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interesting....

 SolarCross wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
This is terrifying and a kick in the balls to anyone that just bought a codex that recently came out to fix their army. *cough* Traitor Legions *cough*

I was hoping that 8th when it came would just be 7th with a few gentle tweaks such that existing codices would remain usable. It is looking like a forlorn hope now.

I may just give up on 40k and do something else.

Rebooting all the codexs is what was required to fix 40k. The game is so unbalanced because armies are redone over the course of several years that's impossible to keep armies inline with each other as game design philosophies change in between updates. Redoing all the armies at once put them all on the same page.

 koooaei wrote:
And i want to see an aos overhaul. It's a good one.

AoS DESTROYED Warhammer for good, I don't want it anywhere near 40K. There is literally not ONE GOOD THING about AoS. Not ONE! It's garbage, the new rules, and most of the new factions and models are garbage except for a few outliers. It's why I sold my Skaven and High Elves. And even then it took another book to come out to even attempt a patch on the hilarious awful rules and balance.

But yeah, might as well of not even bought any of the codexs or supplements, cause none of it's going to be usable if this can drops.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
This is terrifying and a kick in the balls to anyone that just bought a codex that recently came out to fix their army. *cough* Traitor Legions *cough*

I was hoping that 8th when it came would just be 7th with a few gentle tweaks such that existing codices would remain usable. It is looking like a forlorn hope now.

I may just give up on 40k and do something else.

Rebooting all the codexs is what was required to fix 40k. The game is so unbalanced because armies are redone over the course of several years that's impossible to keep armies inline with each other as game design philosophies change in between updates. Redoing all the armies at once put them all on the same page.

Balance can be fixed by updating old codices to be inline with new ones. Sometimes just a supplement will do the job. 40k 7th has had a lot of playtesting (by the players) and there is a good amount of consensus as to what needs fixing, and this could be done without burning all that has come before. With a whole new ruleset all that playtesting gets burned too and you have to start from scratch, everything will have potential for imbalance and exploits but we will have to go through the whole laborious process of playing to find them out again.

40k is pretty light on tactical depth but AoS doesn't appear to have any. I have an issue with that too.

 SolarCross wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
This is terrifying and a kick in the balls to anyone that just bought a codex that recently came out to fix their army. *cough* Traitor Legions *cough*

I was hoping that 8th when it came would just be 7th with a few gentle tweaks such that existing codices would remain usable. It is looking like a forlorn hope now.

I may just give up on 40k and do something else.

Rebooting all the codexs is what was required to fix 40k. The game is so unbalanced because armies are redone over the course of several years that's impossible to keep armies inline with each other as game design philosophies change in between updates. Redoing all the armies at once put them all on the same page.

Balance can be fixed by updating old codices to be inline with new ones. Sometimes just a supplement will do the job. 40k 7th has had a lot of playtesting (by the players) and there is a good amount of consensus as to what needs fixing, and this could be done without burning all that has come before. With a whole new ruleset all that playtesting gets burned too and you have to start from scratch, everything will have potential for imbalance and exploits but we will have to go through the whole laborious process of playing to find them out again.

40k is pretty light on tactical depth but AoS doesn't appear to have any. I have an issue with that too.

It would still mean the game would remain in a state of unbalance for several years until they go through updating all of the codexes in the game

40K has become more and more bloated as a ruleset. It started out inelegant, unbalanced, and clunky with 1st, and has never had a proper reboot -- just more and more inelegant, unbalanced, and clunky rules added each time. I'm really looking forward to a simplification because 7th is basically broken. There are not really any options any more, despite the need to spend hundreds of pounds on new books every year just to stay competitive. As would be expected from what we know of game theory and competitive game design, giving a plethora of options but not playtesting them for balance, just means that a few dominant strategies emerge. Rather than getting to choose your army, and then getting to make an interesting and synergetic list with it, you get to choose between maybe 10 different builds in total, very few of them particularly subtle.

Commissar Benny wrote:
Morale

"Its no longer all or nothing, and it affects everyone. We’re thinking of replacing break tests with a simple mechanic. Roll a D6, add that to the number of models your unit has lost this turn, subtract your Leadership and take that many additional casualties."

So lets say I have a squad of 50 conscripts with a Commissar, lose 25 of them to enemy shooting and make a leadership test. Roll a 1 + 25 (-9 from Commissar), so I take an additional 17 casualties? hahaha NO. Lets hope its a little more complicated than that, otherwise Orks/Nids/Guard can just sit out 8th edition.

I am happy that I'd no longer lose an entire massive squad when 1 dude that they failed to hurt sweeping advances the entire squad after killing one of my guys and them bolting.

Well, if they bring the battlescrolls free like in AoS it would be good for people who want to start playing or people who dont want to look at the codex every 2 minutes in game (I'm making some myself from some friends and it could be cool to see it in 40k from GW)

Personally I have 0 problems with "AoSitation", just remmember that "getting AoSed" could mean "just put some AoS ideas" no "its just AoS with space marines". What I mean is that (from my point of view after some AoS games) it could be a good thing, deleting bloat on the rules is good for new and old players and it speeds the game.

Also "This topic comes up almost as often as Sisters of Battle… so we’re going to bring them back."

STARTER BOX WITH PLASTIC SISTERS CONFIRMED

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

AoS DESTROYED Warhammer for good.

If something, there are actually games of aos happening in our lgs now. I'd say it's 50/50 with 9-th age but it's way more alive and well than it used to be before the reboot.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
And i want to see an aos overhaul. It's a good one.

AoS DESTROYED Warhammer for good, I don't want it anywhere near 40K. There is literally not ONE GOOD THING about AoS. Not ONE! It's garbage, the new rules, and most of the new factions and models are garbage except for a few outliers. It's why I sold my Skaven and High Elves. And even then it took another book to come out to even attempt a patch on the hilarious awful rules and balance.

But yeah, might as well of not even bought any of the codexs or supplements, cause none of it's going to be usable if this can drops.

WHFB had dead fors years for AoS came out. Ok AoS wasn't a good game when they initially released it but you can't kill something that as already dead.

Jbz` wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
Morale

"Its no longer all or nothing, and it affects everyone. We’re thinking of replacing break tests with a simple mechanic. Roll a D6, add that to the number of models your unit has lost this turn, subtract your Leadership and take that many additional casualties."

So lets say I have a squad of 50 conscripts with a Commissar, lose 25 of them to enemy shooting and make a leadership test. Roll a 1 + 25 (-9 from Commissar), so I take an additional 17 casualties? hahaha NO. Lets hope its a little more complicated than that, otherwise Orks/Nids/Guard can just sit out 8th edition.

I am happy that I'd no longer lose an entire massive squad when 1 dude that they failed to hurt sweeping advances the entire squad after killing one of my guys and them bolting.

That is an improvement I agree, but the way the new morale is suggested is concerning to say the least. At a glance, it appears to be designed with smaller more elite forces in mind (space marines) and ignores how absolutely devastating this would be to horde armies. Again, perhaps there is more to it than what we are seeing here but if this is what goes live it will basically shut out Orks, Nids & Guard for another edition "again".

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
And i want to see an aos overhaul. It's a good one.

AoS DESTROYED Warhammer for good, I don't want it anywhere near 40K. There is literally not ONE GOOD THING about AoS. Not ONE! It's garbage, the new rules, and most of the new factions and models are garbage except for a few outliers. It's why I sold my Skaven and High Elves. And even then it took another book to come out to even attempt a patch on the hilarious awful rules and balance.

But yeah, might as well of not even bought any of the codexs or supplements, cause none of it's going to be usable if this can drops.

I couldn't disagree more. Before AoS we were 2 friends playing, after AoS we are 7. It actually brought 5 of my friends into the world of miniature games and we are having a ton of fun.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:


AoS DESTROYED Warhammer for good, I don't want it anywhere near 40K. There is literally not ONE GOOD THING about AoS. Not ONE! It's garbage, the new rules, and most of the new factions and models are garbage except for a few outliers. It's why I sold my Skaven and High Elves. And even then it took another book to come out to even attempt a patch on the hilarious awful rules and balance.

But yeah, might as well of not even bought any of the codexs or supplements, cause none of it's going to be usable if this can drops.

WAAAAAAH, stop liking the things I don't like, waaaaaah!

AOS is a good game with some flaws, it has great support now and most people whom were saying it was bad came back on that after the GHB was dropped.

It's more fun than that last itteration of Fantasy was anyway.

I suspect they'll borrow the rules that have proven popular etc while also learning for their mistakes. don't expect silly "he with the biggest beard wins the roll off" rules

Remember that guy who melted down his army to protest AoS?

I hope we see more amazing freakouts. People have strong feelings on this subject!

If WFB was "dead" then where was all the fury coming from then when AoS dropped? Who is it that is playing 9th age? Given all the rage that was provoked by a "dead" game system getting switched for a snakes 'n' ladders small child friendly version I wonder what rage will be produced by 40k getting AoSsed? Or perhaps 40k is "dead" too?

Anyway I expect given 40k has a larger community than WFB did we can expect an even larger backlash. Perhaps 40k will get its own version of 9th age.

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect they'll borrow the rules that have proven popular etc while also learning for their mistakes. don't expect silly "he with the biggest beard wins the roll off" rules

But I bought the chalice and everything ;_;

In all seriousness, you guys noticed how this WAS IN THE SAME POST as the troll video? Might just be an elaborate joke on Warhammer TV and Community's part. EVERYTHING is from Age of Sigmar, EVERYTHING.

3 ways to play - self explanatory. From AoS.

Army Selection - Ripped directly from AoS

Movement - Ripped directly from AoS

Shooting - Rend from AoS

Combat Phase - Same system AoS

Morale - Battleshock system from AoS

Also examine the wording on some of the rule changes:

"Not only would that be more fun, but it’ll mean you will only need to learn the rules for your models." - That does not sound right, if they had said it was for streamlining or matching lore I would believe it, but this just sounds like the writer put down the first thing that came to mind.

"Armour save modifiers. This topic comes up almost as often as Sisters of Battle… so we’re going to bring them back. Every weapon will have its place in your army and better represent how you imagine them working in your head." - HA. Yeah, no that's equally stupid. Terrible made up justification that does not sound real at all. Also they would have to reprint EVERY SINGLE CODEX AND SUPPLEMENT to incorporate this new system.

"Charging units should fight first. It’s just more thematic." - Yes let's make it so that necron warriors can hit before Eldar, sounds "thematic". Seriously.....why would they do this the justification of "It will reward tactically outmaneuvering your opponent" is it works in AoS I don't see it working in 40k at all. It REALLY s with the lore IMO and goes against their own justification.

"Roll a D6, add that to the number of models your unit has lost this turn, subtract your Leadership and take that many additional casualties." - Say goodbye to every single horde army, this would BREAK every single army other than MEQs. Good Plan GW, alienate even more players.


Just to clarify, I like AoS. But these new rules "changes" do not sound in anyway real IMO.

 SolarCross wrote:
If WFB was "dead" then where was all the fury coming from then when AoS dropped?

People didn't know what to expect and than got something they couldn't wrap their heads around until the ghb arrived. Most people also tend to stick to crappy things they're used to rather than risking changing stuff for the better. At least until someone else shows it's not that frightening.

Don't close yourself with the "AOS IS gak OR ISNT" type of discussion guys.

It's better to think how could 40 benefice from some rules/ideas of AoS.

The "Aos is gak, it killed fantasy" train is gone, the ones who wanted to play WHF are playing other games/set of rules/last edition and the ones who liked AoS are playing AoS, there is no need to launch gak between them.

AoS was good from the sales point of view, Fantasy was too expensive to start and the ones who already have an army didn’t buy that much. I understand the pain for the Old World bomb guys, i really do, but gaking about it years later when it could be an opportunity for 40k to become better is crazy.

Also, a lot of complains from AoS came from the fluff, the destruction of the Old World but in 40k the world isn’t getting destroyed (sorry Cadia btw) if anything the fluff is finally advancing and not in a bad way (from my point of view).

Just stop with the AoS shitstorm, focus on 40k and how amazing (or horrible) could it be.

 The Deathless Host wrote:
Also they would have to reprint EVERY SINGLE CODEX AND SUPPLEMENT to incorporate this new system.

Don't they do that after every new edition? If they are talking about 8th edition changes this could be no problem.

BrianDavion wrote:
Don't they do that after every new edition? If they are talking about 8th edition changes this could be no problem

No they don't actually, if they were to introduce this new system, it would mean having to redo EVERY codex right away (as apposed to doing it over the course of the edition as they normally do), and unless they are PDFing rules like AoS. there will be a large gap where some armies are unusable with the new rules.

I'd support making my Dark Eldar actually fast and killy though...Not just middling and somewhat killy.

 The Deathless Host wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Don't they do that after every new edition? If they are talking about 8th edition changes this could be no problem

No they don't actually, if they were to introduce this new system, it would mean having to redo EVERY codex right away (as apposed to doing it over the course of the edition as they normally do), and unless they are PDFing rules like AoS. there will be a large gap where some armies are unusable with the new rules.

I'd support making my Dark Eldar actually fast and killy though...Not just middling and somewhat killy.

If they bring the General's Handbook system and battlescrolls from AoS it could be very easy to port it to the new system and any mini could have rules with the new system while their new codex doesn't arrive (I mean codex like the battletomes from AoS)

 The Deathless Host wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Don't they do that after every new edition? If they are talking about 8th edition changes this could be no problem

No they don't actually, if they were to introduce this new system, it would mean having to redo EVERY codex right away (as apposed to doing it over the course of the edition as they normally do)

Don't proposed rule dudes do it in a couple days in their free time?

Guard are still on 6th edition codex, some will say it is underpowered compared to newer codices but the rules & stats all still work.

 koooaei wrote:

 The Deathless Host wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Don't they do that after every new edition? If they are talking about 8th edition changes this could be no problem

No they don't actually, if they were to introduce this new system, it would mean having to redo EVERY codex right away (as apposed to doing it over the course of the edition as they normally do)

Don't proposed rule dudes do it in a couple days in their free time?

Yes, but they don't work for GW. It looks REALLY bad if GW was to just leave half their product range unusable. Just shows Massive incompten- oh wait this sounds like GW actually.

As long as I don't have yet another army invalidated by changes I don't really mind and welcome the AoS rules since it's been much more fun to play than 40k.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Apparently there is a post to spikey bits that 40k is getting the following

Generals handbook
Movement stat back
Charging units swing first no matter what (As if thunderwolves with thunder hammers was not BS enough)
Armor save modifiers
Mortal wounds

Discuss?

1. Multiple ways to play just formalizes how things are already. More regular updates to game balance and points is a good thing.

2. Movement stat back - it should never have gone away in the first place! This is a better rule and can replace some of the randomness in the game around things like running. It also allows for more tactical decision-making and better representation of things like Terminators and Hormagaunts.

3. Meh. Overwatch will still keep the game shooting-focused. Assault armies needed some help. The main beneficiary is Orks who like to charge and have gak Initiative. I'm fine with giving Orks a boost.

4. Better than the all or nothing AP and in a MEQ world means that there will now be more viable weapons choices for each squad.

5. This one I'm less happy about, but we'll see what the execution is like.

 The Deathless Host wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Don't they do that after every new edition? If they are talking about 8th edition changes this could be no problem

No they don't actually, if they were to introduce this new system, it would mean having to redo EVERY codex right away (as apposed to doing it over the course of the edition as they normally do), and unless they are PDFing rules like AoS. there will be a large gap where some armies are unusable with the new rules.

I'd support making my Dark Eldar actually fast and killy though...Not just middling and somewhat killy.

Not really.
For M stat they would just need to re-do the Quick reference page for each army, 1/ 2 pages per army

Now that I think about it Armour modifiers (and any other weapon changes) could be done there too.

Morale things may need a bit of alterations, but the armies that actually suffer from morale all need a new codex as is.

If AoSed means a couple of armies gone immediately, the entire catalogue almost switched off by new models and progressively definitely abandoned, games with fewer models but some huge and extremely expensive ones like in AoS then no, I would hate that.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

TheDinosaur wrote:
This isnt a problem.

That remains to be seen.

Indeed


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Instead of the run and shoot rules they could simply have Eldar move 9".

I think you mean 12".

Besides, being able to move after you shoot is immensely more powerful than being able to just move more.

Either way, that would be a solid nerf to units that don't need any (eldar infantry in general, barring warp spiders, which wouldn't care much).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SolarCross wrote:
If WFB was "dead" then where was all the fury coming from then when AoS dropped? Who is it that is playing 9th age? Given all the rage that was provoked by a "dead" game system getting switched for a snakes 'n' ladders small child friendly version I wonder what rage will be produced by 40k getting AoSsed? Or perhaps 40k is "dead" too?

Anyway I expect given 40k has a larger community than WFB did we can expect an even larger backlash. Perhaps 40k will get its own version of 9th age.

If you take the time to observe people on dakka, you will see that the most vocal most furious people don't even play the friggin game at all.

That's where battle was at the time, many people with armies, waiting on the sidelines, maybe playing one game every six months, furiously raging on forums at the destruction of a game they didn't really care for anymore.

 Crazyterran wrote:
I'm willing to bet there will be some modifier that unwieldy weapons will swing last.

Or Thunderhammers and such will be nerfed somehow.

An option more in line with Sigmar might be to say that 1 model in every 5 (for example) can take a Thunderhammer. And then the Thunderhammer has its own to hit/to wound/rend/damage stat line.

So you gain the ability to do a hefty strike at initiative but lose the ability to spam weapons that are OP.

This is not gospel how 40k will work of course. This is just speculation based on reading AOS datasheets