Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Fear mostly affects units that are already WS:Bad, so you go from hitting on 3s... To hitting on 3s. Woo-hoo.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Personally I wasn't extremely happy: my favourite legion is Night Lords, and what did we get? Fear! And if you already have fear? Fear test at -1Ld! Stealth isn't bad but night fighting? The only things in my army shooting can't even benefit from it.

It gave me a reason to pull out my plans for a full NL army again but will I be able to play comp? No. Will it be fun trying to beat top tier armies with a cc army that has no tricks to be able to get into cc and their only bonus doesn't even effect top tier armies? Probably not. The fact that I can't even remmedy any of this with any kind of marks is a bit rubbish.

Then again CSM have been humbled (quite alot) after the 3.5ed high so to be quite honest anything that gives us a taste of the good old days (even if it doesn't really help that much) will go down well in the realms of chaos.

sadly the nightlords have always been "we use a lot of raptors and use fear" there was really only so much that could be done for them with that being one of their big aspects as a legion within the rules.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Fear mostly affects units that are already WS:Bad, so you go from hitting on 3s... To hitting on 3s. Woo-hoo.

Yes but it generally means you are only getting hit on 5's which makes a big difference

Right, let's see.

Against Guardsmen, a single Guardsman averages (1 attack times .5 hits times .33 wounds times .33 armour save) .05 wounds.

With Fear up, it becomes (1 attack times .33 hits times .33 wounds times .33 armour save) .04 wounds.

Big difference, that is.

Traitor Legions had me hyped and still is a big buff from my previous lists that used Crimson Slaughter rules... but nurgley, which never quite sat right with me.

It allowed me to dig from the unused dresser and rethink about models I stopped bringing to the table. Plague Marines, CSM Joes, Terminators, Helbrutes.

So all my unused units are now Tax units. (including all of my Night Lord models amusingly) Which is all fun and fluffy, but I am quickly reminded why they were shelved in the first place. Chaos have very few Star units in the codex, and none are in the Warband...

The Obj Secured is the real seller in the deal. (and solo Spawn aux since I've always spammed Spawn anyway). I play Nurgle so tge Command bonuses are good, but very situational anyways.

Lately Ive been playing my old CAD List with cheap cultist tax, Lords, Heldrakes, Princes, Spawn, and Oblits, and it works better than it did before due to fearless and FNP being handed out.

GodDamUser wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Fear mostly affects units that are already WS:Bad, so you go from hitting on 3s... To hitting on 3s. Woo-hoo.

Yes but it generally means you are only getting hit on 5's which makes a big difference

Are you actually trying to defend Fear?

Are you actually trying to defend Fear?

I have literally seen it work once in all my games.

And oh boy, did it make one hell of a difference. Them WS 2 Tau sure as hell felt the sting of failing a Fear test against a Hive Tyrant! They went from hitting me on 5s to hitting me on 5s!

Sorry, JNA has it spot on.

Fear is worthless. The prevalence of ATSKNF, Fearless or Ld 9-10 Stubborn/Rerolls on the High WS armies (i.e. the ones you WANT to fail fear tests) makes it worthless.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, let's see.

Against Guardsmen, a single Guardsman averages (1 attack times .5 hits times .33 wounds times .33 armour save) .05 wounds.

With Fear up, it becomes (1 attack times .33 hits times .33 wounds times .33 armour save) .04 wounds.

Big difference, that is.

Ok. But when do we ever get into cc with just one guardsman?
Think of the big picture.

My Ork army HATES fear tests. I'm constantly reminding my opponents about fear, and suddenly my overpriced Orks that are merely okay in CC just dipped into their bad shooting levels.

Orks are the one army it actually does well against. They're CC oriented, don't have the best Leadership stat, their Leadership ignoring mechanic isn't very good, and they normally have a decent WS.

But Guardsmen? Oh boy, the 10 Guardsmen went from half a wound to FOUR TENTHS OF A WOUND! Except it's not even that big, because you killed half of them at the I4 step, so the difference is more like a 20th of a wound.

In before Conscripts-they have Priests.

Also works well against Eldar

GodDamUser wrote:
Also works well against Eldar

Unless they have an Avatar providing a 12 inch Fearless bubble. They're also high Ld by default.

And generally like to AVOID close combat, rather than participate in it.

Edit: Hell, my guardsmen math from earlier still works on Eldar. They're normally WS 4 (hitting on 4s) and S 3.

It does make you hit slightly better, so there's that. But they come in smaller quantities, so it's usually not needed.

Fear is right up there with soul blaze for the most useless piece of crap reason to roll dice.

A quick rundown of the factions will show us why fear really, really, really doesn't matter:
- Marines: Immune
- BA: Immune
- DA: Immune
- Fallen: Immune
- Deathwatch: Immune
- GK: Immune
- SW: Immune
- IG: Priests and Commisars are Immune and you're often going to struggle to remove them without barrage weapons. Vehicles are Immune. anyone affected was already WS3 anyway, so benefits fromt he various squads that DO get affected are minimal.
- Tempestus: Not a "real" Codex, but succeptable to fear. Not exactly a combat powerhouse and will struggle to damage anything tougher than a blue horror with punching anyway.
- Sisters: Suceptable, though priests are available, they're not as common as in IG and Celestine's WL trait allows everyone to use her Ld (or at least, it did, not sure about now) meaning anything midfield is probably ld10. Same old story, WS3 str3 means that the only thing you're really scared of in assault is repentia and if you can't kill a handful of T3, I1, no save models with no assault transport then you deserve everything you get and just for lulz, they're fearless anyway.
- Cult Mech: Breachers aren't fearless, everything else is pretty trash at CC, though I guess electropriests aren't terrible (only for their points), but again, they're fearless (technically zealot), so who cares. Also, there's a fearless/stubborn canticle, so, yeah, have fun with that.
- Skitarii: Ruststalkers and Infiltrators aren't fearless. They're pretty trash for their points, but they're geared for combat and aren't fearless. That's 1/12 factions so far.
- Inquisition: Priests give Zealot, Inquisitors are stubborn Ld 10.
- Imperial Knights: Immune
- Assassins: Immune
- CSM: Lords are fearless, cult units are fearless, deathguard and EC are fearless, word bearers test on 3d6 take the lowest and their DA's emit a zealot bubble, IW are stubborn (fearless on battlements) almost everyone with VotLW is now Ld 10, so while technically suceptable, effectively they're about as close to not caring as you're likely to get for a combat army who isn't immune.
- KDK: Fearless daemons, fearless cult units, fearless lords, again, effectively fearless.
- Daemons: Immune
- Orks: W!:G has the big bosspole which effectively makes your entire army immune if you're running green tide, Bully Boyz are fearless, Mad Dok is fearless, Running Ghazzy in his formation lets him Waaaugh every turn for fearless but outside of those, yes, orks have relatively poor Ld and aren't fearless. 2/19
- Eldar: Avatar hands out a bubble, Wraith units are fearless, Warpspiders exarch lets them autopass, all the Phoenix lords are fearless. Of the handfull of combat units, there are a couple that you probably can't just shrug off with anything that causes Fear. Arguably 3/20, but still effective either ranged or immune to fear, but I'm feeling generous, so we'll count it as in.
- Dark Eldar: Ultraboned. 4/21
- Harlies: Also Ultraboned. 5/22
- Necrons: Almost immortal and Ld10 across the board to boot when they're not fearless like Canoptek units or hiding Zahndrek in there.
- Tau: If you're in CC you're already winning hard. Technically suceptable, but really, if you're anything more CC focused than pick horrors, you shouldn't need the help. 6/24
- 'Nids: Synapse.
- GSC: Weirdly Suceptable beyond select formations and the patriarch. 7/26

So, around 75% of the armies in the game are immune or effectively immune and we're left with Skitarii (no-one cares about their CC untis), Ork (trash tier), Eldar (what even are Melee units that aren't WK's?), DE (trash tier), Harlies (trash tier), Tau (yeah, they suck in CC, shame you'll never get there.jpg) and GSC. So out of the remaining races who actually are suceptable to fear, there's really only Orks, DE Harlies and GSC who actually give a crap and 3/4 of them are bottom of the barrel armies anyway who need a new dex. Try again and tell us how fear isn't completely worthless?

 Drasius wrote:

- GSC: Weirdly Suceptable beyond select formations and the patriarch. 7/26

Might want to drop that back down to 6/26.

The Patriarch gives a Fearless bubble ala the Avatar, the Sacred Icon relic turns the Iconward into a 12" reroll bubble for a mostly LD 9 across the board army and the actual scary combat unit that has high WS (Genestealers) is Ld 10.

Yes, fear sucks, but it's not like that's the only command benefit Legions get or special rule formations get. Night Lords also get stealth and night fighting, which are both useful. Plague Colony also has the Pestilential Aura.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yes, fear sucks, but it's not like that's the only command benefit Legions get or special rule formations get. Night Lords also get stealth and night fighting, which are both useful. Plague Colony also has the Pestilential Aura.

I'll be perfectly honest here and state that I don't use the Plague Colony.

Hell, I've stopped using Plague Marines.

Simply put, normal CSM with ccw are cheaper and the Chaos Warband is a far better Core choice. Sure, it's not a Demi-Company but ObSec on units like Chaos Terminators and Havocs and the boon double-rolls combined with the Death Guard legion rules makes it a far better option. Sure, the Colony has that debuff aura going for it...but in a game where 2/3rds of games are determined by objective control things like ObSec T5 Fearless FNP Terminators are star performers.

 Drasius wrote:
word bearers test on 3d6 take the lowest

This would be pretty nice but it is HH only rule
Also Stubborn has nothing to do with Fear so commissars and Iron warriors aren't immune

Sonic Keyboard wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
word bearers test on 3d6 take the lowest

This would be pretty nice but it is HH only rule
Also Stubborn has nothing to do with Fear so commissars and Iron warriors aren't immune

Actually, Stubborn has a lot to do with Fear. It means the unit tests on its unmodified Leadership - so no stacking debuffs on the unit to force them to fail. As Most IW units and Commissars are Ld 10 the odds of them failing are very, very slim indeed. Add to that the fact a Commissar can execute for a reroll....well....yeah.

The unique legion formations are too expensive. In most cases, taking full advantage means spending more than 70% of your points on troops. It does not leave enough room for other units.

The unique Legion formations are very nearly unplayable. Too many weird taxes and too many units that don't support one another. It's the typical CSM problem of being too expensive while also having almost no synergy. With the exception of Death Guard, all of our CSM folks are running CADs. A few of untried to make the Black Legion alpha strike thing work, but there's just too many things in the way so that seems to be abandoned for the time being.

The Legion specific rules ignore the most challenging aspects to each army. TS are still overcosted. Noise Marines still don't have relentless and their awesome guns still have salvo. Khorne Berzerkers still don't have enough punch to justify taking them over normal CSMs. Nurgle Marines are almost as good as Plague Marines for the points (but, admittedly, they have improved.)

- Many of the Legion command benefits are hobbled by a lack of tactics that could maximize their effectiveness. The Black Legion Speartip deepstrike rules are just good enough to get units on the board, but not to control where they land. The World Eaters movement buffs are just good enough to get units close to a first turn assault, but not quite enough to get there. The Kakophoni special rules would be great if only there was a way to shoot without moving. The Word Bearers rules around manifesting on summoning would be awesome if they had more psykers.

This is really the crux of the issues the book faces. While Traitor Legions itself is (IMO) a great book, it is built upon the broken and terrible foundation that is the current CSM codex. Most of the problems w/Traitor Legions actually come from the CSM book itself. For example, if the CSM book is costed appropriately, those Legion Decurions suddenly become more viable (although there are still a few tax units that don't necessarily make sense). I think this supplement will be crazy powerful if they actually fix the codex next edition. I'm talking 3.5 powerful. For now it's a good supplement hampered by a codex that was either written for an earlier edition but released in a different one, or written from a standpoint of %100 incompetence.


Personally, the reasons I like the supplement are that I literally got almost everything I wanted and have been asking for since 4th ed. I can play a fluffy army now that is actually still fairly powerful, I have some awesome new conversion ideas for my Iron Warriors, there are some strong rules interactions, and there's so darn much in that book that it could take years of playing to really see everything. I really think they hit it out of the ballpark.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


I'll be perfectly honest here and state that I don't use the Plague Colony.

Hell, I've stopped using Plague Marines.

This is what I mean about the hype.

When Traitor Legions came out, for a lot of people it meant we could now run fluffy armies that have a chance to win.

The reality is the formations don't actually give us a way to use iconic units for each Legion. Either cult troops like Berzerkers and Plague Marines are being outclassed by normal CSMs, or the cost crowds out any other option you might want to take.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Simply put, normal CSM with ccw are cheaper and the Chaos Warband is a far better Core choice. Sure, it's not a Demi-Company but ObSec on units like Chaos Terminators and Havocs and the boon double-rolls combined with the Death Guard legion rules makes it a far better option. Sure, the Colony has that debuff aura going for it...but in a game where 2/3rds of games are determined by objective control things like ObSec T5 Fearless FNP Terminators are star performers.

I know just as many people reverting to a CAD to get ObSec. Another situation where ObSec outclasses the formation benefits is the Kakophoni. Even with Shred, Noise Marines still can't gain enough of an advantage to make taking the formation worth it.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Sonic Keyboard wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
word bearers test on 3d6 take the lowest

This would be pretty nice but it is HH only rule
Also Stubborn has nothing to do with Fear so commissars and Iron warriors aren't immune

Actually, Stubborn has a lot to do with Fear. It means the unit tests on its unmodified Leadership - so no stacking debuffs on the unit to force them to fail. As Most IW units and Commissars are Ld 10 the odds of them failing are very, very slim indeed. Add to that the fact a Commissar can execute for a reroll....well....yeah.

So I opened the rulebook and in special rules section, Stubborn specifically only affects Morale and Pinning. Fear special rule doesn't contin anything about Stubborn either.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
Also works well against Eldar

Unless they have an Avatar providing a 12 inch Fearless bubble. They're also high Ld by default.

How does an Avatar survive long enough to provide a Fearless bubble?

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
Also works well against Eldar

Unless they have an Avatar providing a 12 inch Fearless bubble. They're also high Ld by default.

How does an Avatar survive long enough to provide a Fearless bubble?

Do you people not know how to position things to ensure they have cover and that LoS is blocked? What tables are you playing on?

Completely Empty tables where you deploy the Avatar the opposite end of the rest of your army?

 techsoldaten wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


I'll be perfectly honest here and state that I don't use the Plague Colony.

Hell, I've stopped using Plague Marines.

This is what I mean about the hype.

When Traitor Legions came out, for a lot of people it meant we could now run fluffy armies that have a chance to win.

The reality is the formations don't actually give us a way to use iconic units for each Legion. Either cult troops like Berzerkers and Plague Marines are being outclassed by normal CSMs, or the cost crowds out any other option you might want to take.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Simply put, normal CSM with ccw are cheaper and the Chaos Warband is a far better Core choice. Sure, it's not a Demi-Company but ObSec on units like Chaos Terminators and Havocs and the boon double-rolls combined with the Death Guard legion rules makes it a far better option. Sure, the Colony has that debuff aura going for it...but in a game where 2/3rds of games are determined by objective control things like ObSec T5 Fearless FNP Terminators are star performers.

I know just as many people reverting to a CAD to get ObSec. Another situation where ObSec outclasses the formation benefits is the Kakophoni. Even with Shred, Noise Marines still can't gain enough of an advantage to make taking the formation worth it.

That's why I said it manages to disappoint as much as it succeeds. The parts that disappoint don't make our armies worse though, while at the same time all legions came out stronger than before while also matching their fluff closer. That's a win.
Even legion CADs for the various legions will look different.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Chaos Marines are a Worf Effect army?

More like one that suffers from Badass Decay.

In second edition, CSMs were the little darlings that could field a Chaos Lord who would eat one tactical squad a round without taking a wound. They could summon enough stuff that the army would double in size as the game went on.

In fourth point five edition, we saw them at their most enjoyable: less overpowered, but filled with fluffy options that made the army less one dimensional than all others.

Then came fifth edition. Berzerker spam seemed to be the only viable playlist, at least for me. They could take on just about anything unless it had too many tanks. Possessed, Thousand Sons, Noise Marines started getting blacklisted. Spawn were considered awful because of the mindless rule.

Then came sixth edition. The Codex promised some kind of renaissance in GW rulesmaking, but we found out CSMs were the only 'balanced' Codex. Every other Codex got stronger while cultists became CSM's only viable troop choice.

Then came seventh edition, new rules for flying creatures, new models for flyers, D weapons, grav, free transports, Eldar shennanigans, etc. CSMs actively compete with Orks and IG for the status of worst Codex.

Traitor's Hate and Traitor Legions bring CSMs in line with 7th edition, but I wonder how much people enjoy the new rules now that they have been out for a while.

I had high expectations for my Black Legion Speartip before I remembered Abaddon's 600 point melee Terminator squad can be destroyed by rolling a one on a deep strike mishap and there's nothing I can do to stop it. While I had a few games where things mostly went right, I realized there's only about a 30% chance of them landing within 6 inches of where they should. Not to mention a couple squads of gretchin can actually outshoot that same 600 point squad.

This is not a complaint, I will definitely keep playing around with my Black Legion list. It's more the realization that there was a lot of hype surrounding the release, and a desire to put the books in their proper place.

I understand this is your opinion but you have missed some very important things.

2ND: chaos was fun, it had a lot of character and a ton of options.

3RD: chaos was the most bland you could imagine, they lost almost every option and were likely the worst they have ever been.

3.5: this book more than made up for the pamphlet chaos dex in 3rd, it oozed character, options, and could produce all kinds of insanity, the best chaos has ever been.

4TH: they ripped the guts out of the chaos codex here, they made it as bland as they could, it was a horrible joke, still not as bland as the 3rd chaos dex, but worse on every level compared to the other books of its day.

5: there was no chaos dex in 5th worth mentioning.

6th: and 4th 2.0 strikes again, GW has not learned from its mistake and continues to make a dog crap army based on bland, outdated and frankly obsolete rules and costs, shocked I know.

and so we continue on with the total crap that is the 4th 2.0 chaos dex.

"Character" apparently == intricate chrome that needlessly complicates gameplay. The only good Chaos Codices were the 3E and 4E ones. 3.5 was fething stupid, with it's childish imagination-destroying special rules, and the current books are much the same. No imagination. Pure gak.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
"Character" apparently == intricate chrome that needlessly complicates gameplay. The only good Chaos Codices were the 3E and 4E ones. 3.5 was fething stupid, with it's childish imagination-destroying special rules, and the current books are much the same. No imagination. Pure gak.

Only responding to say it's not worth responding to.

3.5 Had options the same way that many codexes of its day had options. Chapter Traits for Space Marines, Regimental Doctrines for Imperial Guard, Mutations for Tyranids, Auxiliary armies such as Orks: Speed Freaks and Kroot Mercenaries. 4th Ed was the last edition of "rules without models". If you feel your imagination is being destroyed by more options, I think you're doing it wrong.

ERJAK wrote:
Go read imperial agents, when you're done vomiting and can get back to the safety of traitor legions you'll get just how awesome that book actually is.

Ha.

Yeah seriously. Sometimes you gotta be glad for what you get... otherwise you might essentially get nothing.

3.5 had false options which is why I only saw 4 Heavy Iron Warriors on the tabletop. Ohh... "character". Pure crap.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
"Character" apparently == intricate chrome that needlessly complicates gameplay. The only good Chaos Codices were the 3E and 4E ones. 3.5 was fething stupid, with it's childish imagination-destroying special rules, and the current books are much the same. No imagination. Pure gak.

3.5 had false options which is why I only saw 4 Heavy Iron Warriors on the tabletop. Ohh... "character". Pure crap.

Cute.

3.5 Had options the same way that many codexes of its day had options. Chapter Traits for Space Marines, Regimental Doctrines for Imperial Guard, Mutations for Tyranids, Auxiliary armies such as Orks: Speed Freaks and Kroot Mercenaries. 4th Ed was the last edition of "rules without models". If you feel your imagination is being destroyed by more options, I think you're doing it wrong.

Man the Tyranid Mutations were cool back in the day too.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Man the Tyranid Mutations were cool back in the day too.

Winged Hormagaunts were so OP

12" move 12" charge =D