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Ceann wrote:
This is correct Charistoph.


If we went by that, nothing would be and Advanced Rule except for List Building and Mission Rule, because every rule refers back to something in those areas.


The only rules located in the Unit Types section are basic rules for those type and any special rules notated to them in their Special Rules section.

Advanced rules that apply to units can be found in Army List Entry's, not found in the BRB.

Except, that is not the definition of either, and you are applying a double standard by pushing this definition.

You are taking something that refers back to something as a definition of it being basic. This is not the case at any point. It is only when those areas match exactly with those rules met for the Infantry Unit Type, that they are Basic. When they go beyond it, they are Advanced.

As the definition of the Advanced rules state, "whether it is because they possess a special kind of weapon, unusual skills, because they are different to their fellows, or because they are not normal infantry models."

By taking this stance, you are ignoring this very specific definition

Ceann wrote:
I have not claimed a Bike Character would become infantry if it joined an infantry unit. I claimed it would meet the criteria of Advanced Rules as they apply to a SPECIFIC model.

Sorry, you said it the other way in the previous thread. You said, "If I add an IC with a bike to the unit that unit may have those rules, if the IC leaves those rules leave with him, that is advanced."

You were talking about the Bike rules that the IC carried with them.

Ceann wrote:
Which is the critera that you all have been trying to conflate to an entire unit "because it contains models" A unit containing models is still not a specific model. A specific model is a specific model.

But they do apply to every specific model in the unit. You are deliberately blinding yourself to this.

Do the individual models in a Bike unit (without IC's) have Relentless, yes or no?

Ceann wrote:
If the unit is an infantry unit, it will always be an infantry unti.
Just like a bike unit with 12 IC's attached is still a bike unit.

Each of those 12 ADVANCED RULES SPECIFIC MODELS may have individual rules that apply to them as a model and not the unit.

And I see you still have not read any of the Unit Type rules which specifically state that their rules apply to the models. I have quoted from the introduction of the Unit Types that this very thing happens.

You are considering that the "Unit Type" only applies to "units", which is taking the name far too literally and ignoring numerous other statements which states otherwise.

In addition, you do not seem to understand the relationship between unit and model. Anything that is applied to the unit whole, affects the individual models which make up the unit. This is how Stubborn and Shrouded work. This is not how Relentless works.

Ceann wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

Ok... FMC now.

Say it uses the jump rules, ok.

MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".

Says movement phase, looks like a basic rule to me.

And that's your problem. All basic movement rules are movement rules, but not all movement rules are basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
Per Core Rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

Which is 6" according to the FIRST SENTENCE under "MOVEMENT DISTANCES" - "Models move up to 6" in the movement phase.' Okay, we've established that...wait a minute, they don't move 6". The basic movement rule of 6" must have been OVERRIDDEN. It can't be a basic rule overriding it, it has to be an advance rule.

Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules. What section are Unit Rules in, the Core Rules? (answer - no, the Unit Rules section). So, any rules that contradict a basic rule when the rule is not in the core rule section must be an advanced rule.

And I will ask you as I have asked everyone else.

We have THREE statements from the CORE RULES - MOVEMENT PHASE section.

1.
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to
their maximum movement distance.

2.
Movement Distance - Subsection- Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency (see below).

3.
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.


1, 2 and 3, cannot ALL be correct.

On 1. it states we are going to talk about Infantry first and the rest LATER, with the page numbers and then on 3, it tells us 6". Clearly it is only talking about infantry because it just TOLD US it was going to tell us about infantry. It did not state that 6" is the defacto standard for movement, it said we would talk about the others later and included the page numbers.

They can be correct when there is an ADVANCED rule later that OVERRIDES rule 3. We ARE given rule 3 as a specific basic rule, though. As others have told you before, rules 1 and 2 are not written in ignorance of there being advanced rules later in the book. Advanced rules will override rule 3.

Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules.

 Roknar wrote:
There are no basic rules for the various unit types. That notion goes against the very definition of a basic rule.
Basic rules apply to ALL models. The rules for the various unit types only apply to those specific models as opposed to ALL models.
That makes the unit types advanced rules. Advanced rules that apply to all models of a given type.

So yes, they are a template for a rather large sub set of models,.
And applying to only a subset of ALL models makes those rules NOT basic rules.

THESE are the requirements for advanced rules.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models...
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

Which of these are A specific model Roknar?
Which of these is are units?

1. Bikers
3 Bikers

2. Veterans
1 Sergeant:
4 Veteran:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

Ok... FMC now.

Say it uses the jump rules, ok.

MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".

Says movement phase, looks like a basic rule to me.

And that's your problem. All basic movement rules are movement rules, but not all movement rules are basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
Per Core Rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

Which is 6" according to the FIRST SENTENCE under "MOVEMENT DISTANCES" - "Models move up to 6" in the movement phase.' Okay, we've established that...wait a minute, they don't move 6". The basic movement rule of 6" must have been OVERRIDDEN. It can't be a basic rule overriding it, it has to be an advance rule.

Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules. What section are Unit Rules in, the Core Rules? (answer - no, the Unit Rules section). So, any rules that contradict a basic rule when the rule is not in the core rule section must be an advanced rule.

And I will ask you as I have asked everyone else.

We have THREE statements from the CORE RULES - MOVEMENT PHASE section.

1.
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to
their maximum movement distance.

2.
Movement Distance - Subsection- Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency (see below).

3.
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.


1, 2 and 3, cannot ALL be correct.

On 1. it states we are going to talk about Infantry first and the rest LATER, with the page numbers and then on 3, it tells us 6". Clearly it is only talking about infantry because it just TOLD US it was going to tell us about infantry. It did not state that 6" is the defacto standard for movement, it said we would talk about the others later and included the page numbers.

They can be correct when there is an ADVANCED rule later that OVERRIDES rule 3. We ARE given rule 3 as a specific basic rule, though. As others have told you before, rules 1 and 2 are not written in ignorance of there being advanced rules later in the book. Advanced rules will override rule 3.

Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules.

Where is the location of the Unit Type - Infantry located?
On the FIRST PAGE of unit types.
If the rules that apply to Unit Type - Infantry are located in the core rules section.
Then we know that those are values take from the Unit Types section and plugged into the core rules.

Otherwise because the Unit Infantry Type is in advanced rule section, none of the rules work because they have no values.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
A special rule is an advanced rule.

An advanced rule is not necessarily a special rule.

The definition of a special rule is "an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules." So, unless we're including Advanced Rules as part of the main game rules, then yes, advanced rules are special rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:THESE are the requirements for advanced rules.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models...
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

That's cherry-picking.

The requirements for Advanced rules are because of:
* Of a Weapon
* Unusual Skill
* Different from their fellows
* Not Normal Infantry Models

It is not a requirement that they be indicated on the Army List Entry, that part is just letting you know where to find them. Even if it were, where do I find out that a Codex Bike Marine is of the Bike Unit Type?

Ceann wrote:Where is the location of the Unit Type - Infantry located?
On the FIRST PAGE of unit types.

And what does it say? Does it say anything to exempt this unit type from the basic rules?

No. It specifically states the opposite. "As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here."

Ignoring that statement is cherry-picking.

Ceann wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
There are no basic rules for the various unit types. That notion goes against the very definition of a basic rule.
Basic rules apply to ALL models. The rules for the various unit types only apply to those specific models as opposed to ALL models.
That makes the unit types advanced rules. Advanced rules that apply to all models of a given type.

So yes, they are a template for a rather large sub set of models,.
And applying to only a subset of ALL models makes those rules NOT basic rules.

THESE are the requirements for advanced rules.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models...
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

Which of these are A specific model Roknar?
Which of these is are units?

1. Bikers
3 Bikers

2. Veterans
1 Sergeant:
4 Veteran:

You forgot another requirement for advanced rules - it must not be a basic rule.

Page 7: (beginning of Core Rules) "This secton contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight Warhammer 40,000 battles"

Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules

Ceann wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

Ok... FMC now.

Say it uses the jump rules, ok.

MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".

Says movement phase, looks like a basic rule to me.

And that's your problem. All basic movement rules are movement rules, but not all movement rules are basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
Per Core Rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

Which is 6" according to the FIRST SENTENCE under "MOVEMENT DISTANCES" - "Models move up to 6" in the movement phase.' Okay, we've established that...wait a minute, they don't move 6". The basic movement rule of 6" must have been OVERRIDDEN. It can't be a basic rule overriding it, it has to be an advance rule.

Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules. What section are Unit Rules in, the Core Rules? (answer - no, the Unit Rules section). So, any rules that contradict a basic rule when the rule is not in the core rule section must be an advanced rule.

And I will ask you as I have asked everyone else.

We have THREE statements from the CORE RULES - MOVEMENT PHASE section.

1.
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to
their maximum movement distance.

2.
Movement Distance - Subsection- Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency (see below).

3.
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.


1, 2 and 3, cannot ALL be correct.

On 1. it states we are going to talk about Infantry first and the rest LATER, with the page numbers and then on 3, it tells us 6". Clearly it is only talking about infantry because it just TOLD US it was going to tell us about infantry. It did not state that 6" is the defacto standard for movement, it said we would talk about the others later and included the page numbers.

They can be correct when there is an ADVANCED rule later that OVERRIDES rule 3. We ARE given rule 3 as a specific basic rule, though. As others have told you before, rules 1 and 2 are not written in ignorance of there being advanced rules later in the book. Advanced rules will override rule 3.

Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules.

Where is the location of the Unit Type - Infantry located?
On the FIRST PAGE of unit types.

The infantry rules that say "no additional rules are required" There are no new rules written for Infantry, therefore the infantry is covered by the basic rules. The other units have new rules, though. These rules are not basic rules. They are not in the core rules section.

Ceann wrote:
If the rules that apply to Unit Type - Infantry are located in the core rules section.
Then we know that those are values take from the Unit Types section and plugged into the core rules.

Otherwise because the Unit Infantry Type is in advanced rule section, none of the rules work because they have no values.

We are told there are NO NEW RULES for infantry,, so the basic rules cover all the rules for infantry. This does NOT mean that ALL unit type rules are infantry rules. Advanced rules are rules that can override the basic rules. If there is no need to override the basic rules, they don't. For example, you do not see new shooting rules for jump packs or jet packs, so you use the basic rules. Any rule that is not in the basic section that's here, though, IS an advanced rule and overrides the basic rule. We are told Bike units move 12". The basic rules say you move 6". The rule for Bike units overrides the basic rule for moving 6". This is a rule for the unit (which is not a rule for the wargear - the wargear give a unit or a model the unit type, but it is the unit type that grants the movement rule. Again, it doesn not have to be wargear - see FMC).

Merely being told that there is a unit type does not mean that all the rules for the unit type are basic rules, which is the fundamental mistake you keep making.

Ceann wrote:
Which of these are A specific model Roknar?
Which of these is are units?

1. Bikers
3 Bikers

2. Veterans
1 Sergeant:
4 Veteran:

I explained this to you earlier. You've misunderstood what "specific types of models" refers to.

Bikers are specific types of models, being Bikes, as different from normal Infantry models.

A Sergeant is also a specific type of model, being a Character, as different from a normal Infantry model.

This needs to be done a different way...

1.
Is a Stormbolter a basic rule, or advanced rule?

2.
Is Psychic Shriek a basic rule, or an advanced rule?

We can't explain it to you. Not only do you not agree on what is a basic rule and what not, you don't even agree to the definition of a basic rule.
That makes it impossible to debate as you are basing all your statements on a completely different standard and you apply those standards to our arguments too.

Ceann wrote:
This needs to be done a different way...

1.
Is a Stormbolter a basic rule, or advanced rule?

2.
Is Psychic Shriek a basic rule, or an advanced rule?

Why don't you respond to others' counter points rather than just changing tack without acknowledging them at all?

Without having my books on me I would say a storm bolter is an item if wargear which applies advanced rules by virtue of normal Infantry models not being equipped with it. Similarly with psychic shriek being a psychic power.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Ceann wrote:
This needs to be done a different way...

1.
Is a Stormbolter a basic rule, or advanced rule?

2.
Is Psychic Shriek a basic rule, or an advanced rule?

Why don't you respond to others' counter points rather than just changing tack without acknowledging them at all?

Because the discussion involving movement is based upon a single flawed factor.
That infantry were used as the example to explain how the rules work.
Something has to be used an example when you are explaining something, in order to show how it functions.
If you actually read all of the movement rules, it tells you "a unit moves, when models move" It never says "when an infantry model moves".

Because they were used as the example movement is for some reason considered a standard even though it is never stated to be a standard, the unit type section is never specifically referred too by "basic vs advanced" and that page the Index directs us to page 13, which tells us to consult Army List Entry's, not the Unit Types section.

In order to separate that flaw from the argument I have referred to the above.

Ceann wrote:
This needs to be done a different way...

1.
Is a Stormbolter a basic rule, or advanced rule?

2.
Is Psychic Shriek a basic rule, or an advanced rule?

Go back and answer our questions first, don't just dodge them because you're uncomfortable answering them. Others had their questions and challenges as well, but to try to start with a basic where we can agree on things, I really need you to answer my question:

Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules



EDIT: I also already answered the Stormbolter part with the reason why, and asked you to answer your own question. You haven't yet. Do YOU think a Stormbolter is a basic rule or an advanced rule?

The rules for infantry have nothing to do with basic rules. At all. They could remove infantry from the game and the rules would still hold. All the rules for infantry just happen to be in line with the basic rules without the need for any additions or changes.

 Charistoph wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
A special rule is an advanced rule.

An advanced rule is not necessarily a special rule.

The definition of a special rule is "an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules." So, unless we're including Advanced Rules as part of the main game rules, then yes, advanced rules are special rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:THESE are the requirements for advanced rules.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models...
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

That's cherry-picking.

The requirements for Advanced rules are because of:
* Of a Weapon
* Unusual Skill
* Different from their fellows
* Not Normal Infantry Models

It is not a requirement that they be indicated on the Army List Entry, that part is just letting you know where to find them. Even if it were, where do I find out that a Codex Bike Marine is of the Bike Unit Type?

Ceann wrote:Where is the location of the Unit Type - Infantry located?
On the FIRST PAGE of unit types.

And what does it say? Does it say anything to exempt this unit type from the basic rules?

No. It specifically states the opposite. "As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here."

Ignoring that statement is cherry-picking.

main game rules includes everything. A special rule can do anything it wants.

The basic rules are not "A model moves 6"

The basic rules are...
Models & Units,
General Principals,
The Turn,
The Movement Phase,
The Psychic Phase,
The Shooting Phase,
The Assault Phase,
And Morale.

Unit types merely tells you HOW a particular unit performs an action within one of those phases. It does not add any new phases, all phases have been discussed in the core rules section.

Unit types are the options for units within those phases.
Weaponry are the options for units within those phases.
Melee Weapons etc.
Psychic Powers etc.

If a model performs an action during any of those phases, those are basic rules and they apply to ALL MODELS.

So you consider dice as models? That explains a lot.

Here is the best comparison I can think of.

You want to learn how to play football.
So you ask your friend.

Your friend puts together two teams to teach you how to play the game. On each team, each person is exactly identical to be the least confusing as possible.

You take your team and play against someone else.
You find out his players are all different from yours, they have different weights, some move faster than others, some are taller, some are shorter.

Did this person break any rules for his team?
No.

He is playing the same game you are, by the same set of rules you are. Some of his players are different than yours, since you decided to keep the team you were showed how to play with, that doesn't mean the other player is doing anything wrong.

This is exactly the scenario we have.

You claim that Unit Types in that section do things differently than infantry therefore... they are breaking basic rules! Those guys must be advanced rules then.

This is incorrect, what this means is that the flexibility available to you, was not demonstrated to you when you were learning how to play.

It's not even that you don't accept our arguments, your own standards don't hold up.
If both teams are identical, then they can't possibly be of different weights etc. That's kind of the point of being identical, they are 100% the same.
And if they're not, well...they're not. There isn't really any leeway there.

Same for the rules, they either apply to all models or they don't.

 Roknar wrote:
It's not even that you don't accept our arguments, your own standards don't hold up.
If both teams are identical, then they can't possibly be of different weights etc. That's kind of the point of being identical, they are 100% the same.
And if they're not, well...they're not. There isn't really any leeway there.

Same for the rules, they either apply to all models or they don't.

Dude...

Do you read the part where I said, takes his team and plays someone else.

Apparently not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Discussing movement isn't working to get my point across.

This needs to be done a different way...

1.
Is a Stormbolter a basic rule, or advanced rule?

2.
Is Psychic Shriek a basic rule, or an advanced rule?

Ceann wrote:1. Is a Stormbolter a basic rule, or advanced rule?

Already answered. Neither. It is not a rule. It is a piece of Wargear known as a Weapon. It carries rules as part of its aspect. Some are basic. Some may be advanced. It is the equivalent of saying is a Tactical Marine a basic rule or advanced rule.

Ceann wrote:2. Is Psychic Shriek a basic rule, or an advanced rule?

Neither. It is a Psychic Power. It carries a butt-load of advanced rules, though. Some of which completely override its Witchfire nature.

These questions fail because the options exclude the nature of what the subject is.

Ceann wrote:Because the discussion involving movement is based upon a single flawed factor.
That infantry were used as the example to explain how the rules work.

Because they are stated to in several areas, including in the definition of Advanced Rules. Why do you ignore these statements, besides the fact that they do not agree with your paradigm?

Ceann wrote:Something has to be used an example when you are explaining something, in order to show how it functions.
If you actually read all of the movement rules, it tells you "a unit moves, when models move" It never says "when an infantry model moves".

Because Infantry models do not inherently change the Movement Distance rule that you consistently ignore. In addition, there are several other types of models which do follow Infantry Movement rules as well: Monstrous Creatures and Walkers to name two. In addition, the Character type does not address Movement at all, so being a Character does nothing to change the rules found in Movement Distance. Being a Jet Pack does not affect Movement Distance at all, just how it approaches some of Movement's interactions. It does add some optional movement in the Assault Phase, though.

It's been explained that way, but you have continued to ignore it. You would rather cherry-pick your rules and ignore the full context of their statements.

Ceann wrote:The basic rules are not "A model moves 6"

Error. The statement, "Models move up to 6" in the Movement Phase" can be found in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase rules. No instructions can be found in the Movement Distance to refer to the Unit Type to find a model's movement range.

Ceann wrote:The basic rules are...
Models & Units,
General Principals,
The Turn,
The Movement Phase, <Movement Distance can be found here, right at the beginning. Seriously, it is the very first subsection.
The Psychic Phase,
The Shooting Phase,
The Assault Phase,
And Morale.

Unit types merely tells you HOW a particular unit performs an action within one of those phases. It does not add any new phases, all phases have been discussed in the core rules section.

No, you are changing the location of a statement here. The Unit Type section never indicates this as a general rule for Unit Types. The Movement Phase does state that different unit types move in different ways, but it never tells us how, much less tell us to refer to them for their Movement Distance.

Ceann wrote:Unit types are the options for units within those phases.
Weaponry are the options for units within those phases.
Melee Weapons etc.
Psychic Powers etc.

If a model performs an action during any of those phases, those are basic rules and they apply to ALL MODELS.

Except the definition of Advance Rules states otherwise. The introduction to Unit Types states otherwise. The only thing that is saying this is you.

Between the book and another person, I usually lean on the book. Read my signature.>

Ceann wrote:
The basic rules are not "A model moves 6"

It is not THE basic rules, but it is A basic rule, found on page 18.

Ceann wrote:

The basic rules are...
Models & Units,
General Principals,
The Turn,
The Movement Phase,
The Psychic Phase,
The Shooting Phase,
The Assault Phase,
And Morale.

None of which answers my question - you are dodging.

Where is the end of the section called Core Rules?

Ceann wrote:
Unit types merely tells you HOW a particular unit performs an action within one of those phases. It does not add any new phases, all phases have been discussed in the core rules section.

It gives you specific new rules that override rules given in the basic section. Special rules give you specific new rules that override and/or modify rules in the basic section. Fleet, for example, lets you reroll running distance. But, running is a basic rule. Going by your standards, however, fleet would have to be a basic rule and not an advanced rule despite being a special rule because it tells you HOW a particular units performs running within that phase. Yet, we know that isn't true, so obviously your assumption that telling you how to perform an action in another section is still a basic rule, even if it overrides rules in the basic section.

Different units are given different movement rules that overwrite the basic rule of a unit moving 6". If all movement rules are basic rules, then how can these rules override the basic rule on page 18 that models move 6"? Where are we given permission for basic rules to override other basic rules?

Ceann wrote:
Unit types are the options for units within those phases.
Weaponry are the options for units within those phases.
Melee Weapons etc.
Psychic Powers etc.

If a model performs an action during any of those phases, those are basic rules and they apply to ALL MODELS.

Nope, sorry. Give us a rules quote to back up that statement. We've provided plenty of rules quotes and rules backings showing why the unit rules are advanced rules, yet you have not offered rules quotations to prove your assertiaon here.


So, again (and again and again and again), Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules. Therefore, wherever that section ends has to be where the basic rules end.

Ceann, let me ask you this. If I handed you a box, and told you that it contained everything you needed to make the best fruit salad you've ever tasted, would you assume things in the box labeled "garbage" are part of the ingredient list?

Charistoph

1. Already answered. Neither. It is not a rule. It is a piece of Wargear known as a Weapon. It carries rules as part of its aspect. Some are basic. Some may be advanced. It is the equivalent of saying is a Tactical Marine a basic rule or advanced rule.

Sure, I can agree with that.

2. Neither. It is a Psychic Power. It carries a butt-load of advanced rules, though. Some of which completely override its Witchfire nature.

I can agree with this as well.

3. Because they are stated to in several areas, including in the definition of Advanced Rules. Why do you ignore these statements, besides the fact that they do not agree with your paradigm?

Disagree, I have quoted for you before, and the deadtree version has the page numbers, telling you where to find the movement rules for non-infantry types. The first page of the movement section explicitly explains it will be only discussing infantry now and will discuss the others later.
There are many times throughout the core rules section that specifically references the other unit types and that they will be discussed layer. You ignore all of these out of hand in favor of "6". You are doing, the very thing, you are accusing me of doing.

4.Error. The statement, "Models move up to 6" in the Movement Phase" can be found in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase rules. No instructions can be found in the Movement Distance to refer to the Unit Type to find a model's movement range.

Disagree, same as 3. I will quote, please compare them.

THE MOVEMENT PHASE

"""For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section pg (61-71)."""

This statement takes place, FIRST THING, before Movement Distance is even mentioned.

"""So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. However, whilst the definition of
Infantry is incredibly broad it’s not enough to capture the full variety, scope and splendor of a war-torn galaxy teeming with all manner of alien beasts. In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry."""

Notice some relevant words here " For the time being, So far, as pertains to infantry, incredibly broad its not enough, extension of the characteristic profile.

5. No, you are changing the location of a statement here. The Unit Type section never indicates this as a general rule for Unit Types. The Movement Phase does state that different unit types move in different ways, but it never tells us how, much less tell us to refer to them for their Movement Distance.

Not sure what you mean, the statement I have quoted for the movement phase, is on the very first page of the movement phase, it exists even PRIOR to movement distance. We are told that they are going to explain the rules to us, using infantry.

6. Except the definition of Advance Rules states otherwise. The introduction to Unit Types states otherwise. The only thing that is saying this is you.

I can tell you up down and sideways what the Advanced Rules state. They DO NOT state, consult the Unit Types section, pull out a rubber stamp called "Advanced Rules" and put it on every page.



My questions for you.

1.Can a rule be a basic rule and an advance rule, simultaneously?

2. Why cannot a unit type, be to a unit profile, what wargear is, to a weapon profile. A combination of basic and advanced rules?

3. Does an Iron Halo have basic rules, or advanced rules?
Does a psyocculum have basic rules, or advanced rules?
4.
How do we determine which rules it carries?
- The rules for basic vs advanced only tell us about rules that apply to models and units.

Ceann, where in the "Core Rules" section, do the rules talk about how Calvary moves, and how far?

This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .

1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.

 Happyjew wrote:
Ceann, where in the "Core Rules" section, do the rules talk about how Calvary moves, and how far?

BRB Page 18.

Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).


A Chariot will move normally for a vehicle of their type.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .

1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Spoiler:

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).

The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.

1.Can a rule be a basic rule and an advance rule, simultaneously?

2. Why cannot a unit type, be to a unit profile, what wargear is, to a weapon profile. A combination of basic and advanced rules?

3. Does an Iron Halo have basic rules, or advanced rules?
Does a psyocculum have basic rules, or advanced rules?
4.
How do we determine which rules it carries?
- The rules for basic vs advanced only tell us about rules that apply to models and u

Ceann wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Ceann, where in the "Core Rules" section, do the rules talk about how Calvary moves, and how far?

BRB Page 18.

Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).


A Chariot will move normally for a vehicle of their type.

Cool. You just confirmed then that the movement rules for Calvary, etc. are not basic rules since the Core Rules section definitively says they are not in the Core Rules section by pointing to pg 61-71. That makes them advanced rules.

I figured I'd go back to your initial post.
Discussing from your point of view, which I strongly disagree with, so excuse me if I go off on a tangent here and there or get mixed up in what the actual rules are.

Ceann wrote:
Per recent discussions and in order to avoid spillover that seems likely to occur...

I have opened this to discuss the following.

Which rules are basic rules.

Which rules are advanced rules.

Which rules are special rules.

I would assert the following...

1. All basic rules are contained within the BRB.
a. The core rules section tells us how all of the basic rules function in action.
b. That all rules, not located in the Special Rules, section of the BRB, are basic rules.
c. The splash page for the Core Rules section tells us that it contains ALL basic rules.

B and C contradict themselves.
B claims that all rules other than the universal special rules are basic rules.
C claims to that all basic rules are contained in the core rules section.
The core rules section only goes to page 59 while the USR start at page 155.
That leaves almost a hundred pages unaccounted for.

2. All Special Rules or USR's are located in the Special rules section of the BRB.
a. The first page of the special rules section notates it presents ALL special rules.
b. This does state that the list is not exhaustive and that other special rules can be found in other documents, codex, datasheets.
c. I would assert that all special rules located within the BRB are indeed located in that section.
d. Datasheet point 10. Will state that all special rules located in a Codex will be found on the Army List Entry or Appendix for the codex, or located in the special rules section of the BRB.
d2. The above correlates what the BRB already states.

A is false, as you yourself state in B.
If the list is not exhaustive, then the USR section can't possibly contain all the special rules.
Not sure what you mean by datasheet point 10, but if you're referring to the snippet in "basic versus advanced", then that's not at all what it says.
It's telling you that the army list entry lists what advanced rules apply to the unit, not where they are or what they do.
Also if A is true, then codices can't contain a single special rule since they are all in the USR section.

3. All advanced rules are contained within codex's.
a. If you check the physical BRB for advanced rules it only provides you page 13. which is the Basic Vs Advanced box.
b. Basic vs advanced tells us "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex."
c. Basic vs advanced also tells us "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."
d. The only rules that pertain to SPECIFIC models are located in Codex's. Such as giving a model in a unit a relic, or giving a sargeant melta bombs, or a plasma pistol.


If you feel that any of these are incorrect, or that I have missed something that contradicts these assertions, feel free to point them out.

B and C are a quotes from the BRB, what's your point here exactly?
If your saying that advanced rules can only exist to override basic rules, that's not what that quote is saying.
It says that, in the case of a an advanced rule conflicting with a basic rule, the advanced rule takes precedence, no more , no less.
As for D, what about any of the universal special rules that only affect the model possessing said special rule. That's several pages worth of rules in the BRB right there.

Ceann wrote:


1.Can a rule be a basic rule and an advance rule, simultaneously?

Nope. Basic rule applies to all models (generic movement, generic shooting, generic assault, generic morale, infantry rules)

Advanced rules apply to specific models (specific model movement, specific model shooting, specific model assault, specific model rules for unit type)

Ceann wrote:
2. Why cannot a unit type, be to a unit profile, what wargear is, to a weapon profile. A combination of basic and advanced rules?

Any given statement might contain a mix of basic and advanced rules but no one rule is a combination of a basic rule and an advanced rule. Don't confuse a statement with a rule which is a component of a statement.

Ceann wrote:
3. Does an Iron Halo have basic rules, or advanced rules?
Does a psyocculum have basic rules, or advanced rules?

Those have advanced rules. It's easy to tell. Just ask yourself do all wargear grant 4++ invul saves? No. Then it has an advanced rule. Same with psyocculum.

Ceann wrote:
4.
How do we determine which rules it carries?
- The rules for basic vs advanced only tell us about rules that apply to models and u

The rules for advanced rules cover models equipped with specific wargear such as a boltgun. So advanced rules cover the case of models equipped with iron halos or psyocculum.




This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .

1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.

Ceann wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Ceann, where in the "Core Rules" section, do the rules talk about how Calvary moves, and how far?

BRB Page 18.

Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).


A Chariot will move normally for a vehicle of their type.

Who said anything about chariots? I want a specific quote from the Core Rules section that tells me how far a cavalry model can move. Don't give me a quote saying it's on another page. That does not tell me how far Cavalry can move. You said it is a basic rule, and ALL basic rules are found in the Core Rules section.

1.
B and C contradict themselves.
B claims that all rules other than the universal special rules are basic rules.
C claims to that all basic rules are contained in the core rules section.
The core rules section only goes to page 59 while the USR start at page 155.
That leaves almost a hundred pages unaccounted for.

Is a lasgun a basic rule or an advanced rule?
It is neither, it USES basic rules or advanced rules.
Is Unit Type a basic rule, or an advanced rule?
It is neither, it USES basic rules or advanced rules.
The "hundred unaccounted for pages" are references for Unit Types. Which all use the basic rules found in core rules.
Just like the Weaponry section is a reference for weapons.

2.
A is false, as you yourself state in B.
If the list is not exhaustive, then the USR section can't possibly contain all the special rules.
Not sure what you mean by datasheet point 10, but if you're referring to the snippet in "basic versus advanced", then that's not at all what it says.
It's telling you that the army list entry lists what advanced rules apply to the unit, not where they are or what they do.
Also if A is true, then codices can't contain a single special rule since they are all in the USR section.

A is true. ??? I am quoting what the BRB STATES
B is also true. ??? I am quoting what the BRB STATES
C. is true.
D. is true.

I said it contains all special rules LOCATED IN THE BRB.
You say you don't know what datasheet point is, if you open any codex and look at the descriptor page for what sections of a data sheet pertain too, you will find that the special rules section of any data sheet will tell you where to find special rules. It agrees with the same terms located in the first page of the Special Rules section. We have the BRB itself and Codex telling us that any rules located in the BRB are located in the Special rules section. Any other special rules, such as Chapter Tactics, or Canticles, will be found in their own Codex, which they are. You need to finish reading the sentence, the sentence doesn't end on the word exhaustive.
The only special rules that exist are noted in their codex, or in the Special Rules section of the BRB. Nowhere else.

3.
B and C are a quotes from the BRB, what's your point here exactly?
If your saying that advanced rules can only exist to override basic rules, that's not what that quote is saying.
It says that, in the case of a an advanced rule conflicting with a basic rule, the advanced rule takes precedence, no more , no less.
As for D, what about any of the universal special rules that only affect the model possessing said special rule. That's several pages worth of rules in the BRB right there.


Are you saying that advanced rules are all special rules?
If you are, then all special rules are located in the special rules section of the BRB, thereby with the process of elimination, there are no advanced rules in the BRB.

Are advanced rules and special rules the same thing or something different?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Ceann, where in the "Core Rules" section, do the rules talk about how Calvary moves, and how far?

BRB Page 18.

Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).


A Chariot will move normally for a vehicle of their type.

Who said anything about chariots? I want a specific quote from the Core Rules section that tells me how far a cavalry model can move. Don't give me a quote saying it's on another page. That does not tell me how far Cavalry can move. You said it is a basic rule, and ALL basic rules are found in the Core Rules section.

Oh sure. Sorry I thought you said Chariot, not Calvary.

Page 18 BRB.

In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to
their maximum movement distance.