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Where are the rules permitting you to perform that process?
There are none.

Where is the rule that says when you remove terminator armor you remain able to have a terminator weapons item?

You are assuming these things with no tenet 1 or tenet 2 support.

Ghorgul wrote:
Earlier on this same page there is a quote where I show this to lead into having illegal Force Roster. You are spamming.

I pointed out that a Terminator Captain with a bike, chainfist, and Cataphractii armour is an entirely legal configuration.

The Force Roster only cares that you are presenting a legal configuration.

Remember the permission to have Terminator Weapons is in the Options for the Terminator Captain. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:
Where are the rules permitting you to perform that process?
There are none.

Where is the rule that says when you remove terminator armor you remain able to have a terminator weapons item?

You are assuming these things with no tenet 1 or tenet 2 support.

The rules are applied in a straightforward fashion. No assumptions are being made by me.


Where exactly do you see something illegal going on?

It is not a legal configuration. You are not allowed to have a powerfist without also wearing terminator armor.

You are assuming buying in a sequence is a rule, there is no rule that permits you to do that.

You keep quoting this garbage.

"may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

Luckily you stopped calling it a rule because you realized I was correct and it is not a rule. However lets go back to page 1 and remind you of a critical detail you seem to be forgetting. The AoD Datasheet tells us... SEE CODEX SPACE MARINES. FULL STOP.

We are now talking about wargear while following the rules of Codex: Space Marines.

Codex: Space Marines does not permit you to have a powerfist from Terminator Weapons without wearing Terminator armor.

It doesn't forget when you try to switch armor. The rule is there, applied to the powerfist.

Ceann wrote:
It is not a legal configuration. You are not allowed to have a powerfist without also wearing terminator armor.

You have an entirely faulty recollection of the rules here. Quote the rule that says you are not allowed to have a powerfist without also wearing terminator armour.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then how come a regular captain is different? At no point when making a terminator armored captain on a bike do you violate the rules.

A faulty recollection...

Yes, yes I feel it now, I am feeling a bit foggy.
I need two peices of information from you. Please help me Col.

Can you remind me about these please.
What page in the AoD is this war gear on?

What page states you can buy things in sequence?

col_impact wrote:
Remember the permission to have Terminator Weapons is in the Options for the Terminator Captain. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

"Permission to have Terminator Weapons" Incorrect. Rules do not state this, you quoted the appropriate rule there yourself. You have permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons. Items contained within the Terminator Weapons however have a ruling stating that only a model in terminator armour can choose to replace their Storm bolter or power sword with a item from Terminator Weapons list. Therefore a Terminator Captain with Cataprachtii Terminator Armour cannot have a legal Force Roster with items picked from Terminator Weapons. As has been stated many times before, but you choose to override/ignore the rule "a model in terminator armour may replace..." without producing a rule which specifically overrides the restriction on items in Terminator Weapons list. Produce the rule quote. Line on Army List Entry The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list is not a rule that can override restrictions in Terminator Weapons list.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then how come a regular captain is different? At no point when making a terminator armored captain on a bike do you violate the rules.

- Space Marine bike 1 …20 pts
1 May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour.


VS.


Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]"


You are not ending up with a legal configuration like I am.

A faulty recollection...

Yes, yes I feel it now, I am feeling a bit foggy.
I need two peices of information from you. Please help me Col.

Can you remind me about these please.
What page in the AoD is this war gear on?

What page states you can buy things in sequence?

All this has been explained to you many times before but you keep twisting and interpreting the rules to support your claim without providing actual rule quotes to support your interpretations.

Ghorgul wrote:
All this has been explained to you many times before but you keep twisting and interpreting the rules to support your claim without providing actual rule quotes to support your interpretations.

Dont distract him friend, he has a short attention span.

A faulty recollection...

Yes, yes I feel it now, I am feeling a bit foggy.
I need two peices of information from you. Please help me Col.

Can you remind me about these please.
What page in the AoD is this war gear on?

What page states you can buy things in sequence?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You are making assertions here Col and i am asking for your FORUM required tenets.

col_impact wrote:
You are not ending up with a legal configuration like I am.

For the record, in you case missed it, in your examples you are not ending up with legal Force Roster entry either.

Myyyyy Col Impact!
Ohhhh dear Col Impact!

Upon what pages,
From all the ages?

Can you show us please,
Were on our knees?

What page in the AoD is this war gear on?

What page states you can buy things in sequence?

We need your tenet ONE.
And your tenet TWO.
Before we can be through.

Ghorgul wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You are not ending up with a legal configuration like I am.

For the record, in you case missed it, in your examples you are not ending up with legal Force Roster entry either.

You are going to have to demonstrate what you mean here. We can't just take your word for it.

This process winds up with a legal configuration . . .



The end result (which is what the Force Roster cares about) is 100% legal. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list. He has permission to be equipped with a chainfist.

What page in the AoD is this war gear on?

What page states you can buy things in sequence?

We need your tenet ONE.
And your tenet TWO.
Before we can be through.

Your list is like a dressing room, they don't see you go in there with terminator armor, put on a glove, take off the armor, put on some other armor and come out.

All they see is that you come out and you are dressed wrong.

Ceann,

Enough with your silly disruption.

What exactly do you think is illegal here?

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Terminator armour is terminator armour! You can't ride bikes or use jetpacks!!!

There are many different Patterns of terminator armour. These are: Indomitus, Tartos, Cataphractii, Gorgon, Saturnine, Arkonak, Aegis and Aquilon.

The typical armour in GW stores is Indomitus pattern....oh no...theres no rule that says i can't give a Volcano cannon to an Indomitus terminator therefore i can do it...yeh... lets take the piss....lets put our wannabe lawyer hat on and try and find some magical loop hole that lets me act like a 'redacted' when i play you...yeh...that means i can have fun...and kick your arse - you can go cry...because i am giant 'redacted'. And its fun for me cause i have no friends and dont play well with others....yehhh.

 firstsilentprophet wrote:
Terminator armour is terminator armour! You can't ride bikes or use jetpacks!!!

There are many different Patterns of terminator armour. These are: Indomitus, Tartos, Cataphractii, Gorgon, Saturnine, Arkonak, Aegis and Aquilon.

The typical armour in GW stores is Indomitus pattern....oh no...theres no rule that says i can't give a Volcano cannon to an Indomitus terminator therefore i can do it...yeh... lets take the piss....lets put our wannabe lawyer hat on and try and find some magical loop hole that lets me act like a 'redacted' when i play you...yeh...that means i can have fun...and kick your arse - you can go cry...because i am giant 'redacted'. And its fun for me cause i have no friends and dont play well with others....yehhh.

I guess you missed out on what the core problem is. Cataphractii armour isn't considered to be fully terminator armour. It only counts as terminator armour for some things.

col_impact wrote:

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Where exactly do you see something illegal going on?

Lol at anyone who would paly against you....


I would point out in point 4 you magically have a power fist now,

But I would also say your ability to retain a chainfist is required on keeping Terminator Armour, so removing the armour removes the option for the fist

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Where exactly do you see something illegal going on?

Lol at anyone who would paly against you....


I would point out in point 4 you magically have a power fist now,

But I would also say your ability to retain a chainfist is required on keeping Terminator Armour, so removing the armour removes the option for the fist

The Terminator Captain always has the permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list, irrespective of whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

Remember the permission to have Terminator Weapons is in the Options for the Terminator Captain. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

So swapping the armour would not remove the chainfist.

col_impact wrote:

The Terminator Captain always has the permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list, irrespective of whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

Remember the permission to have Terminator Weapons is in the Options for the Terminator Captain. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

So swapping the armour would not remove the chainfist.

So are you paying Full Price for both armours?
Then I would think its kewl...

but if you are not then no it isn't.

Because you are buying the entire thing in one hit, this isn't a progressive thing.. if it was a campaign and you took termi armour one game then the next swapped it out, then fair play

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:

The Terminator Captain always has the permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list, irrespective of whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

Remember the permission to have Terminator Weapons is in the Options for the Terminator Captain. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

So swapping the armour would not remove the chainfist.

So are you paying Full Price for both armours?
Then I would think its kewl...

but if you are not then no it isn't.

Because you are buying the entire thing in one hit, this isn't a progressive thing.. if it was a campaign and you took termi armour one game then the next swapped it out, then fair play

Ceann wrote:They are not rules. The movement phase has rules ,the shooting phase has rules. Special rules are rules. Wargear options are not rules, they permit you to purchase wargear, they do not have any game enforceable status. Notice all of the wargear options say MAY, which is not an absolute. Rules are absolutes. Now the wargear they permit you access too, the wargear does have rules the section explicitly days they do.

Many rules are not absolutes. Units MAY Move. Units MAY Shoot. Units MAY Run. Weapons with multiple profiles MAY choose which they are going to use each turn. Units MAY Charge. Units MAY Charge two units. Super-Heavy Vehicles MAY Shoot at multiple targets. No absolutes in this. Each one comes with absolute rules within them if you choose to use them, though.

Rules take many different forms as they are the regulations and principles which govern the conduct of every aspect of the game. There are the rules which cover how statistics work. There are rules which cover interactions between units and models. There are rules which allow a Captain to be upgraded to a Chapter Master, but not allow him to upgrade his Master Level.

Yes, they are options, but just as I stated, many other rules are governed by the option to use them. When you choose to engage those options, they become the rule for using that option. It is a rule that Captains MAY purchase Terminator Armour. It is a rule that those Captains can select Special Issue Wargear. It is also a rule that models in Terminator Armour cannot purchase a Bike or Jump Pack. It is also a rule that a model must have Terminator Armour in order to select Weapons from the Terminator Weapons list.

If the Options are not rules then the premise that a model doesn't have Terminator Armour for Special Issue Wargear but has it for selecting Wargear actually doesn't matter, as there are no rules to contradict the situation.

Additionally, it's a bit disengenous to state they are not rules when you ask this:

Ceann wrote:Where are the rules permitting you to perform that process?

.

col_impact wrote:

May replace terminator armour with Cataphractii armour ............................. free

Fair enough then

Don't feed the troll.

 firstsilentprophet wrote:
Terminator armour is terminator armour.

Cataphractii terminator amour is not not terminator armour!

The fact it uses the word terminator in its description should bi enough.

SM Codex - SM Wargear List: Special Issue Wargear: JP & bike MAY NOT BE TAKEN BY TERMINATORS. Just because it doesn't list the plethora of different Patterns of terminator armour is irrelevant!

There is a reason no-one models terminators on bike and with jump packs - cause doing so would get you laughed out of the room. There is more than enough fluff to explain what heavy terminator armour is used for, and NONE of it has bikes or jump packs.

Terminator armour is terminator armour.

There is a saying that keeps me calm in dealing with this kind of thing: 'I have enough to consider with my own shortcomings that to fret over the fact god did not evenly distribute intelligence'.

Your clearly wrong, and either know it and are just taking the piss, or your a ........ nah its just not worth it.

You are out of line. Please refer to the rules for YMDC before posting.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page#931434

col_impact wrote:


You are out of line. Please refer to the rules for YMDC before posting.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page#931434

Haha this is the best observation from you so far.

col_impact wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:


Again, just because you say something is so does not make it.

You assume that you are allowed to sequence wargear purchase to circumvent not being allowed to purchase terminator weapons when not in terminator armor.

You assume that wargear/weapon purchase are akin to snap shots in time, whose rules and/or restrictions do not carry over or persist with future changes of wargear/weapons.

You also assume that permissions are persistent through wargear changes as well, which is also selective assumption in your part to fit your narrative.

Now I know you are going to probably comeback with "I make no assumptions" or "point to me where I am breaking a rule". But the truth of the matter is that the burden of proof is not on me to prove that you are making assumptions throughout your entire little summary. The burden of proof is in you to show me per the RAW that you are allowed to make those assumptions. I know that no RAW exists to support those assumptions. I do know that RAW exists in the form of a precedence with regard to armor not being specifically labeled as terminator armor, being effectively ruled as terminator armor.

I make no assumptions

These steps are made in a straightforward manner. RAI assumption as you have no direction or permission to equip in a sequence to avoid the restrictions of a standing rule

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items) RAI assumption that once you swap out the terminator armor, any equipment associated solely with and restricted by the use of terminator armor is still legally equipped.

3) The Cataphratic Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour) Actually on point with the RAW currently with the only possible argument against that precedence is shown to have ruled that armor that acts like terminator armor, looks like terminator armor, smells like terminator armor, and talks like terminator is effectively terminator armor when it comes to wargear restrictions.

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour) RAI assumption in requirement for the powerfist to be with a model in terminator armor has somehow been fulfilled with the purchase and subsequent return of the terminator armor.


Where exactly am I breaking a rule?

Again, I don't need to show you breaking a rule, only show that you are basing your stance is based on RAI and therefore the legality of your stance is based upon your opinion and nothing more. The burden of proof is upon you to prove the RAW as you are making a RAW claim, but only backing it with RAI assumptions.

col_impact wrote:
Ceann,

Enough with your silly disruption.

What exactly do you think is illegal here?

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

My disruption?

You are required sir, required by YMDC forum rules to state your PRECEDENCE per Tenet 1 for the assertions you are making. You have done nothing except refuse to do this.
The assertion you are making is that you can equip items in any order and that the AoD supplement supersedes the Codex. You are required by Tenet 2 to show everyone here where this rule is located in a rulebook/faq etc. You were the one who was so quick to point to YMDC tenet's and state you could make "logical arguments" but ignored the fact that your argument wasn't actually logical and wasn't supporting a rule.

Provide what you are required to provide and then I will address you arguments. The argument you are attempting futilely to put forth is based on the presentation of information to support your claim. You providing that information would undermine your own argument so you refuse to do so.

What page in the AoD is this war gear on? "Terminator Weapons"
What page states you can buy things in sequence? "What allows 1,2,3,4 to occur"

These two questions are apparently so backbreakingly difficult as debate questions that you don't have the capability to answer them.
Rather than provide answers you instead call it a disruption to distract from your inability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And he's gone dark again. Ask a couple simple questions and he's gone. Then someone will make some reply with a default of actually acknowledging he has a precedence for his argument by entertaining it and he gets to sidestep providing evidence.