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Broken record mode activated

Make them T5, make the storm bolter either rapid fire rending, or shred.

Assault terminators or terminators equipped in full melee gear, may charge out of deep strike as if it was a disordered charge.

Terminators are meant to me the shock troopers, so give them some shock.

Yes, if they could assault out of teleporting they'd be really useful. I think assaulting out of deep strike and reserves should be brought back.

How about:

A storm bolter counts as two bolters. Both may be fired at the same time.

It wouldn't fix everything but it would probably make their guns better.
I feel like the only way to fix the armor would be to keep it at 2+ but move to a d10 system so that you can properly represent its toughness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Broken record mode activated

Make them T5, make the storm bolter either rapid fire rending, or shred.

Assault terminators or terminators equipped in full melee gear, may charge out of deep strike as if it was a disordered charge.

Terminators are meant to me the shock troopers, so give them some shock.

Where do you get this idea that they're meant to be shock troopers? They're meant to be walking tanks.

NivlacSupreme wrote:
How about:

A storm bolter counts as two bolters. Both may be fired at the same time.

It wouldn't fix everything but it would probably make their guns better.
I feel like the only way to fix the armor would be to keep it at 2+ but move to a d10 system so that you can properly represent its toughness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Broken record mode activated

Make them T5, make the storm bolter either rapid fire rending, or shred.

Assault terminators or terminators equipped in full melee gear, may charge out of deep strike as if it was a disordered charge.

Terminators are meant to me the shock troopers, so give them some shock.

Where do you get this idea that they're meant to be shock troopers? They're meant to be walking tanks.

Lore wise they are heavily armored shocked tools because of their teleporters. They were utilized by teleporting behind or into the enemy and breaking them. IE a shock trooper, hit hard and fast from no where.

The other issue is, unless you give them a niche role like that they will remain worthless becuase the walking tank role is already filled by other units and better. The only hope terminators have is if they are put into a shock trooper role

Sounds like the answer is "no". I blame the stormbolter. It has always been the weak link. That and being unable to sweep. Csm terminators with reaper autocannon and blastmasters were dope in the day. Loyalist terminators have pretty much always been failures.

Martel732 wrote:
Sounds like the answer is "no". I blame the stormbolter. It has always been the weak link. That and being unable to sweep.

Well once they add tartaros (?) to 40k we will be able to

Oppressor wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're still only looking at Devastator Centurions. You keep forgetting how inferior both versions of Terminators are to Assault Centurions.

I have not forgotten about Ass Cents.

Ass Cents have at best 24" range with Hurricane Bolters. Otherwise it's 12" with a TL Melta. They are melee specialists first and foremost with the ability to deal with something directly in front them at best. They want to charge. They have to charge. They do NOT have impressive firepower.

AssCents want to be in melee.
AssCents do NOT want to be standing around between targets.
AssCents swing two STR10 AP2 unwieldly power weapons at initiative each.
They are for wrecking face, face to face, with some possible shooting at best.
They are Slow and Purposeful, so you better have a garaunteed way to get them to where they need to be for the rest of the game, because they are not going to be able to redeploy and/or offer any help anywhere else on the board anytime soon.

My proposed change allows Tactical Terminators to be able to stand and shoot, with impressive if not effective firepower, should that be all they can do.
Terminators are not Slow and Purposeful, so even if you teleported them in, they could at least Run somewhere to get in better range.

You clearly never read the codex in explicit detail.
1. No they don't have impressive firepower. Neither do either Terminator variants. 9 TL Bolter Shots with 3 TL Melta Guns is better than 8-10 regular Bolter shots with either 4 S6 Rending or 2 S8 AP3. You made mention of an effective range, but Terminators aren't any more effective from outside 12"? Ergo, they want to charge too. The Tactical variant is simply worse at it than the Assault variant.
2. They have the same guaranteed ways to get to combat that Terminators do. They have Land Raiders as transports, can be Deep Striking with a simple Pod, or have Psyker powers getting them around. They simply survive better and handle combat better, so to say they're any slower is dishonesty to yourself. This is do to the fact that:
3. They're shooting a ton more and only have a few less attacks for the cost of either squad. When you buy the Omni-Scope and Sergeant upgrade (latter isn't necessary but nice), you have 7 S10 attacks with an overkill Armorbane. Adding a Pod and Melta Guns is a squad that costs 210 points, or 225 with a Deathwind Launcher. For near these same costs, you're getting Hammernators or a Tactical Terminator squad with a range upgrade and Chainfist.

That's why MY fixes are all about fixing their offensive output for their cost, all while fixing other lacking parts of the game.
1. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points base, with the TH/SS upgrade being either 5 or the new 10 points.
2. Storm Bolters are S5 (fixing several issues with the weapon itself and how garbage it is anyway).
3. 2 Heavy Weapons at the minimum squad and an extra one at 10 men. This, along with the cheaper cost of the assault variant, makes combat squad an actually appealing rule.
4. Assault Cannons are 15 points
5. All Land Raider variants are 190 points base.

Suddenly they have a true all-out assault capability which was meant to be reflected in their rules but never quite got there.

"All Land Raider variants are 190 points base. "

It's still sketchy at that price, but I'll take it.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Here's another idea -- Terminators are immune to effects like Rending and Bladestorm.

It doesn't change their statline, but their armor will be more effective and actually outperform Centurions.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
also lighting claws and TH/SS beat the heck out of power fists. and a power sword...

The tradeoff here should be firepower. If Tac Terminators can fire 20x SB shots within 12", let's say they kill six Daemonettes who would otherwise strike first at Initiative 5. I do think they take less casualties this way.

There needs to be a rate of fire fix like psuedo-rapidfire, but that's a change which I think would be welcomed.

10 termies get 20 shots the same as at 24 as at 12. they are not rapid fire weapons instead only firing 2 shots always at range. 5 termies net 10 shots unless another weapon is taken

Plus they are S4 shots, which are basically irrelevant. I know, queue up T3 army players to complain, but really, is the Tau army a T3 army anymore? No, it's T6. Because Gundam.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
10 termies get 20 shots the same as at 24 as at 12. they are not rapid fire weapons instead only firing 2 shots always at range. 5 termies net 10 shots unless another weapon is taken

Yes, I know. It's a change which I think would help. Being able to keep up with Wraiths is good IMO.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Plus they are S4 shots, which are basically irrelevant. I know, queue up T3 army players to complain, but really, is the Tau army a T3 army anymore? No, it's T6. Because Gundam.

If you want Terminators to be a popular netlist unit, they have to be broken to keep up.

In which case, any fix is going to be ugly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Oppressor wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're still only looking at Devastator Centurions. You keep forgetting how inferior both versions of Terminators are to Assault Centurions.

I have not forgotten about Ass Cents.

Ass Cents have at best 24" range with Hurricane Bolters. Otherwise it's 12" with a TL Melta. They are melee specialists first and foremost with the ability to deal with something directly in front them at best. They want to charge. They have to charge. They do NOT have impressive firepower.

AssCents want to be in melee.
AssCents do NOT want to be standing around between targets.
AssCents swing two STR10 AP2 unwieldly power weapons at initiative each.
They are for wrecking face, face to face, with some possible shooting at best.
They are Slow and Purposeful, so you better have a garaunteed way to get them to where they need to be for the rest of the game, because they are not going to be able to redeploy and/or offer any help anywhere else on the board anytime soon.

My proposed change allows Tactical Terminators to be able to stand and shoot, with impressive if not effective firepower, should that be all they can do.
Terminators are not Slow and Purposeful, so even if you teleported them in, they could at least Run somewhere to get in better range.

You clearly never read the codex in explicit detail.
1. No they don't have impressive firepower. Neither do either Terminator variants. 9 TL Bolter Shots with 3 TL Melta Guns is better than 8-10 regular Bolter shots with either 4 S6 Rending or 2 S8 AP3. You made mention of an effective range, but Terminators aren't any more effective from outside 12"? Ergo, they want to charge too. The Tactical variant is simply worse at it than the Assault variant.
2. They have the same guaranteed ways to get to combat that Terminators do. They have Land Raiders as transports, can be Deep Striking with a simple Pod, or have Psyker powers getting them around. They simply survive better and handle combat better, so to say they're any slower is dishonesty to yourself. This is do to the fact that:
3. They're shooting a ton more and only have a few less attacks for the cost of either squad. When you buy the Omni-Scope and Sergeant upgrade (latter isn't necessary but nice), you have 7 S10 attacks with an overkill Armorbane. Adding a Pod and Melta Guns is a squad that costs 210 points, or 225 with a Deathwind Launcher. For near these same costs, you're getting Hammernators or a Tactical Terminator squad with a range upgrade and Chainfist.

That's why MY fixes are all about fixing their offensive output for their cost, all while fixing other lacking parts of the game.
1. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points base, with the TH/SS upgrade being either 5 or the new 10 points.
2. Storm Bolters are S5 (fixing several issues with the weapon itself and how garbage it is anyway).
3. 2 Heavy Weapons at the minimum squad and an extra one at 10 men. This, along with the cheaper cost of the assault variant, makes combat squad an actually appealing rule.
4. Assault Cannons are 15 points
5. All Land Raider variants are 190 points base.

Suddenly they have a true all-out assault capability which was meant to be reflected in their rules but never quite got there.

Yes, I have read the codex thoroughly, thank you for the vote of confidence.

I had a retort, but at this point, I feel we are at an impass. I no longer wish to partake in what is effectually an exercise in futility that may devolve (further, and yes, I hold myself accountable as well).

I really hope that Terminators can be 'fixed'.

Take care.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
10 termies get 20 shots the same as at 24 as at 12. they are not rapid fire weapons instead only firing 2 shots always at range. 5 termies net 10 shots unless another weapon is taken

Yes, I know. It's a change which I think would help. Being able to keep up with Wraiths is good IMO.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Plus they are S4 shots, which are basically irrelevant. I know, queue up T3 army players to complain, but really, is the Tau army a T3 army anymore? No, it's T6. Because Gundam.

If you want Terminators to be a popular netlist unit, they have to be broken to keep up.

In which case, any fix is going to be ugly.

This is why my vote for the thread is "no". They will NEVER be viable. Especially with grav and centurions in the game. Much less grav centurions lol. No matter how many S4 shots you give them, they aren't worth their points and an elite slot. Riptide just don't care about that.

Eh to be honest if your doing a LR and termies you really should just take the extra 45 points for the Spartan assault take at that point.

But really terminators need more damage output to fill the shock trooper roll. 2 heavy weapons is a good start

Ignoring this discussion, Dropping eldar bikes to T3 is a huge deal, especially for the characters.

And then Space Marine bikes are getting ID'd to missile launchers, powerfists and the like.

Edit: I realize this is late to the discussion. I apologize

There's certainly been some interesting ideas. You don't really need a 2+ armour save either when its so easy to stack Shrouded and Jink.

Yoyoyo wrote:
There's certainly been some interesting ideas. You don't really need a 2+ armour save either when its so easy to stack Shrouded and Jink.

That's also relevant for sure.

This thread is why MY fix revolves around a migration to a D10 system. But that's a huge topic in and of itself. But it gives the granularity needed to differentiate terminator armor.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
10 termies get 20 shots the same as at 24 as at 12. they are not rapid fire weapons instead only firing 2 shots always at range. 5 termies net 10 shots unless another weapon is taken

Yes, I know. It's a change which I think would help. Being able to keep up with Wraiths is good IMO.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Plus they are S4 shots, which are basically irrelevant. I know, queue up T3 army players to complain, but really, is the Tau army a T3 army anymore? No, it's T6. Because Gundam.

If you want Terminators to be a popular netlist unit, they have to be broken to keep up.

In which case, any fix is going to be ugly.

Ah I see your meaning now, my mistake

it might help a bit, though rapid fire storm bolters would not make me think they can stand up to other elite offerings for the points

If Terminators had Smash or something like it, that would allow them to fight at their regular initiative whilst still packing a low AP. Maybe they should have Hammer Of Wraith too.

Would special ammo help too? I feel like now, special ammo should be standard issue for all the bolt pistols, bolters, combi bolters and storm bolters of veteran squads. That's vanguard, sternguard and terminators. If terminators could ignore cover or wound on a 2+ with their storm bolters they'd be a hell of a lot more useful.

I'm liking special ammo.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm liking special ammo.

Special Ammo should be reserved for Sternguard and any Storm Bolters they wish to purchase.

They SHOULD be on Deathwatch Terminators but that's an entirely different topic. Those guys can also get all Heavy Weapons for all 5 guys in a squad though so...

I think special ammo on termis makes sense I mean alot of them used to be stern guard maybe have it be 3 to 5 point upgrade.

I don't know. I think terminators are more elite than sternguard.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know. I think terminators are more elite than sternguard.

And it is this type of thinking that has people in here suggesting to fix Terminators by upping their defense a ridiculous amount because they "think" that's how it should be.

Leave things to the roles they were meant to have. Special Ammo is a Sternguard thing; if you give Special Ammo to Terminators you'd need to figure out a way to differentiate Sternguard even more.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know. I think terminators are more elite than sternguard.

And it is this type of thinking that has people in here suggesting to fix Terminators by upping their defense a ridiculous amount because they "think" that's how it should be.

Leave things to the roles they were meant to have. Special Ammo is a Sternguard thing; if you give Special Ammo to Terminators you'd need to figure out a way to differentiate Sternguard even more.

Funnily enough Sternguards are a good example of it. SM used to have C:SM Veterans instead of Sternguard, which mostly just had more units that could take special weapons. Then they gave then the Tyrannic War Veteran Special Ammo and that made them more unique.

I tend to think 40k needs a rewrite, and part of that rewrite would be to either downgrade a lot of weapons or upgrade the resilience of a lot of troops.

You could make Terminators T5, give them a 2+ followed by a 4+ invulnerable (ie. remove the "only gets 1 save" rule), I'd rewrite the AP system back to a modifier system like it was in 2nd though with much reduced modifiers and Terminators could have a rule where they halve the modifier of the weapon shooting at them, rounding down. Make Storm Bolters stronger and/or more shots. Terminator armour could make an unwieldy weapon be not unwieldy.

You could do a combination of a few of those things then adjust points accordingly.

While we're at it give my Tyranid Warriors T5, or just feth off the "instant death" rule.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I tend to think 40k needs a rewrite, and part of that rewrite would be to either downgrade a lot of weapons or upgrade the resilience of a lot of troops.

You could make Terminators T5, give them a 2+ followed by a 4+ invulnerable (ie. remove the "only gets 1 save" rule), I'd rewrite the AP system back to a modifier system like it was in 2nd though with much reduced modifiers and Terminators could have a rule where they halve the modifier of the weapon shooting at them, rounding down. Make Storm Bolters stronger and/or more shots. Terminator armour could make an unwieldy weapon be not unwieldy.

You could do a combination of a few of those things then adjust points accordingly.

While we're at it give my Tyranid Warriors T5, or just feth off the "instant death" rule.

Wait... The "one save" rule applies to invulns?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know. I think terminators are more elite than sternguard.

And it is this type of thinking that has people in here suggesting to fix Terminators by upping their defense a ridiculous amount because they "think" that's how it should be.

Leave things to the roles they were meant to have. Special Ammo is a Sternguard thing; if you give Special Ammo to Terminators you'd need to figure out a way to differentiate Sternguard even more.

Not really. Sternguard will still have much more firepower than Terminators thanks to their combi bolters and heavy weapons. And they'll be cheaper, won't be able to teleport and won't be as hard in close combat. There's enough differences there. Tactical Marines and Scout Marines both have bolt guns, but they're very different from each other in their tactical applications.

And I still think that Terminators should have their Toughness and Wounds increased. I'm just not so sure to what level.

Stormbolter always shoots twice when on Vehicles/Walkers/Terminators

Terminator Stormbolter on a six gets S5

Terminator Stormbolter can splitfire their second shooting attack with a successful leadership test

Terminators can Hammer of wrath, lemme smash

Chain fist keeps generating an additional attack on a six (Max generated enemies models hull/wound points)

NivlacSupreme wrote:

Wait... The "one save" rule applies to invulns?

Yup, and has since 2nd ed.

You can take your armor -or- your invuln -or- your cover save
Then any wound negate stuff, like Feel No Pain
And then any other shenanigans the work outside the normal system.

It’s one reason I like the idea of changing the TDA invuln to a FNP save. Or just give them FNP straight up on top of their invuln. Layered saves is pretty much the only way to stay alive out there.