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2017/04/12 07:49:53
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Brother Ramses wrote: Exactly, the rule does not care how you get to work. You assumes the train is the fastest and that your boss meant that when he said to get to work by 9am. Your coworker assumes an Uber is fastest and that your boss meant that when he said to get to work by 9am. Neither of your are wrong and yet neither of you are correct because with the lack of specific clear direction, your boss has left it up to you to assume how he intended you to get to work by 9am. You cannot claim that your boss meant to get to work by 9am via the train as you have nothing to back up that claim just like your coworker cannot claim that your boss meant for you to get to work by 9am via Uber.[/b]
Right. So long as I produce a legal build for the roster I have satisfied the Rules As Written.
With that jump to conclusion you could literally make the next Special Olympics Team! This gaming system is based on RAW and RAI when it comes to rules. You cannot make an assumption on what the rules writers intended, follow that assumption, and then champion it as RAW because you made an assumption of what they intended, not what was written. Just like you could not walk into the office the next day at 9am and declare that riding the train is how your boss intended you to get to work by 9am.
Please ignore his real world examples, this is the 3rd time he does them in this debate, and he only does them to dodge credible claims. Real World examples are forbidden by Tenet 3. of YMDC.
2017/04/12 07:50:12
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
MattKing wrote: Is this just going to be the new standard of YMDC? Col_impact picks a ridiculous topic and everyone tries to reason with him for 20+ pages?
It happens every few months, kind of like a more drawn out version of the phases of the moon.
2017/04/12 07:51:09
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Brother Ramses wrote: Exactly, the rule does not care how you get to work. You assumes the train is the fastest and that your boss meant that when he said to get to work by 9am. Your coworker assumes an Uber is fastest and that your boss meant that when he said to get to work by 9am. Neither of your are wrong and yet neither of you are correct because with the lack of specific clear direction, your boss has left it up to you to assume how he intended you to get to work by 9am. You cannot claim that your boss meant to get to work by 9am via the train as you have nothing to back up that claim just like your coworker cannot claim that your boss meant for you to get to work by 9am via Uber.[/b]
Right. So long as I produce a legal build for the roster I have satisfied the Rules As Written.
With that jump to conclusion you could literally make the next Special Olympics Team! This gaming system is based on RAW and RAI when it comes to rules. You cannot make an assumption on what the rules writers intended, follow that assumption, and then champion it as RAW because you made an assumption of what they intended, not what was written. Just like you could not walk into the office the next day at 9am and declare that riding the train is how your boss intended you to get to work by 9am.
Keep in mind that I am not telling anyone how to produce a legal build for their rosters. There are no rules so there is no set way to produce a legal build for rosters. If I started telling people to do it a certain way then I would be trying to implement some house rule of my own. This is what Ceann is doing by telling people to purchase items in a left-right top-down order. However, obviously Ceann is making his stuff up so at best Ceann has his own odd house rule.
2017/04/12 07:54:15
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Brother Ramses wrote: Exactly, the rule does not care how you get to work. You assumes the train is the fastest and that your boss meant that when he said to get to work by 9am. Your coworker assumes an Uber is fastest and that your boss meant that when he said to get to work by 9am. Neither of your are wrong and yet neither of you are correct because with the lack of specific clear direction, your boss has left it up to you to assume how he intended you to get to work by 9am. You cannot claim that your boss meant to get to work by 9am via the train as you have nothing to back up that claim just like your coworker cannot claim that your boss meant for you to get to work by 9am via Uber.[/b]
Right. So long as I produce a legal build for the roster I have satisfied the Rules As Written.
With that jump to conclusion you could literally make the next Special Olympics Team! This gaming system is based on RAW and RAI when it comes to rules. You cannot make an assumption on what the rules writers intended, follow that assumption, and then champion it as RAW because you made an assumption of what they intended, not what was written. Just like you could not walk into the office the next day at 9am and declare that riding the train is how your boss intended you to get to work by 9am.
Please ignore his real world examples, this is the 3rd time he does them in this debate, and he only does them to dodge credible claims. Real World examples are forbidden by Tenet 3. of YMDC.
The rules are fuzzy about how to go about purchasing items, etc.
The rules really only care that when it comes time to presenting our Force Rosters that we have legal builds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So is anyone going to actually point out anything illegal in this process?
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour by default so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 07:59:27
2017/04/12 08:02:20
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
So is anyone going to actually point out anything illegal in this process?
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour by default so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
I cannot say if the process is illegal, your process claim has been discredited earlier, you need to provide a Force Roster so we can judge if it is illegal.
Also I guess you are conceding as you are asking questions instead of representing reasoned arguments with rule quotes.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/12 08:13:47
2017/04/12 08:07:05
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
I cannot say if the process is illegal, your process claim has been discredited earlier, you need to provide a Force Roster so we can judge if it is illegal.
Ok. Got it. You aren't finding anything illegal in those steps. Cool. So a big thumbs up from you.
2017/04/12 08:10:31
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
I cannot say if the process is illegal, your process claim has been discredited earlier, you need to provide a Force Roster so we can judge if it is illegal.
Ok. Got it. You aren't finding anything illegal in those steps. Cool. So a big thumbs up from you.
No thumbs up for you.
Steps are not described by rules. Rules demand you to produce legal Force Roster. You have not produced Force Roster so I cannot make judgement if it is illegal.
2017/04/12 08:19:37
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
I cannot say if the process is illegal, your process claim has been discredited earlier, you need to provide a Force Roster so we can judge if it is illegal.
Ok. Got it. You aren't finding anything illegal in those steps. Cool. So a big thumbs up from you.
No thumbs up for you.
Steps are not described by rules. Rules demand you to produce legal Force Roster. You have not produced Force Roster so I cannot make judgement if it is illegal.
The steps follow the rules. The steps produce a legal build.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour by default so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 08:21:55
2017/04/12 08:23:46
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
The steps follow the rules. The steps produce a legal build.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour by default so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
Steps are not defined by BRB, produce a clear argument with Force Roster as demanded by BRB.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 08:23:59
2017/04/12 08:27:35
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ghorgul wrote: Steps are not defined by BRB, produce a clear argument with Force Roster as demanded by BRB.
The steps follow the rules as they are in the BRB. If you think otherwise point out the rules I break.
Step 4 is a legal build for a Force Roster.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour by default so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/12 08:28:56
2017/04/12 08:34:21
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ghorgul wrote: Steps are not defined by BRB, produce a clear argument with Force Roster as demanded by BRB.
The steps follow the rules as they are in the BRB. If you think otherwise point out the rules I break.
Step 4 is a legal build for a Force Roster.
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
Codex Space Marines, Terminator Weapons, "A model wearing Terminator armour may replace his power weapon with one of the following: -Chainfist X pts".
Your force roster is illegal, it is breaking the rule stated above. Also it is illegal, wargear called "bike" does not exist. Also wargear called "Cataphractii armour" does not exist. So your Force Roster is illegal in 3 different parts.
Provide a clear argument with items that are actually listed on Space Marines Wargear List.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/12 09:58:01
2017/04/12 08:36:37
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Ghorgul wrote: Steps are not defined by BRB, produce a clear argument with Force Roster as demanded by BRB.
The steps follow the rules as they are in the BRB. If you think otherwise point out the rules I break.
Step 4 is a legal build for a Force Roster.
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
Codex Space Marines, Terminator Weapons, "A model wearing Terminator may replace his power weapon with one of the following: -Chainfist X pts".
Your force roster is illegal, it is breaking the rule stated above.
Incorrect. A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]" so a Terminator Captain may take a chain fist. No violation.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour by default so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
2017/04/12 08:43:39
Subject: Re:Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Incorrect. A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]" so a Terminator Captain may take a chain fist. No violation.
This claim has been discredited earlier:
Spoiler:
Incorrect.
The Terminator Captain model in Cataphractii has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list but he has no legal options within the Terminator Weapons list as all the options demand the model to be wearing Terminator Armour. Cataphractii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour.
Nothing in rule "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" suggests he may override the rules governing Terminator Weapons, as has been argued earlier by several people several times.
Let me give you a clear example where a rule overrides another rule:
Raptor Talon [Formation], page 53 in Traitor Legions Codex Supplement.
Formation has Special Rule: Predatory Warriors
Direct quote: "Units in this Formation can charge on the same turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, but always count as making a disordered charge when they do so."
There exists a basic rule, in BRB, stating that a unit cannot charge on the same turn it arrives from Deep Strike Reserve. (BRB, special rules, deep strike, pg. 162).
On page 13 in BRB, Basic versus Advanced:
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."
Clearly the Codex rule Predatory Warriors contradicts the Special Rule for Deep Striking in BRB, therefore Predatory Warriors rule overrides contradicting [special] rule in BRB.
BRB does not state that rules inside codex override other rules inside the same codex or another codex.
Please produce us an excerpt which supports your argument of Terminator Captain permission to Terminator Weapons to override restrictions within the options in Terminator Weapons. BRB, faq or errata will be sufficient.
I have shown you cannot make that judgement, produce a rule quote argument in support of your claim.
You still have not provided Force Roster with items that are actually in codex or supplements.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/12 09:57:38
2017/04/12 08:54:01
Subject: Re:Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Incorrect. A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]" so a Terminator Captain may take a chain fist. No violation.
This claim has been discredited earlier:
I have shown you cannot make that judgement, produce a rule quote argument in support of your claim.
The claim has not been discredited earlier. You failed to provide an argument with merit. System readout: Try Again!
Quote has already been provided.
A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]"
Is a chainfist an item from the Terminator Weapons list, yes or no?
If yes then a Terminator Captain may take it.
A Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour is a legal build.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour by default so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 08:57:34
2017/04/12 08:58:20
Subject: Re:Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Incorrect. A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]" so a Terminator Captain may take a chain fist. No violation.
This claim has been discredited earlier:
I have shown you cannot make that judgement, produce a rule quote argument in support of your claim.
The claim has not been discredited earlier. Failure to provide an argument with merit. System readout: Try Again!
Quote has already been provided.
A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]"
Is a chainfist an item from the Terminator Weapons list, yes or no?
If yes then a Terminator Captain may take it.
A Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour is a legal build.
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour by default so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
You again failed to produce Force Roster with items that exist in the rules available, making your Force Roster illegal.
There is no "Cataphractii armour" in the Army List Entry. There is no "bike" in Space Marine Wargear List.
Your claim has been discredited and no rule quote to challenge my argument below has been provided:
Spoiler:
Incorrect.
The Terminator Captain model in Cataphractii has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list but he has no legal options within the Terminator Weapons list as all the options demand the model to be wearing Terminator Armour. Cataphractii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour.
Nothing in rule "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" suggests he may override the rules governing Terminator Weapons, as has been argued earlier by several people several times.
Let me give you a clear example where a rule overrides another rule:
Raptor Talon [Formation], page 53 in Traitor Legions Codex Supplement.
Formation has Special Rule: Predatory Warriors
Direct quote: "Units in this Formation can charge on the same turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, but always count as making a disordered charge when they do so."
There exists a basic rule, in BRB, stating that a unit cannot charge on the same turn it arrives from Deep Strike Reserve. (BRB, special rules, deep strike, pg. 162).
On page 13 in BRB, Basic versus Advanced:
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."
Clearly the Codex rule Predatory Warriors contradicts the Special Rule for Deep Striking in BRB, therefore Predatory Warriors rule overrides contradicting [special] rule in BRB.
BRB does not state that rules inside codex override other rules inside the same codex or another codex.
Please produce us an excerpt which supports your argument of Terminator Captain permission to Terminator Weapons to override restrictions within the options in Terminator Weapons. BRB, faq or errata will be sufficient.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/12 09:56:23
2017/04/12 09:05:54
Subject: Re:Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
You again failed to produce Force Roster with items that exist in the rules available, making your Force Roster illegal.
You claim has been discredited and no rule quote to challenge my argument below has been provided:
Your argument has been discarded due to lack of merit. System readout: Spam rejected!
A Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour is a legal build.
A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]"
A Terminator Captain may take a chainfist.
You have failed to show anything illegal in the following . . .
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour by default so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
Therefore, you have tacitly accepted that the above is entirely legal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 09:07:08
2017/04/12 09:14:34
Subject: Re:Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Your argument has been discarded due to lack of merit. System readout: Spam rejected!
A Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour is a legal build.
A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]"
A Terminator Captain may take a chainfist.
You have failed to show anything illegal in the following . . .
Spoiler:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour by default so he may replace and he does)
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)
3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)
4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)
Therefore, you have tacitly accepted that the above is entirely legal.
Incorrect, I have not accepted.
Spoiler:
Incorrect.
The Terminator Captain model in Cataphractii has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list but he has no legal options within the Terminator Weapons list as all the options demand the model to be wearing Terminator Armour. Cataphractii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour.
Nothing in rule "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" suggests he may override the rules governing Terminator Weapons, as has been argued earlier by several people several times.
Let me give you a clear example where a rule overrides another rule:
Raptor Talon [Formation], page 53 in Traitor Legions Codex Supplement.
Formation has Special Rule: Predatory Warriors
Direct quote: "Units in this Formation can charge on the same turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, but always count as making a disordered charge when they do so."
There exists a basic rule, in BRB, stating that a unit cannot charge on the same turn it arrives from Deep Strike Reserve. (BRB, special rules, deep strike, pg. 162).
On page 13 in BRB, Basic versus Advanced:
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."
Clearly the Codex rule Predatory Warriors contradicts the Special Rule for Deep Striking in BRB, therefore Predatory Warriors rule overrides contradicting [special] rule in BRB.
BRB does not state that rules inside codex override other rules inside the same codex or another codex.
Please produce us an excerpt which supports your argument of Terminator Captain permission to Terminator Weapons to override restrictions within the options in Terminator Weapons. BRB, faq or errata will be sufficient.
You remain inable to come up with legal Force Roster and we cannot have fruitful debate if you cannot make clear arguments using Force Roster with items and options that actually exist in the rules.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/04/12 09:59:56
2017/04/12 11:41:33
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
We read the rules top to bottom left to right.
That is how English dictates we read the rules. I will use all English rules published since the origin of the game as my precedence.
Please demonstrate the English rules are read another way.
Because we are using English you have to choose the armor type, the 2nd option, on the data sheet first before other items., that is the order they are listed in. Choosing weapons from terminator weapons is the 3rd option option.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If I am reading the option for terminator or special wargear I have already opted which armor I am choosing. We do not read rules backwards or change the order of the sentences, that is not RAW.
RAW tells us we may first replace the power sword with a relic blade.
Second gives us the option to replace our terminator armor.
Third gives us the option for terminator or special wargear.
Our decision of what armor to wear has already been made, this is RAW, Verbatim, line by line.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/12 11:50:34
2017/04/12 12:22:54
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
And a Chapter Master has permission to take items from the wargear list, correct? Therefore any restrictions from that list don't apply, and a Chapter Master in termies armor can take a bike or jump pack.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2017/04/12 12:31:45
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Happyjew wrote: And a Chapter Master has permission to take items from the wargear list, correct? Therefore any restrictions from that list don't apply, and a Chapter Master in termies armor can take a bike or jump pack.
We are not talking chapter master here
2017/04/12 12:34:54
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Our decision of what armor to wear has already been made, this is RAW, Verbatim, line by line.
I agree with you, but this is pointless argument, he will just ignore it and then say Army List entry for Terminator Captain gives [him] permission to take items from Terminator Weapons. And he uses this permission as justification for overriding the rules=restrictions contained within Terminator Weapons.
Spoiler:
Which is incorrect btw, this does not allow Terminator Captain in Cataphractii Terminator Armour to make any legal choices from Terminator Weapons as Cataphractii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour by definition given in Codex Supplement Angels of Death. There is no precedent rule quote cited for this kind of permission overriding restrictions within the Terminator Weapons [list]. Examples of overriding have been given, but according to BRB they only happen with conflicts of BRB rule vs. codex rule.
I added this spoiler so he couldn't jump in and claim I agree with him, or that rules allow it because what I just stated.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 12:35:43
2017/04/12 12:52:19
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
The process used is complete rubbish.
You cannot pick an order to select wargear in order to get around restrictions.
You have a captain in terminator armour - fine.
You select a chainfist - also fine.
You swap terminator armour for cataphractii - not fine.
Cataphractii armour is not terminator armour by your definition col.
So has no ability to have a chainfist as that's selected only by terminators.
Doesn't matter what process you used to get the end result, the end result there is still an illegal one as a model has wargear that's restricted.
On a lighter note, can a mod just lock this off please?
Pretty much everyone is in agreement here as to how it works.
Another user backs up claims with nothing and spouts childish retorts instead of factual reasoning.
This will achieve nothing.
Happyjew wrote: And a Chapter Master has permission to take items from the wargear list, correct? Therefore any restrictions from that list don't apply, and a Chapter Master in termies armor can take a bike or jump pack.
by col_impact's logic yes: 1st you pick Terminator Armour from Special Issue Wargear.
Then we go read the rule: "A Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator armour may only take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists."
Now the magic happens, read carefully: "Chapter Master in Terminator armour may only take items from... Special Issue Wargear.." He has permission now to take items from the said list, so he is allowed to ignore all the restrictions within the list. So we can now equip Chapter Master in Terminator armour with Space Marine bike. Space Marine bike does have restriction: "May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour." col_impact claims that permission to take items from the list allows him to ignore restrictions within the said list, and the restriction is listed inside the list.
He has given no rule quote to support his disregard for restrictions within the list.
His logic is clearly flawed, nothing in the rule suggests it will override any restrictions contained in the List. And it doesn't matter if the permission to Terminator Weapons or Special Issue Wargear comes from Codex Space Marines or Codex Supplement Angels of Death. There is no line in Angels of Death that says that Wargear list restrictions are invalidated. And the quote to invalidate Wargear List restrictions would need to be RAW, his logic in this is purely RAI. "May take items from [List]" implies in his opinion "May take items from [List] while disregarding all restrictions within the list". His logic is clearly RAI instead of RAW.
2017/04/12 13:08:30
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Happyjew wrote: And a Chapter Master has permission to take items from the wargear list, correct? Therefore any restrictions from that list don't apply, and a Chapter Master in termies armor can take a bike or jump pack.
by col_impact's logic yes: 1st you pick Terminator Armour from Special Issue Wargear. Then we go read the rule: "A Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator armour may only take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists."
Now the magic happens, read carefully: "Chapter Master in Terminator armour may only take items from... Special Issue Wargear.." He has permission now to take items from the said list, so he is allowed to ignore all the restrictions within the list. So we can now equip Chapter Master in Terminator armour with Space Marine bike. Space Marine bike does have restriction: "May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour." col_impact claims that permission to take items from the list allows him to ignore restrictions within the said list, and the restriction is listed inside the list. He has given no rule quote to support his disregard for restrictions within the list.
His logic is clearly flawed, nothing in the rule suggests it will override any restrictions contained in the List. And it doesn't matter if the permission to Terminator Weapons or Special Issue Wargear comes from Codex Space Marines or Codex Supplement Angels of Death. There is no line in Angels of Death that says that Wargear list restrictions are invalidated. And the quote to invalidate Wargear List restrictions would need to be RAW, his logic in this is purely RAI. "May take items from [List]" implies in his opinion "May take items from [List] while disregarding all restrictions within the list". His logic is clearly RAI instead of RAW.
He is using the Terminator Captain from codex Angles of Death for his thing, which has Terminator weapons on his list
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 13:08:44
2017/04/12 13:11:38
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Our decision of what armor to wear has already been made, this is RAW, Verbatim, line by line.
I agree with you, but this is pointless argument, he will just ignore it and then say Army List entry for Terminator Captain gives [him] permission to take items from Terminator Weapons. And he uses this permission as justification for overriding the rules=restrictions contained within Terminator Weapons.
Spoiler:
Which is incorrect btw, this does not allow Terminator Captain in Cataphractii Terminator Armour to make any legal choices from Terminator Weapons as Cataphractii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour by definition given in Codex Supplement Angels of Death. There is no precedent rule quote cited for this kind of permission overriding restrictions within the Terminator Weapons [list]. Examples of overriding have been given, but according to BRB they only happen with conflicts of BRB rule vs. codex rule.
I added this spoiler so he couldn't jump in and claim I agree with him, or that rules allow it because what I just stated.
This is incorrect you must be wearing terminator armor to take the fist. If you are wearing terminator armor at that point you cannot take the bike.
2017/04/12 13:25:07
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Jackal wrote: Doesn't matter what process you used to get the end result, the end result there is still an illegal one as a model has wargear that's restricted.
On a lighter note, can a mod just lock this off please?
Pretty much everyone is in agreement here as to how it works.
Another user backs up claims with nothing and spouts childish retorts instead of factual reasoning.
This will achieve nothing.
Hear hear!
Quick note about process/sequence:
Spoiler:
Rules know no process/sequence to choose options, as you said. RAW, BRB demands one to record a Force Roster. "Write down the details of the models that make up your army.." Specific Force Roster entry=model legality can be only judged based on the items/options listed there, and this mentions no process or sequence to be recorded. You just write down the details, in case of Terminator Captain built by col_impact this would be:
Those would be the details needed to be recorded to Force Roster, so exactly what the model has, assuming WYSIWYG. There is no place for sequence to be written. Sequence of choosing is not model's detail. And yes, the Force Roster above does not follow all the relevant rules, i.e. it is illegal.
The spoilered explanation about process I added because col_impact has used the 'process' many times now to distract people.
Happyjew wrote: And a Chapter Master has permission to take items from the wargear list, correct? Therefore any restrictions from that list don't apply, and a Chapter Master in termies armor can take a bike or jump pack.
by col_impact's logic yes: 1st you pick Terminator Armour from Special Issue Wargear.
Then we go read the rule: "A Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator armour may only take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists."
Now the magic happens, read carefully: "Chapter Master in Terminator armour may only take items from... Special Issue Wargear.." He has permission now to take items from the said list, so he is allowed to ignore all the restrictions within the list. So we can now equip Chapter Master in Terminator armour with Space Marine bike. Space Marine bike does have restriction: "May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour." col_impact claims that permission to take items from the list allows him to ignore restrictions within the said list, and the restriction is listed inside the list.
He has given no rule quote to support his disregard for restrictions within the list.
His logic is clearly flawed, nothing in the rule suggests it will override any restrictions contained in the List. And it doesn't matter if the permission to Terminator Weapons or Special Issue Wargear comes from Codex Space Marines or Codex Supplement Angels of Death. There is no line in Angels of Death that says that Wargear list restrictions are invalidated. And the quote to invalidate Wargear List restrictions would need to be RAW, his logic in this is purely RAI. "May take items from [List]" implies in his opinion "May take items from [List] while disregarding all restrictions within the list". His logic is clearly RAI instead of RAW.
He is using the Terminator Captain from codex Angles of Death for his thing, which has Terminator weapons on his list
I know, I am trying to show that his claim of Rule giving permission to List allows one to override restrictions within the List in question is ridiculously false because if it were true we could override all kinds of restrictions based on implied permission to take anything from list. Like I describe in spoilers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 13:33:36
2017/04/12 13:44:00
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Jackal wrote: Doesn't matter what process you used to get the end result, the end result there is still an illegal one as a model has wargear that's restricted.
On a lighter note, can a mod just lock this off please?
Pretty much everyone is in agreement here as to how it works.
Another user backs up claims with nothing and spouts childish retorts instead of factual reasoning.
This will achieve nothing.
Hear hear!
Quick note about process/sequence:
Spoiler:
Rules know no process/sequence to choose options, as you said. RAW, BRB demands one to record a Force Roster. "Write down the details of the models that make up your army.." Specific Force Roster entry=model legality can be only judged based on the items/options listed there, and this mentions no process or sequence to be recorded. You just write down the details, in case of Terminator Captain built by col_impact this would be:
Those would be the details needed to be recorded to Force Roster, so exactly what the model has, assuming WYSIWYG. There is no place for sequence to be written. Sequence of choosing is not model's detail. And yes, the Force Roster above does not follow all the relevant rules, i.e. it is illegal.
The spoilered explanation about process I added because col_impact has used the 'process' many times now to distract people.
Happyjew wrote: And a Chapter Master has permission to take items from the wargear list, correct? Therefore any restrictions from that list don't apply, and a Chapter Master in termies armor can take a bike or jump pack.
by col_impact's logic yes: 1st you pick Terminator Armour from Special Issue Wargear.
Then we go read the rule: "A Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator armour may only take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists."
Now the magic happens, read carefully: "Chapter Master in Terminator armour may only take items from... Special Issue Wargear.." He has permission now to take items from the said list, so he is allowed to ignore all the restrictions within the list. So we can now equip Chapter Master in Terminator armour with Space Marine bike. Space Marine bike does have restriction: "May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour." col_impact claims that permission to take items from the list allows him to ignore restrictions within the said list, and the restriction is listed inside the list.
He has given no rule quote to support his disregard for restrictions within the list.
His logic is clearly flawed, nothing in the rule suggests it will override any restrictions contained in the List. And it doesn't matter if the permission to Terminator Weapons or Special Issue Wargear comes from Codex Space Marines or Codex Supplement Angels of Death. There is no line in Angels of Death that says that Wargear list restrictions are invalidated. And the quote to invalidate Wargear List restrictions would need to be RAW, his logic in this is purely RAI. "May take items from [List]" implies in his opinion "May take items from [List] while disregarding all restrictions within the list". His logic is clearly RAI instead of RAW.
He is using the Terminator Captain from codex Angles of Death for his thing, which has Terminator weapons on his list
I know, I am trying to show that his claim of Rule giving permission to List allows one to override restrictions within the List in question is ridiculously false because if it were true we could override all kinds of restrictions based on implied permission to take anything from list. Like I describe in spoilers.
Your attempt to do this is not required and forces a concession your part in return for a chance to prove him wrong later on.
The rules of the game are in English.
There is no rule on how the rules are read.
We can either read, no rules or, use a standard method to read all the rules.
If we read the rules we must choose a method of reading the rules.
In English you read from top to bottom, left to right.
His options are on the data sheet, listing a choice for the armor type prior to the purchasing of terminator weapons or special wargear. There is nothing that allows you to backtrack in the rules and make another decision. I cannot choose a warp power, roll the dice and then decide to go back and choose a different one to apply the roll too, the choice was already made.
Once you have chosen the armor you are wearing you can decide to exchange your powersword or purchase special gear. At that point you either are or are not wearing terminator armor.
This is RAW.
We are not permitted to choose the order we read the sentences of the rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 13:45:02
2017/04/12 13:58:38
Subject: Cataphractii Captain using the Raven's Fury Jump Pack
Your attempt to do this is not required and forces a concession your part in return for a chance to prove him wrong later on.
The rules of the game are in English.
There is no rule on how the rules are read.
We can either read, no rules or, use a standard method to read all the rules.
If we read the rules we must choose a method of reading the rules.
In English you read from top to bottom, left to right.
His options are on the data sheet, listing a choice for the armor type prior to the purchasing of terminator weapons or special wargear. There is nothing that allows you to backtrack in the rules and make another decision. I cannot choose a warp power, roll the dice and then decide to go back and choose a different one to apply the roll too, the choice was already made.
Once you have chosen the armor you are wearing you can decide to exchange your powersword or purchase special gear. At that point you either are or are not wearing terminator armor.
This is RAW.
We are not permitted to choose the order we read the sentences of the rules.
Believe me, I agree with you, but bringing out the process is not strictly necessary when you can just use final Force Roster. There is no sequence, no memory, no history, so col_impact cannot first pick chainfist with terminator armour, then switch to Cata and then pick bike. Instead you just read the roster: "ahaa, he has Cata and chainfist, you cannot replace your power weapon with chainfist while wearing Cata!"
But yeah of course everything is read in order, like normal reading, but otherwise the Force Roster is instant, like a flash. Of course you can interpret the Force Roster in sequence, but the fact is if there is even a single conflict, it is illegal, so you do not need to interpret the whole Force Roster in careful sequence.
12,000 
