as I dropped out of 40K around 4th and only came back during 7th and, being an old, new things are scary and confusing.

For what it's worth, Salvo is basically a callback to the original Psycannons of the 3rd edition Daemonhunters codex.

Although everything that uses salvo weapons seems to have relentless, so it doesn't really matter.

 John Prins wrote:
This thread confuses me.

Terminators were introduced to the game to do one thing: Close quarters assault on spacecrafts (Space Hulks, to be specific). Their weapons somewhat reflect this: Assault shooting and power fists for ripping open bulkheads and killing things very dead up close.

What terminators were not intended to do is fight on the open battlefield. Terminators do not need to be buffed to be able to do this. Terminators should not be doing this.

To me, every army contains units that are situational and probably shouldn't be deployed unless you know they'll be useful. Want to deploy terminators? Set up a game of urban combat and tell your opponent to come equipped for it.

The problem is partially that terminators aren't described as specialists trained and equipped for very particular scenarios but the absolute elite of the chapter sent in when nothing but the very best will do the trick. If terminator armour was simply another piece of equipment like bikes or jump packs and if they maybe had slightly revamped base weaponry we wouldn't be having the current problem to the same degree.