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As playing squats, I had some games in 3rd that lasted less then 20 minutes.

Opponent draws virus card and chooses model in middle of table. 90% of my army dies before anybody takes turn. Yup, that was a first round of a tournament.


I also remember my friend at that point in time used to take level 4 inquisitor. Draw 4 inquisitor powers, are any of those 4 Vortex? No, throw 4 back draw other 4. Yes? Well, you have Vortex, don't worry about rest of cards.

Run from middle of imperial guard pack, up against landraider/predator. Cast Vortex... laugh.....

 oni wrote:
I started playing Warhammer 40,000 shortly after 2nd edition hit store shelves.
Games back then were typically played at 2000 points, used 30-40 models total and took 4+ hours to play.
Why did it take 4+ hours to play? Several reasons; two of which were:
1. Movement stats - Everything moved so slow that it took several turns just to position for a shot or get close enough to assault.
2. Stat modifiers - A fair amount of time was chewed up determining what die roll was needed to hit and what die roll was needed to save.

If a 2000 point game was taking more than 4 hours to play, you were doing something wrong. Most of my games were 2-4 hours at most.

And what slowed the game down was simply that stuff tended to die slower due to hit modifiers and vehicles being harder to kill, and close combat taking forever to resolve one model at a time.

P.S. The move stat was one of the biggest reasons 2nd edition Eldar = Auto-win.

Not even close. Eldar were OP because of overpowered wargear, superior psychic powers and units that could attack from behind terrain without giving the enemy the opportunity to hit back. The fact that their troops could move a little faster than most other models was the least of the issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Youn wrote:
As playing squats, I had some games in 3rd that lasted less then 20 minutes.

Opponent draws virus card and chooses model in middle of table. 90% of my army dies before anybody takes turn. Yup, that was a first round of a tournament.

That's exactly why GW errataed out the Virus Outbreak card.

 Red Corsair wrote:

What killed the game was that ridiculous combat system, where a single assassin (I am looking at you eversore) could dance 3" from guy to guy fighting individual combats with each and every model, including things like fumbles and parries. THIS is what bogged the games down. It appears as though it aint returning either.

Yeah, melee coupled with ridiculously open-ended wargear-stacking made things drag on. Who didn't try to stack terminator armour, a power field and a displacer field on their marine captain...

In case anyone was wondering:

Virus Outbreak: A dormant virus becomes active. You may play thei card at anytime. Place the Virus counter anywhere on the table. Any models within 2" of the counter are affected by it as if a Virus grenade had detonated at that spot. Work out the results of the Virus Outbreak immediately and leave the counter in place for the rest of the game. Anything which approaches within 2" of the Virus counter in subsequent movement phases will be attacked by the virus again.


Virus Grenade (50 pt wargear card): Everything not in sealed suit under 2" blast marker that rolls a 3+ dies. If model dies lay model down roll d6" radius. On 4+ any model touched also dies, repeat.

I also remember my friend at that point in time used to take level 4 inquisitor. Draw 4 inquisitor powers, are any of those 4 Vortex? No, throw 4 back draw other 4. Yes? Well, you have Vortex, don't worry about rest of cards.

Then wait for Ultimate Force to cast it...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/07/warhammer-underworlds-focus-angharad-brightshield/

Really liking this femcast design the more I see it. Hopefully she will not be the only one and GW will add more into the mix with future releases.

Could the game be closer than we think? A character preview in April for a game that contains less than ten models seems a bit early for something coming at the end of the year.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't recall 2nd being overly long. You remember stats over time and just rattle them off, ditto modifiers.

Sure, but memorising all that is harder when every unit has unique rules.

Admittedly, current 40k already has major problems with too many rules, but I don't think making all rules unit-specific is really going to help.

I'd be much keener on playing more (and therefore probably buying more) if they just made the codexes actually balanced and well-written with the tools available in the current rules-set. If they can't do that, how do the hope to fix the game by changing everything? The main problem was never the core rules, it was the haphazard way codexes were written with no regard for balance or restraint.

Youn wrote:
As playing squats, I had some games in 3rd that lasted less then 20 minutes.

Opponent draws virus card and chooses model in middle of table. 90% of my army dies before anybody takes turn. Yup, that was a first round of a tournament.


I also remember my friend at that point in time used to take level 4 inquisitor. Draw 4 inquisitor powers, are any of those 4 Vortex? No, throw 4 back draw other 4. Yes? Well, you have Vortex, don't worry about rest of cards.

Run from middle of imperial guard pack, up against landraider/predator. Cast Vortex... laugh.....

Just to clarify, I believe that was 2nd edition and not 3rd. I started in 3rd and those were the horror stories the grognards would tell of the previous edition(s).

Williamsond - Warseer

Just in response to a lot of rage I've seen in other places, To clarify I'm not saying army books won't return in some future shape but that the current batch of codex's will be no longer use-able and will be replaced with free stuff on launch day much like its been done in the past with older editions. Army books will return in good time but in more of the vain that current AoS books are released.

Congratulations to Codex: Genestealer Cults for getting to be the Codex: Sisters of Battle of 7th Edition.

 warboss wrote:

Youn wrote:
As playing squats, I had some games in 3rd that lasted less then 20 minutes.

Opponent draws virus card and chooses model in middle of table. 90% of my army dies before anybody takes turn. Yup, that was a first round of a tournament.


I also remember my friend at that point in time used to take level 4 inquisitor. Draw 4 inquisitor powers, are any of those 4 Vortex? No, throw 4 back draw other 4. Yes? Well, you have Vortex, don't worry about rest of cards.

Run from middle of imperial guard pack, up against landraider/predator. Cast Vortex... laugh.....

Just to clarify, I believe that was 2nd edition and not 3rd. I started in 3rd and those were the horror stories the grognards would tell of the previous edition(s).

Virus Outbreak was indeed 2nd edition, as were Squats.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/07/warhammer-underworlds-focus-angharad-brightshield/

Really liking this femcast design the more I see it. Hopefully she will not be the only one and GW will add more into the mix with future releases.

Could the game be closer than we think? A character preview in April for a game that contains less than ten models seems a bit early for something coming at the end of the year.

I only see a sigmarine with a boob armour. I wouldn't call it nice nor original

That seems more like a 'you' problem than a problem with the mini. Most people here seem to like it.

Calling an opinion on a miniature a problem is absurd to say the least.

Shhh, nothing to be ashamed Streetsamurai.

I have problems with miniature opinions too... I like the Pumbagor.

Warhams-77 wrote:

Williamsond - Warseer

Just in response to a lot of rage I've seen in other places, To clarify I'm not saying army books won't return in some future shape but that the current batch of codex's will be no longer use-able and will be replaced with free stuff on launch day much like its been done in the past with older editions. Army books will return in good time but in more of the vain that current AoS books are released.

This seems like the only sensical possibility. How do you make mass changes to how the game is played - introducing new stats for units and such - without releasing all those rules on release day. Codex's should come back in time as armies get their revisions, in the same way that AoS army books have come up down the road - sylvaneth, orks, stormcast, etc, have all gotten updated army books.

Agreed.

I genuinely look forward to FINALLY having all armies 'up to date', to include Sisters of Battle, I.G., Orks, Dark Eldar and Blood Angels hopefully.

Then, as people play with the revised/updated army lists and submit feedback, as well as play tournament or competitions that GW can monitor (review lists and winners, ferret out overly powerful combinations, etc.), they can then adjust the various army's worst offenders on the power scale to balance things as completely as possible. THEN, release the new and balanced codexes for people to purchase if they wish to do so for fluff and pretty pictures.

They can also release new campaign books with formations and missions/narratives a-la the Gathering Storm books and the Traitor's Hate/Angel's Blade books did.

Just my thoughts on that.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:
I genuinely look forward to FINALLY having all armies 'up to date', to include Sisters of Battle, I.G., Orks, Dark Eldar and Blood Angels hopefully.

Then, as people play with the revised/updated army lists and submit feedback, as well as play tournament or competitions that GW can monitor (review lists and winners, ferret out overly powerful combinations, etc.), they can then adjust the various army's worst offenders on the power scale to balance things as completely as possible. THEN, release the new and balanced codexes for people to purchase if they wish to do so for fluff and pretty pictures.

They could do all of that without changing the core rules. If they aren't willing or able to do it in 7th edition, why do you think they will do it in 8th?

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
I genuinely look forward to FINALLY having all armies 'up to date', to include Sisters of Battle, I.G., Orks, Dark Eldar and Blood Angels hopefully.

Then, as people play with the revised/updated army lists and submit feedback, as well as play tournament or competitions that GW can monitor (review lists and winners, ferret out overly powerful combinations, etc.), they can then adjust the various army's worst offenders on the power scale to balance things as completely as possible. THEN, release the new and balanced codexes for people to purchase if they wish to do so for fluff and pretty pictures.

They could do all of that without changing the core rules. If they aren't willing or able to do it in 7th edition, why do you think they will do it in 8th?

Because that is exactly what they are doing with AoS. If they take one thing from aos to 40k it should be this.

Chikout wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
I genuinely look forward to FINALLY having all armies 'up to date', to include Sisters of Battle, I.G., Orks, Dark Eldar and Blood Angels hopefully.

Then, as people play with the revised/updated army lists and submit feedback, as well as play tournament or competitions that GW can monitor (review lists and winners, ferret out overly powerful combinations, etc.), they can then adjust the various army's worst offenders on the power scale to balance things as completely as possible. THEN, release the new and balanced codexes for people to purchase if they wish to do so for fluff and pretty pictures.

They could do all of that without changing the core rules. If they aren't willing or able to do it in 7th edition, why do you think they will do it in 8th?

Because that is exactly what they are doing with AoS. If they take one thing from aos to 40k it should be this.

Experience says they will do that for the 1st couple of codexs/armies and the say feth it to much work and revert back to type. As for the abbandoning the current codexs again experience says existing armies while get a new set of rules at launch and that is it there dead.

Codex like in AoS
so we see Codex Nu-Marines, Codex Nurgle, Codex Ynnari, Codex Nu-Ork clan, Codex Genestealers, Updated Rulebook 8.5 Codex Nu-Marines 2nd Edi, before any regular old faction get a real Codex update

 Perfect Organism wrote:
They could do all of that without changing the core rules. If they aren't willing or able to do it in 7th edition, why do you think they will do it in 8th?

Past (recent) precedent with AOS specifically. Logically if they're going to be changing the fundamental structure of how the game works & is played, it would make sense that they revamp *everything* to function within the new system.

I think the general consensus is that 40k, specifically 7th edition, is pretty borked and bloated with several editions worth of rules that are overly cumbersome and detract from the game by slowing it down or making it just not very much fun to play in anything resembling a tournament.

To be frank, the game needs a significant shake up rules wise. Redoing the model stats and adjusting rules makes the most sense when done in conjunction with a revamp of the core game rules so the models function smoothly within said core rules.

I personally am ready for 7th to go away and for 8th edition to come in. I want 40k to grow & flourish, and in the current 7th rules I don't think it will, at least not the way it could with removing the bloat & streamlining the more cumbersome elements.

We shall see what we shall see of course.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Sadly that is also balanced with "rules are free, but for points for all armies you have to buy this annually-updated handbook supplement and/or pay for our app". So free is not really free. I hope they go beyond that and just republish all unit cards for free, with all info on them inc. points, and Codexes become fluff/formations only.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That seems more like a 'you' problem than a problem with the mini. Most people here seem to like it.

Most people? Was there a poll I missed?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That seems more like a 'you' problem than a problem with the mini. Most people here seem to like it.

Most people? Was there a poll I missed?

When it came there were faaar more people saying: me likes it than the opposite. And really, the sculpts are pretty good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
Codex like in AoS
so we see Codex Nu-Marines, Codex Nurgle, Codex Ynnari, Codex Nu-Ork clan, Codex Genestealers, Updated Rulebook 8.5 Codex Nu-Marines 2nd Edi, before any regular old faction get a real Codex update

You make it sound like it's worse than 7th ed where marine publications (6 codex and 11-13 supplements if we consider the re-issuing of Black Legion and Crimson slaughter valid) almost if not outright outnumber the releases of ALL other armies (13 to 16 publications IIRC).

 kodos wrote:
Codex like in AoS
so we see Codex Nu-Marines, Codex Nurgle, Codex Ynnari, Codex Nu-Ork clan, Codex Genestealers, Updated Rulebook 8.5 Codex Nu-Marines 2nd Edi, before any regular old faction get a real Codex update

Except all the existing factions will have updated rules and points on release of 8th?? Thats much better than previous editions where the rules were updated but everyone was stuck on old codex until they got an update- which took years.. This way all the factions will start at a similar level. The AoS system looks a lot more dynamic and easier to keep up to date and they look like they are improving it all the time- i think it will be great for 40k.

we got the general update for all factions always for a new edition, this is nothing special or new
it is also nothing new that the general update was outdated the day it get online with the first new codex that followed a new design.

I don't expect that to change
yeah, all factions will get an update, but it will take years until they are playable.


With 8th edition, all factions will be like Sisters of Battle are in 7th.
Yeah they have rules, but miss the important parts of that edition and remember, all factions started with the same level and updated rules at the beginning of 6th.


No, for now I don't see any rumour that say that it will be different that it was before

 silverstu wrote:


Except all the existing factions will have updated rules and points on release of 8th?? Thats much better than previous editions where the rules were updated but everyone was stuck on old codex until they got an update- which took years.. This way all the factions will start at a similar level.

Will they?

That would seem to rely on GW writing all new army lists so that they are balanced. If they've been unable to do that one-at-a-time for the past 20 years, what would lead you to believe they're going to manage it when they're trying to rush out everyone's rules at the same time?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Sadly that is also balanced with "rules are free, but for points for all armies you have to buy this annually-updated handbook supplement and/or pay for our app". So free is not really free. I hope they go beyond that and just republish all unit cards for free, with all info on them inc. points, and Codexes become fluff/formations only.

Free is really free because you can find all the points for AoS for free on scrollbuilder.com which GW has acquired.

 insaniak wrote:

 silverstu wrote:


Except all the existing factions will have updated rules and points on release of 8th?? Thats much better than previous editions where the rules were updated but everyone was stuck on old codex until they got an update- which took years.. This way all the factions will start at a similar level.

Will they?

That would seem to rely on GW writing all new army lists so that they are balanced. If they've been unable to do that one-at-a-time for the past 20 years, what would lead you to believe they're going to manage it when they're trying to rush out everyone's rules at the same time?

Are they rushing though? They might have been working on the new rules since AoS dropped, or longer, and have been doing the new edition rules alongside the current rules; editions are "usually" planned out well in advance. I'd actually be more certain they aren't rushing every army's rules, rather than expecting them to be rushed.