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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/27 23:50:20
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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More S4 is useless for marines. The game has already moved past S4 shooting being remotely scary.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/27 23:50:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/28 00:26:44
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Str 4 was never meant to be scary and indeed the Storm Bolters are not their main armament, their power fist is.
I know you ignore the fluff Martel and give 0 gaks about it, but the fact remains that in the fluff the Storm Bolter is their side arm.
Tactical Terminators aren't meant to be a shooty unit, their a mixed unit with a focus on CC to deal heavy damage. Unfortunately CC is terrible this edition for the most part, especially if you have no way to get there.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/28 00:28:23
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Matt.Kingsley wrote:Str 4 was never meant to be scary and indeed the Storm Bolters are not their main armament, their power fist is.
I know you ignore the fluff Martel and give 0 gaks about it, but the fact remains that in the fluff the Storm Bolter is their side arm.
Tactical Terminators aren't meant to be a shooty unit, their a mixed unit with a focus on CC to deal heavy damage. Unfortunately CC is terrible this edition for the most part, especially if you have no way to get there.
Then they are a true failure that can't be helped if they are counting on an init 1 melee weapon with only a 5++ invuln save. That's never going to work when the lowliest Eldar guy ignores the 2+ 16% of the time and MCs just lulz.
These losers can't even sweep a combat. They are crap CC units.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/28 00:29:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/28 01:00:47
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Unusual Suspect wrote:
Rapid Fire 2 is not a meaningful weapon profile.
Do you mean something like "2 shots at max range, 4 shots at half range"?
Have you never seen Hurricane Bolters?
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/28 01:26:39
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Stealthy Kroot Stalker
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Well, yes, I have. They're described in the way I was asking (and presumed you meant), but they aren't represented by "Rapid Fire X" to my knowledge. It was your nomenclature I was mostly confused by.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/28 01:37:12
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I'm like 98% sure they're listed as Rapid Fire 3, Twin Linked
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/28 01:46:28
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Stealthy Kroot Stalker
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I'm honestly not sure at all anymore.
When I get home, I'll check my books, and publicly eat crow if I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/28 02:43:20
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Death-Dealing Devastator
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Are you sure? Hurricane bolters are rapid fire 3.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/28 03:13:37
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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Change to a d10 system.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/28 03:37:57
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Battlegrinder wrote:
Are you sure? Hurricane bolters are rapid fire 3.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I'm like 98% sure they're listed as Rapid Fire 3, Twin Linked
They're not. Hurricane Bolters are "Three Twin-Linked Bolters fired as a single weapon".
They are not Rng 24" Str 4 AP 5 Rapid Fire 3 Twin-linked. Such a profile has no proper meaning in 40k.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/28 08:31:15
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Auspicious Skink Shaman
Louth, Ireland
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Give terminators a 1+ save, they a still fail on a 1 but only ap1 weapons ignore it completely. Storm shield gives 4++ with a reroll to all saves.
Storm bolters become salvo 2/4
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 21:55:17
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Clousseau
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Soteks Prophet wrote:Give terminators a 1+ save, they a still fail on a 1 but only ap1 weapons ignore it completely. Storm shield gives 4++ with a reroll to all saves.
Storm bolters become salvo 2/4
This is flat out insane.
A 2+ rerollable against AP2 would be insane. 36 shots would expect 1 wound.
Anyone who took a storm bolter when they could have a stormshield at that point would be crazy, or a Grey Knight.
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Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you 
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 23:07:36
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp
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Keep in mind, Scarab Occult Terminators can already reroll 1's using formation bonuses. They perform well, also having easy access to a 3++.
When we get Deathshroud Terminators in 40k (Nurgle Cult), 2W, T5 and FNP will make perfect sense.
I think they will both be situated well, but they're also supposed to be significantly tougher than regular Terminators. So vanilla types really shouldn't have equal durability.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 01:16:21
Subject: Re:Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols
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I always say in these situations that 40k itself would need to be fixed before any unit can be fixed but I'll offer some suggestions anyway.
First off, did anyone suggest giving terminators sternguard special ammunition? I know that storm bolters can't take it but this could be changed. Now of a sudden those Storm bolters are ignoring cover or functioning as plasma guns.
Second of all, give them a toughness and wound boost. T5 and 2W at the very least, but personally I'd favour either T6 2W or T5 3W. Actually to hell with it, let's make them like little mini MCs. Give them T7 and 2W. That'll help with plasma a bit (going from 2+ to 4+ for wounding), will make them immune to some small arms fire (as they should be), and will also ease up the instant death. Price them accordingly afterwards of course.
These suggestions are on the extreme side I know but desperate times call for desperate measures, and it's truly desperate how crap Terminators are compeared to what they're supposed to be.
EDIT:
Nah, here's a better way to look at it. Regulars marines are T4 with 1W? And Centurions are T5 with 2Ws? Well, Terminators should be T6 with 3Ws.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/02 01:22:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 01:22:19
Subject: Re:Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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So you suggest making a Terminator more powerful than a GUO? Same toughness, half the wounds, higher Str (with the Powerfist)...
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 01:24:17
Subject: Re:Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols
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Toughess 6 with 3 wounds is my revised suggestion. About level with a carnifex.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 01:33:11
Subject: Re:Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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How many points should they be, then?
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 01:39:23
Subject: Re:Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols
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I'm going to say 50pts each, with a 5pt "tax" for the the sergeant. So at a minimum 255pts for 5. This would be without the special ammo boost, because I'm not sure about that one.
You can't get their save any better (normal or invulnerable) so it's about reducing the score needed to wound.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/02 01:42:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 01:43:00
Subject: Re:Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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So for 50 points you get 3 T6 wounds? For comparison, a Bloodthirster is 5 T6 wounds. And he's, what? 150?
He does have some other buffs, like higher WS and I, but 5 Terminators that are T6 with 3 wounds apiece will wreck two Thirsters.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 01:52:23
Subject: Re:Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols
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How about 70pts each then? Double their current price. That's 355pts minimum. With upgrades that would probably hit 400pts (I'm not sure, I don't have my codex to hand).
Although it sounds like the Bloodthirster could use a boost too. But then again, I've never fought demons ever, in my 20 years of doing this so I'm probably wrong.
We could fine tweak it but am I on the right course?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/02 01:56:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 03:01:53
Subject: Re:Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper
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Future War Cultist wrote:How about 70pts each then? Double their current price. That's 355pts minimum. With upgrades that would probably hit 400pts (I'm not sure, I don't have my codex to hand).
Although it sounds like the Bloodthirster could use a boost too. But then again, I've never fought demons ever, in my 20 years of doing this so I'm probably wrong.
We could fine tweak it but am I on the right course?
I think you just nerfed them by maing them 70 a pop it means your head count will be so low even grey knights or death watch will have you out numbered if you feild more then 3 or 4
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Ultramarine 6000 : Imperial Knights 1700 : Grey Knights 1000 : Ad mech 500 :Nids 4000 : Necrons 500 : Death watch 500 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 05:48:12
Subject: Re:Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Implacable Black Templar Initiate
USA
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*UPDATED DUE TO ONGOING CONVERSATION*
Bikes no longer grant +1T, they instead grant +1W.
A space marine simply sitting on a mortorcycle does absolutely nothing to make damaging him harder. However, it does make it harder to hit him specifically, and not just the motorcycle, hence the extra wound as it's an extra seperate target.
TDA grants a 2+/5++ and +1T.
A space marine wearing TDA does not present two possible targets, therefore there should not be multiple wounds. You either hit the TDA wearing marine or not. A TDA wearing marine is wearing superior and thicker armor, and while they have a good save, small arms should be relatively ineffectual against it, even en masse, hence the extra toughness we've been asking for for forever. FnP is pointless as a 5+ roll that can be denied by ID weapons negates it, and TDA should always have a chance to shrug off a particularly deadly shot/blow.
Points cost remains the same for TDA.
Points cost for Bikes goes up to 15 pts. for NON ICs as it effectively doubles the model count as well as a point extra for the movement bonus and Jink.
Points cost for ICs wanting to ride a bike remain the same as they do not benefit as much from another wound and can now be ID'd by STR 8.
Tactical Termies continue to cost 35pts for the traditional Storm Bolter/PF loadout.
Any Terminator may replace their Storm Bolter with a Heavy Flamer for 5pts.
Any Terminator may replace their Storm Bolter with an Assault Cannon for 10pts.
Any Terminator may replace their Storm Bolter with a Plasma Cannon for 15 pts.
The Sgt can be upgraded to Veteran for 10 pts.
The SGT and/or Veteran SGT may replace his Power Sword with a Power Fist for 10pts. That's the difference in cost between the two as of this edition/posting.
The Veteran SGT may replace his Power Sword with a Lightning Claw, Power Axe or Power Maul for free. You're already paying for Veteran status, why pay more for a points 'sidegrade'? Plus, a SGT that's been in the Company/Chapter for a few centuries will more than likely be able to walk into S3 and get something different.
TDA grants +1 Initiative to Unweildly Weapons.
TDA now grants sweeping advance as it is not Slow and Purposeful.
TDA continues to allow Teleport/Deep Strike as well as count as two models for the purposes of transports' capacity.
No more Cyclone Missile Launcher, long range is Devastator (of whatever flavor) stuff, not 'uparmored' shock troops/boarding party troops.
*UPDATED DUE TO ONGOING CONVERSATION*
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/03/03 01:14:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 07:28:44
Subject: Re:Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Cackling Chaos Conscript
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Oppressor wrote:
Any Terminator may replace their Storm Bolter with a Plasma Cannon for 15 pts.
No more Cyclone Missile Launcher, long range is Devastator (of whatever flavor) stuff, not 'uparmored' shock troops/boarding party troops.
The Sgt can be upgraded to Veteran for 10 pts.
All terminators are already veterans.
Also I don't see why restrict cyclone but allow plasmacan if you don't want them to do devastators job, and what with all the people's models already built with CMLs?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 13:46:59
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran
Canada
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i think a better way would be to just give them rules changes
TDA for GK and DA players grants just default charge from DS however the upgrade for TDA goes up on characters by 5 pts from its current cost to 40pts this makes their "elite of the elite" terminators genuinely elite. and improves their tactical felxibility over others
on top of that specialist TDA units like paladins, deathwing knights, blood angels/da/GK commands and the WGT's all can take their land raider for free if they purchase an SB. chaos space marines share this bonus with mutes and get it on all their CSM termites (scarabs dont get this). to offset this we put a hard cap back on command squads to 1 per HQ in your army and DWK's cannot buy extra models if they take the free raider (so their capped at 5). WGT's can take a storm fang instead of a raider at a reduced cost
one of the biggest problems is that terminators cannot get around and their value is often determined in their first combat action a free land raider on their cost effectively halves their cost without actually halving their costs while dramatically improving their value. this effectively means a 1250pts list with 1 squad of terminators is now a 1500pts list and if the gladius and lions balde showed us anything its that if you give us free gak the army lists will come out in force. and a land raider is certainly a very enticing lure. this also solves the problem of mobility of terminators to an extent.
you could on top of this add a formation to stronghold assault that lets an imperial player who takes so many squads of terminators get to pick a free fortification off a roster of them. so now on top of a raider you have a free building which if nothing more is a conversation piece to park couts into and get sick cover saves
essentially we fight the ridiculous rules packages of cheaper units and tougher opponents that exist in their own points bracket of 250ish with raw value and eventually somewhere in there the terminator carves his own niche and we keep piling that value on until we achieve a balance where if you take him and can take advantage of the perks if only situational, are making up for their shortcomings to the point where you scarcely care if they kill anything at all.
if i throw enough free bastions at you.. youll eventually put down the imperial knight and take some terminators
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/02 13:49:33
DA army: 3500pts,
admech army: 600pts
ravenguard: 565 pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 15:13:42
Subject: Re:Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Implacable Black Templar Initiate
USA
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Sonic Keyboard wrote:Oppressor wrote:
Any Terminator may replace their Storm Bolter with a Plasma Cannon for 15 pts.
No more Cyclone Missile Launcher, long range is Devastator (of whatever flavor) stuff, not 'uparmored' shock troops/boarding party troops.
The Sgt can be upgraded to Veteran for 10 pts.
All terminators are already veterans.
My apologies, I did overlook that, the intent was to provide another melee attack usually granted by Veteran status as of this codex for the Sgt as well as his new ability to choose from all the Power Weapon options. I just couldn't/didn't think of a better way to quickly and easily represent that.
Also I don't see why restrict cyclone but allow plasmacan if you don't want them to do devastators job, and what with all the people's models already built with CMLs?
Honestly, I did debate this one very much. My personal reasoning was that 36" was a nice 'go between' to still offer a bit of range, as well as destructive power to massed Troops, MCs, other 'Elite' Troops and light(er) Vehicle armor while still not offering 'full battlefield range' of a missile as well as the lack of the ability to shoot at fliers. Also, no overwatch.
As far as models already equiped with CMLs, well, yes, that does stink for them, but it's placement makes it's removal rather easy tbh, as well as now selling a ton MORE terminators (or at least bits, because afterall, who's NOT going to want to upgrade their Storm Bolters, which again means either remodelling or purchasing new Terminators). That's more sales for GW using an existing product line which means less money spent by them to produce it.
Let's be honest, a new codex does usually come with new/different weapon options and points costs. We all have armies that must be changed because of this. It's not some new unexpected slap in the face and the benefits surely outweigh the dissadvantages.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/02 15:27:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 15:53:23
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I simply LOVE that someone just suggested out of the blue that Bikers gain a wound rather than toughness and totally didn't think of any consequences that could possibly happen.
This thread really brought out the stupid in some people.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 16:00:44
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Death-Dealing Devastator
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I simply LOVE that someone just suggested out of the blue that Bikers gain a wound rather than toughness and totally didn't think of any consequences that could possibly happen.
This thread really brought out the stupid in some people.
Stupidity like insulting other users because you don't like their ideas?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/02 16:00:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 16:16:32
Subject: Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Implacable Black Templar Initiate
USA
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I simply LOVE that someone just suggested out of the blue that Bikers gain a wound rather than toughness and totally didn't think of any consequences that could possibly happen.
This thread really brought out the stupid in some people.
Rather than post vitriol, please explain the fault in the logic I used to describe the change. Also, they would still be ID'd by double STR attacks (particularly devastating damage that is too powerful to simply 'graze' off a 'wound') while remaining more able to be whittled down by small arms fire.
I actually believe this change should affect all mounts like Thunderwolf mounts, it's another wound/target/thing to hit, not simply tougher to damage as a whole.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/02 16:20:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 16:32:15
Subject: Re:Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols
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@ Slayer-Fan123.
Please remember rule number one. If you have a problem with anyone's ideas politely explain why instead of getting unnecessarily nasty about it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/02 16:50:35
Subject: Re:Will Tactical Dreadnought armor ever be viable?
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[DCM]
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Future War Cultist wrote:@ Slayer-Fan123.
Please remember rule number one. If you have a problem with anyone's ideas politely explain why instead of getting unnecessarily nasty about it.
Yes, exactly.
As always, do not personally attack the poster, debate the points of the post.
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