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I agree on all points with armiger, chaos has a ton of similar point options that will fill the role AND get the DEATH GUARD keyword, main point being move/shoot heavy with no penalty.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I agree on all points with armiger, chaos has a ton of similar point options that will fill the role AND get the DEATH GUARD keyword, main point being move/shoot heavy with no penalty.

the only units which get similar role and get Dg kw are hellforged contemptors/deredeo and leviathan nothing else in main codex is anything close to armigers, i dont count hellbrutes cause they fire lot less and last lot less.

Have we really looked at a point for point comparison of models like Morty vs a Knight? Or Bloat drones or blight haulers or PBCs? Morty has quite a few less wounds, lower toughness, buckets of less shooting, but way better buff rules. Is he like way over priced compared to a knight?

i think all primarcs should have at least the same wounds as a Knight, 18 are too few in current 40k , the cost would be fine.

Worth noting that 18W with DR kind of equates to 24W. But yeah, the survivability of Primarchs (and other large personalities) that can’t keep their heads down is a major issue IMO, especially with a my turn - your turn game system.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Worth noting that 18W with DR kind of equates to 24W. But yeah, the survivability of Primarchs (and other large personalities) that can’t keep their heads down is a major issue IMO, especially with a my turn - your turn game system.

No because Ik's have T8 and that change a lot and last but not least now they have improved inv.saves (save at 4++/ 3++ inv is big in a model like that) practically a IK save like or better than Mortarion but have 6 more wounds , Ik are def more durable than a primarch (i played both multiple times and i experimented that). then Ik doesn't need to get in CaC do repay itself just stay in backfield away from some fire, and shoot taking out main threats, another big difference.

Personally I'd liked the primarchs more if they had been developed more into the force multiplyer direction like they are in 30k vs. this huge beatstick that wants to crash through enemy lines like a wrecking ball. Would've been cool and fluffy to have, say, Morty make your Death Guard infantry more resistant to morale (Perfect infantryman's creed and such) or allow them to use even more ungentlemanly weaponry like rad- or phosphex storages from his vaults. Well, doesn't line up with the need to sell big centerpiece models :/

 Brymm wrote:
Have we really looked at a point for point comparison of models like Morty vs a Knight? Or Bloat drones or blight haulers or PBCs? Morty has quite a few less wounds, lower toughness, buckets of less shooting, but way better buff rules. Is he like way over priced compared to a knight?

I haven't don't it for Morty vs a Knight but I have done PBCs, bloat-drones, and blight-haulers. Plaguespitter PBC is better against everything than it's drone counterpart even before you include the mortar. What drones have over the PBC is obviously fly, however I only ever found myself using this to ignore terrain and rarely to fall back and shoot, so I think PBCs are always more worth it. Entropy PBCs are better than the plaguespitter variants against vehicles, but there are much better things to fill this role and as we can only take 3, our PBCs are way better used aggressively with spitters imo.

A blight-hauler trilobe is one of the least points efficient units in the codex and should never be taken for their AT ability alone which sucks and gets even worse when you lose one of them. Imo they're never worth it and if you want to give your chaff a better save, just take a Deredeo with the 5++ bubble instead.

Edit: on the off chance I misinterpreted, and you wanted a comparison of those units specifically vs a knight, it goes entropy PBC > plaguespitter PBC > blight-hauler trilobe > plaguespitter drone. Our most cost efficient units to fights knights with are Blightspawn, soulburner Decimators, las/scourge helbrutes, and c-beam contemptors at 48"+ (in that order). That list doesn't include Morty but he's probably up there especially when buffed with blades +/ virulence. Another unit worth mentioning is a Nurgle DP from the Daemons book with the Corruption relic sword - that thing outperforms the c-beam contemptor on points efficiency even before you buff it with the locus +/ virulent blessing.

Of course each of these units have their pros and cons with need to be weighed up against their PPD efficiency

if you want play PBC same role as bloated drone you must use a gnarlmaw or ur pbc's are useless, they are charged and you cant shoot anymore.

See i think drones are much better than pbcs if you use them properly. Drones should be rushing forward and sitting 2 inches from enemy units and getting in the way/disrupting charges and LOS. People either have to deal with them and risk them exploding and doing more damage or ignore and move around them. If they ignore them then the drones can jump into the back lines and take out valuable targets.

in actual meta i will always take a drone instead a pbc, 10 guardsmen lock in combat a Pbc and that's annoying, i play tournaments regularly and found drones absolutely strong, the fly keyword is underestimated most of times., i won at least 2 games thanks to them last tournament, fly over screens flame something valuable then charge annoying shooting unit in backfield, fall back shoot again and make opponent think twice b4 charge again, you cant do that with a PBC without a tree. That doens't mean PCB arent strong just they are countered easier than drones ,they are anyway a good choice in Dg armies.

Personally I much prefer PBCs as they do more damage on their way in and are tougher to deal with once they've charged into enemy lines. I'm not worried about them being tied up because I use them to do the tying up. Ofc ymmv with either and it really comes down to personal preference

i think a good mix is have both of them.

 blackmage wrote:
i think a good mix is have both of them.

Yeah I think that's a fair call

FWIW I think the PBC rushdown is relying on a lot of rules interactions and I wouldn’t rely on it always being a thing. People who bought loads of Warp Talons to drop and Warptime in on the first turn aren’t best pleased, I’ve got three PBC to build and I’m not going to permanently glue the weapons in because who knows how they’ll behave a year or two down the line. Keep your spare parts and be prepared to completely change the way you use your big expensive kits

 blackmage wrote:
in actual meta i will always take a drone instead a pbc, 10 guardsmen lock in combat a Pbc and that's annoying, i play tournaments regularly and found drones absolutely strong, the fly keyword is underestimated most of times., i won at least 2 games thanks to them last tournament, fly over screens flame something valuable then charge annoying shooting unit in backfield, fall back shoot again and make opponent think twice b4 charge again, you cant do that with a PBC without a tree. That doens't mean PCB arent strong just they are countered easier than drones ,they are anyway a good choice in Dg armies.

Could we say: PBC would be more awesome in a Nurgle-themed list, while FBD is less Nurgle dependent?

A DP with relic 2+armor, and 3 FBDs, could make a decent Outrider detachement. Insert it into a random Chaos list, it would work, without being short-board of a bucket.

A Poxbringer and 3 PBCs, insert them into...I am not sure.

 tokugawa wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
in actual meta i will always take a drone instead a pbc, 10 guardsmen lock in combat a Pbc and that's annoying, i play tournaments regularly and found drones absolutely strong, the fly keyword is underestimated most of times., i won at least 2 games thanks to them last tournament, fly over screens flame something valuable then charge annoying shooting unit in backfield, fall back shoot again and make opponent think twice b4 charge again, you cant do that with a PBC without a tree. That doens't mean PCB arent strong just they are countered easier than drones ,they are anyway a good choice in Dg armies.

Could we say: PBC would be more awesome in a Nurgle-themed list, while FBD is less Nurgle dependent?

A DP with relic 2+armor, and 3 FBDs, could make a decent Outrider detachement. Insert it into a random Chaos list, it would work, without being short-board of a bucket.

A Poxbringer and 3 PBCs, insert them into...I am not sure.

I run 3 PBC's with Poxbringer all the time, I love them.

Also realize Black Mage plays ETC (modified book) format, which is definitely different from ITC format. Staying power means a lot in ITC. I, personally, have has zero success with Drones over PBC's, but I also run a Tree for many reasons (it looks epic on the table, offers a slew of benefits if your nurgle demon heavy like I am, etc.)

I do see why people would pick Drones, but overall I feel with IK out they will diminish even more in popularity. Just my opinion, though.

 tokugawa wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
in actual meta i will always take a drone instead a pbc, 10 guardsmen lock in combat a Pbc and that's annoying, i play tournaments regularly and found drones absolutely strong, the fly keyword is underestimated most of times., i won at least 2 games thanks to them last tournament, fly over screens flame something valuable then charge annoying shooting unit in backfield, fall back shoot again and make opponent think twice b4 charge again, you cant do that with a PBC without a tree. That doens't mean PCB arent strong just they are countered easier than drones ,they are anyway a good choice in Dg armies.

Could we say: PBC would be more awesome in a Nurgle-themed list, while FBD is less Nurgle dependent?

A DP with relic 2+armor, and 3 FBDs, could make a decent Outrider detachement. Insert it into a random Chaos list, it would work, without being short-board of a bucket.

A Poxbringer and 3 PBCs, insert them into...I am not sure.

I use this detachment all of the time. If I'm doing pure DG or even just CSM with DG allies, this is the DG allies detachment. It's so hard for most armies to handle and it allows the rest of the army to position. In some cases the drones roll hot on saves and DR and the detachment basically wins the game on its own by causing such a huge and fast disruption. There's all sorts of neat tricks with them too, like making the Prince the warlord, giving him arch contaminator, giving him Miasma and cast it on the lead drone. The triple drone screen is hard enough already but now they are harder to kill and you are rerolling all wounds. I love it maggle!!!

 Brymm wrote:

 tokugawa wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
in actual meta i will always take a drone instead a pbc, 10 guardsmen lock in combat a Pbc and that's annoying, i play tournaments regularly and found drones absolutely strong, the fly keyword is underestimated most of times., i won at least 2 games thanks to them last tournament, fly over screens flame something valuable then charge annoying shooting unit in backfield, fall back shoot again and make opponent think twice b4 charge again, you cant do that with a PBC without a tree. That doens't mean PCB arent strong just they are countered easier than drones ,they are anyway a good choice in Dg armies.

Could we say: PBC would be more awesome in a Nurgle-themed list, while FBD is less Nurgle dependent?

A DP with relic 2+armor, and 3 FBDs, could make a decent Outrider detachement. Insert it into a random Chaos list, it would work, without being short-board of a bucket.

A Poxbringer and 3 PBCs, insert them into...I am not sure.

I use this detachment all of the time. If I'm doing pure DG or even just CSM with DG allies, this is the DG allies detachment. It's so hard for most armies to handle and it allows the rest of the army to position. In some cases the drones roll hot on saves and DR and the detachment basically wins the game on its own by causing such a huge and fast disruption. There's all sorts of neat tricks with them too, like making the Prince the warlord, giving him arch contaminator, giving him Miasma and cast it on the lead drone. The triple drone screen is hard enough already but now they are harder to kill and you are rerolling all wounds. I love it maggle!!!

I've been trying something heretical at 1500 points and running a similar formation with a trilobe of blight haulers and two daemon princes (currently one from a daemon detachment for locus of virulence and virulent blessing, and one Death Guard for blades of putrescence, revolting regeneration and the supparating plate, although I've used warptime/prescience in the past). Being able to drop Miasma (via a poxbringer) on the trilobe and then being able to stack virulent blessing and blades on the haulers turns them into close combat monsters (3+ to wound T8, 4s do 2 wounds and 5-6s do 3 wounds plus a mortal) . Last game they popped a gorkanaut (16 wounds from the haulers), 2 of the grot kans and personally killed 50+ ork boys (20ish by the haulers over 4 fight phases, 30ish by the plate prince, 17 of those were plate mortals).

Being able to stack buffs is really what I like about the haulers compared to PBCs and Drones. At 2000 points I may try 3 haulers, 2 PBCs and a drone.

That's awesome! I didn't think of that in particular that single castings are affecting all three of them. That's great! It makes them function a lot like a single model... With 24W, a degrading profile (every 8 wounds, losing weapons), a large variable foot print, firing at bs 3, 3 multi melta shots, 3 missile shots, 3d3 St6 d1 plague shots, 9 close combat attacks at WS 3 at str6 - 2 d1, movement 10, giving infantry within 7 a cover save, no penalty for moving and shooting heavy, 3+/5+ with disgustingly resilient, - 1 to hit in close combat, and with T7! And each one can auto explode when dying causing a mortal wound to each unit within 7inches. All for 426 pts. To top it off, a single casting of Miasma of Pestilence or Blade of Putrification affect all of them.

Running them with 3 Bloat Drones is like running with 6 really fast dreadnaught equivalents, which I imagine a good number of armies would have trouble with, especially when screening for Daemon Princes. As a bonus we have incredible objective holders for 60pts a unit or 54pts for Nurglings.

Hmm. Might have to try this with my DG Outriders that make a frequent appearance in my Epi lists. I love my Trilobe and my regular opponent hates it. Hopefully she won’t ragequit

 Brymm wrote:
That's awesome! I didn't think of that in particular that single castings are affecting all three of them. That's great! It makes them function a lot like a single model... With 24W, a degrading profile (every 8 wounds, losing weapons), a large variable foot print, firing at bs 3, 3 multi melta shots, 3 missile shots, 3d3 St6 d1 plague shots, 9 close combat attacks at WS 3 at str6 - 2 d1, movement 10, giving infantry within 7 a cover save, no penalty for moving and shooting heavy, 3+/5+ with disgustingly resilient, - 1 to hit in close combat, and with T7! And each one can auto explode when dying causing a mortal wound to each unit within 7inches. All for 426 pts. To top it off, a single casting of Miasma of Pestilence or Blade of Putrification affect all of them.

Running them with 3 Bloat Drones is like running with 6 really fast dreadnaught equivalents, which I imagine a good number of armies would have trouble with, especially when screening for Daemon Princes. As a bonus we have incredible objective holders for 60pts a unit or 54pts for Nurglings.

The interaction with locus of virulence is really nice too (but not limited to the Haulers), the extra wound on all your weapons when you roll a 6 makes bile spurts much more effective at taking down multiwound targets and gives a really nice boost to the multimelta and missile launcher.

I'd love to hear how it works for other people.

 lindsay40k wrote:
FWIW I think the PBC rushdown is relying on a lot of rules interactions and I wouldn’t rely on it always being a thing. People who bought loads of Warp Talons to drop and Warptime in on the first turn aren’t best pleased, I’ve got three PBC to build and I’m not going to permanently glue the weapons in because who knows how they’ll behave a year or two down the line. Keep your spare parts and be prepared to completely change the way you use your big expensive kits

PBC are pretty easy to magnetize since the only thing you need to chance is the tip of the weapon, everything else is shared between entropy guns and spitters. It also helps that the main body of the gun is a solid piece of plastic, very easy to drill into it.

Same for rothail volley gun and stubber, though I just glued the rothail guns to mine and have them count as stubbers since they look better.

Hey guys, been out of the Death Guard loop for some time. Is there a competitive Death Guard/Nurgle Daemon list that shoots for good rankings? I heard something about 3 Blightspawns and a lot of Plaguebearers and whot not but as stated, I am rather out of the loop atm
cheers

Iago40k wrote:
Hey guys, been out of the Death Guard loop for some time. Is there a competitive Death Guard/Nurgle Daemon list that shoots for good rankings? I heard something about 3 Blightspawns and a lot of Plaguebearers and whot not but as stated, I am rather out of the loop atm
cheers

this one is a good list

 Brymm wrote:
Running them with 3 Bloat Drones is like running with 6 really fast dreadnaught equivalents, which I imagine a good number of armies would have trouble with, especially when screening for Daemon Princes. As a bonus we have incredible objective holders for 60pts a unit or 54pts for Nurglings.

I've got a friend who does exactly this. A Trilobe of Blight Haulers plus 3 Bloated Feet Drones. It is pretty gnarly, especially when they roll hot on their saves. Bring some regular CSM for their own psychic powers (like Prescience to make those Haulers hit on 2's, or 3's if one goes down) and they become a truly deadly threat.

honesty if i must spend 400+ points i would use 3 Pbc not haulers, regardless of any combo you can have with them.

 blackmage wrote:
honesty if i must spend 400+ points i would use 3 Pbc not haulers, regardless of any combo you can have with them.

They're really apples and oranges. Haulers are better at short range blasting and tarpitting close combat while PBCs are more tanky and can provide fire support if they need to. In my meta I'm running into a lot of antigunline tech (-2 to hit eldar etc...) so being able to turn the Haulers into CC monsters was their main selling point.

malus to hit aren't a issue for PBC, their flamers wont care a lot of -2 to hit stuff, them and drones and perfect in anti gunline meta and using them i know how much they tarpit.

 blackmage wrote:
malus to hit aren't a issue for PBC, their flamers wont care a lot of -2 to hit stuff, them and drones and perfect in anti gunline meta and using them i know how much they tarpit.

Again, it's apples and oranges. The flamers and tarpitting are nice, but being able to chew through stuff and being -2 to hit in CC is much more my style in my meta. Both PBCs and Haulers have their place.