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Oh and changing 40k scale is a dealbreaker in my book...
Sure you can play with your old miniatures, but what happens when you want new unit types and new models?

Changing the scale to invalidate 20+ years of space marine models is just............... [no words]

 Whirlwind wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No one knows as the 2nd General's Handbook hasn't been released yet. It could go either way.

What about the first one? Did they put up the rules (without fluff, art, explanations, etc) on their website for free after they released it?

Nope, you have to buy it (either physically or digitally).

Then in that case it is NOT an improvement. One purchase every five years vs a purchase at 2/3 the cost EVERY year for five years to keep updated is a step back in terms of actual barrier to playing. I hope they don't pull that gak and label it as somehow consumer friendly like they did with unbound and formations.

The general's handbooks cost 18$ for the PDF, 25 for the paper copy. The full 40k rule book was what 80? That's 3-4 GHBs for each 40k rulebook and the GHB is better for the game.

You are not really looking at over everything though. In the 2.0 years that AoS has been out you've had 14 battletomes at £25 each (approx), some for relatively pointless things like scenery etc (and are generally only for sub-factions). You've had a campaign series that totals £170. Then there is a core rulebook they have released (£45) and generals compendium. So if you want everything that's about £600 over the two years. Compare this to the assumption of a £50 rulebook and 12 Codexes/campaign styles of about £30 each then you are looking at £410. If you settle on just the core rules and the 40k compendium then yes it is more cost effective, but all these tomes do include special formations and rules etc. It's just the cost is drip fed more. There's now a larger proliferation in total rules in AoS than WFB ever had and the likelihood the same will happen in 40k. It's just that you don't need to use them all the time and the core rules are fairly basic at best.

And how many people buy ALL battletomes? You generally have 1, 2 or 3 armies per player so again it's.

The fact that you mention Mighty Battles in the Age of Sigmar just goes to show how little you know, same going for the realmgate wars, which are fore the campaigns, narrative play, not actual matches play rules.

Tsilber wrote:
I was in their corner for years, supported them for year. Making all current codexs non-compatible just breaks it for me.


Cmon GW, i thought you learned your lesson by now...

I'm not sure how you would have come to this conclusion while at the same time hoping for a realistic change instead of just yet another minor tweak. The current rules environment in 40k is so bloated that it would make a Greater Daemon of Nurgle jealous. A clean slate is IMO the only hope for this game but it won't help if GW just keeps treading water in the muck pit of endless mandatory in all but name supplemental rules purchases. If they keep drip feeding formations (or whatever they'll call them) a few pages at a time in every book to every faction then it'll all be for nothing though. They need to return to a simple one rules plus one codex system for armies with anything beyond that updated to the core free rules but released as a truly optional deluxe full featured fluff purchase. If they update the rules every year, the core rules free pdf should be updated to reflect that; the same goes with the army codex and follow up formations. I'm not keeping my fingers crossed but it's at least theoretically possible since plenty of other companies do exactly that.

 Draccan wrote:

People seem to miss an important fact:
The promised free core rules, but full rules have to be purchased. Core rules probably doesn't get you far.
And more important, the codexes are going away and replaced with cheap ones, but no where does it state that army lists and rules will now be online for free.

So unless that happens and they haven't stated that yet, the usual codex regurgitation and bloat will continue on and on...

In AoS - core rules are free
Unit rules are on their warscrolls - which is also free. If a unit does something, it's spelled out there.

There are no super secret squirrel maneuvers that are outlined in a specific book that, if you didn't have it, would break the game. Codex will mirror AoS BT's -- it will be army background, a unique formation, and a reprint of the warscroll for the unit. You could argue that the unique formation would be advantageous reason for buying the book -- however I've yet to ever run across a GW store that says you have to have the book to run the formation. Just print the gak out as ref (so you oppt know whats up) and go play.

 Draccan wrote:
Oh and changing 40k scale is a dealbreaker in my book...
Sure you can play with your old miniatures, but what happens when you want new unit types and new models?

Changing the scale to invalidate 20+ years of space marine models is just............... [no words]

They are making them proper size. Just use your current ones instead if it bothers you that much.

Im very happy about everything i read in the FAQ.

I also look forward to the 100 pages of crying and gnashing of teeth to come in this thread.

I'm probably going to start whatever army looks nicest in the starter box.

And keep going with my Death Guard.

So what do we know by now?
From all the infos I get from the site I see this "facts"

- new Edi is about Nu-Marines VS Nurgle
- 3 Alliances, and "Factions" are those stuff with their own model range and rules
- Custodes, SoS and SoB are in
- 3 ways to play are Unbound without points, Scenario/Campaign without points and play with points
-30k will still use 7th edi rules
- free basic rules, and everything old is use able, the same we heard with AoS and now without the Handbook and the Battledome the game is crap

so lets hope that the free basic rules have a better quality than the free basic rules for AoS

 Draccan wrote:
Oh and changing 40k scale is a dealbreaker in my book...
Sure you can play with your old miniatures, but what happens when you want new unit types and new models?

Changing the scale to invalidate 20+ years of space marine models is just............... [no words]

How in the feth do you make the leap from a picture that *all* the scale in 40K is changing?

Have you ever put 2nd edition model next to something current? Newsflash kiddo - the scale has been changing for years. Doesn't seem to stop anyone from buying and integrating things.

Are these large scale Marines the rumored next evolution of Marines that were mentioned some months back?

Didn't the rumor say that current Marines and the new Uber-Marines would be playable in the same army (regardless of how silly they might look side by side)?

I can't beleive that the new administration and creative team actually have the balls to pull off something like that.
I've been hoping for a tabula rasa for more than a year (The time I stopped playing due to utter chaos of the rules eccosystem) and now its happening!

Thank you New Game Workshop!

A little sad that the old codexes are gonna be invalid (just cuz I spent so much money on em), but everything else sounds good to me.

 ncshooter426 wrote:

In AoS - core rules are free
Unit rules are on their warscrolls - which is also free. If a unit does something, it's spelled out there.

There are no super secret squirrel maneuvers that are outlined in a specific book that, if you didn't have it, would break the game.

without the Handbook and the Battledome you miss important parts of the game
there are no secret manoeuvres in the books, but a lot of special rules and an army playing with the special stuff from the BT is always superior than one just build of the free Scrolls

and without the Handbook we are talking about stuff like large modes cannot attack small models in melee because 1" weapon range makes them miss everything small

 ncshooter426 wrote:

 Draccan wrote:
Oh and changing 40k scale is a dealbreaker in my book...
Sure you can play with your old miniatures, but what happens when you want new unit types and new models?

Changing the scale to invalidate 20+ years of space marine models is just............... [no words]

How in the feth do you make the leap from a picture that *all* the scale in 40K is changing?

Have you ever put 2nd edition model next to something current? Newsflash kiddo - the scale has been changing for years. Doesn't seem to stop anyone from buying and integrating things.

This , i have old marines and looks puppy next to the last. The world move up we cant pretend everythings remain the same through decades lol. and finally they seems right marine with mooooore better proportion than ever, love them

Umbros wrote:

For AOS you don't need to buy anything except the models to play the game. Yes, the GHB has the points in it, but you can use Scroll Builder for points (free) and that will even be hosted on GW's site soon.

The rules are included in every single book (except KO for some reason) and are freely available. All models come with rules/are freely available.

To suggest that situation and 40k are remotely comparable is insane. Yes you can buy the campaign books and the battle tomes. But that is completely optional. Unlike 40k.

Invalidating codexes is a bit unfortunate, but given that they will be supplying free rules for all units that seems like a bit much to complain about.

It's more of a comparison if you want everything. The AoS books cost for everything is significantly more expensive than what 40k is at the moment. Yes you can get things free (including the points) apart from the models, but then that doesn't include formations and so on. GW are banking that enough people just go out and buy enough of the books anyway to offset that they are proving the rules for free. The actual cost per unit provided in the AoS books is a lot higher simply because there are relatively few units per book included.

Also I'm not sure I have read that the new rules for the units will be free anywhere yet? Just that the old units will be covered by a couple of books we will have to purchase?

 ncshooter426 wrote:

These BT's are nothing more than background fluff, small painting guides, scenario and formations. The formations, and the actual scrolls, are available online. Anyone who wants to play one of the scenarios in a GW store just walks over and opens one of the books as needed, BT is not required. Most of the goodies come from the GHB these days anyway.

Then there is a core rulebook they have released (£45) and generals compendium.

Rulebook is also not required, and never really used. GHB is a whopping 25bones -- the cheapest printed doc you'll find - and it's actually USEFUL.

So all supplemental formations (the actual rules for factions/armies/whatever) are free online? That's not what was stated a few pages earlier when I asked about that. The answer was there are additional ways to buy the drip feed additions to your armies.

As for GHB being useful... I suppose the common reception to just how bad the core AOS army building rules were in random pick up game play sure helped in making a book that returned some semblance of common sense to the rules feel useful. That's not a high hurdle to jump over though.

 flakpanzer wrote:
Are these large scale Marines the rumored next evolution of Marines that were mentioned some months back?

Didn't the rumor say that current Marines and the new Uber-Marines would be playable in the same army (regardless of how silly they might look side by side)?

I think it`ll be the same, as playing tactical marines and terminators in the same army.

@Necros can`t really change the rules, if all the codexes must stay.
Besides, that`s what happened every time a new codex came out.

Love what I'm reading in the FAQ, and I actually hope they go all-out in Sigmar-fying 40k. 7e was an abomination that represented everything wrong with tabletop gaming, from overlong setup to rules bloat to needing a half dozen books per army.

I can't wait to see all the new army PDFs soon. I just hope the rules are more than 4 pages, though.

Draccan wrote:
People seem to miss an important fact:
The promised free core rules, but full rules have to be purchased. Core rules probably doesn't get you far.
And more important, the codexes are going away and replaced with cheap ones, but no where does it state that army lists and rules will now be online for free.

So unless that happens and they haven't stated that yet, the usual codex regurgitation and bloat will continue on and on...

Free core rules gets you further than before. Before this, there was no way to play without buying a rulebook and a codex. Now, you can at least play with just a codex, which is apparently cheaper.

Again, it outright says the CORE rules will be online for free. That's more than before. It's better than any other edition change, where you'd ALSO need to buy a whole new codex and rulebook. Codexes are also cheaper, apparently, so at least the codex bloat will be cheaper than what it is now.

It's a straight upgrade, unless you didn't want 7th to change - in which case, stay in 7th.

Draccan wrote:Oh and changing 40k scale is a dealbreaker in my book...
Sure you can play with your old miniatures, but what happens when you want new unit types and new models?

Changing the scale to invalidate 20+ years of space marine models is just............... [no words]

You can still use your old models. They'll just be a bit shorter, but they are still Space Marines.

If you want old models and unit types, then this isn't a new problem. I can't get the same Assault Marines, Devastators or Tacticals as when I started - it's not new at all.

Tsilber wrote:
I was in their corner for years, supported them for year. Making all current codexs non-compatible just breaks it for me.


Cmon GW, i thought you learned your lesson by now...

This has happened practically every edition. If the rules change, then of course they need to be redone.
If a move stat was added to the game, or weapons become fundamentally different (Rend mechanics) then it would be negligent not to redo them.

The game needs an overhaul, and if it's to be overhauled, the codexes would need to be modified to the new format. It's not new at all. Codexes had to be redone after 5th because of Hull Points and Psychic Powers becoming it's own phase. When were you in GW's corner - it must have been post-5th edition then, because all 5th codexes were incompatible after 6th.

I am happy 30k is uneffected would be miffed that Inferno is obsolite after waiting for years!

I am happy 40k will be more streamlined I just hope they dont go down the route of fixed to hit and to wound rolls as that is easily the worst thing about AoS.

Mitochondria wrote:The GW fanboy white knights are out in force today.

Keep giving them your money and time, suckers.

It's my wallet, and I'll vote with it.
If I like what I see, then who is anyone to judge what I spend it on?

If you like or dislike it, vote with your wallet.

Mitochondria wrote:
The GW fanboy white knights are out in force today.

Keep giving them your money and time, suckers.

Cool. If you have nothing useful to contribute to this thread, get out.

I find it hilarious that pointing out the flaws in someone's insanely falsified pricing comparison makes one a fanboy white knight.

Pistols at Dawn wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Oh God they're Sigmar-ifying it.

3 factions, 3 ways to play, making it "easier for new players to enter" (i.e. less depth to the rules), invalidating codices...

I'm going to need to be proved wrong and seriously impressed to continue in the hobby here. I'll be graduating soon and looking for jobs and my own place, and could do with a convenient excuse to not spend money on wargaming.

TBH, there's no real depth to 40k currently. All the choices are made in the list-building. When it comes down to it, despite the million special rules/formations, etc, when your minis are on the board your choices are 'Who do I shoot at/charge next?'.

Ok so, currently "who do I shoot at next" involves you taking into account several different saves; different types of weapons, and whether you moved them or not; whether you or the target is in combat; the armour save, AP, toughness and strength of various units which you need to take into account to judge which unit is best shot by which unit and numerous rules like Gets Hot, Pinning, Stealth, Ignores Cover. Under and AoS like system, your bolters will wound anything from a termagant to a carnifex on a 3+ and you can shoot at literally anything you can see and that's in range, regardless of combat (which is stupid) and regardless of whether you moved and what weapon you're carrying.

"Who do I charge next", you have to consider units that are in cover and the potential of hitting at I1; grenades; overwatch; how your shooting affects any charge you attempt; whether it would be better to run, do a jetpack move or whether you used your jump pack already this turn; multiple charges and their advantages and disadvantages and, again, multiple special rules like Hammer of Wrath, Furious Charge, Hit and Run. Under an AoS system you can charge whoever is in range regardless of moving/shooting and, apart from it being your turn and being able to activate a unit first, there's not really any advantage to getting the charge outside of select units.

Yes 40k is hardly the most in-depth game in existence, but I don't want it stooping to AoS' levels.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Oh God they're Sigmar-ifying it.

3 factions, 3 ways to play, making it "easier for new players to enter" (i.e. less depth to the rules), invalidating codices...

I'm going to need to be proved wrong and seriously impressed to continue in the hobby here. I'll be graduating soon and looking for jobs and my own place, and could do with a convenient excuse to not spend money on wargaming.

What? Of course frigging not. Those are the classisfications we've always had: it's always been imperium, chaos and xenos, not actual formal factions.

So if I want to play Deathwatch I now have to buy a book for EVERY SINGLE imperial army and unit, and deal with having to lug that around or scroll through all the unnecessary pages. Codex: Deathwatch is a very slim, streamlined book, but no, now I would need to buy the equivalent of several codices to use them. And what's to distinguish them from any other imperial army? Gone are the individual background info, and, probably, army-wide special rules. We'll know have faction-wide rules and warlord traits. Until they release an over-expensive battletome for half an army that is.

Mitochondria wrote:

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

Mitochondria wrote:
The GW fanboy white knights are out in force today.

Keep giving them your money and time, suckers.

Hi, thanks for your input!

Terribly sorry, that some of us (including myself) enjoy products by GW and are hopeful.
I hope you have a good weekend!

Hope is all you have because you are most certainly not getting quality gaming materials.

This will be the what...third new edition in four years? With new codexes and splat books every time?

Ha ha

It seems better than the other two editions. Free rules is a good start at least.
Nothing has changed, except that it appears to be cheaper, and more streamlined.

If that's a bad thing, then you don't need to take part in it. You may have fun on your own terms, and leave others to have theirs.

Pistols at Dawn wrote:
So these True-Scale chappies mean they'll have to re-do all the transports, bikes, assault marines, devastators, etc, etc to match up?

I'm curious about this myself. A complete upgrade of the marine-range seems unlikely, it's to big for that. So the new marines are probably a new unit rather than true-scale tacticals.

Except they don't really look "special" enough. They look exactly like true-scale tacticals and appear to be painted like that. So, yes I'm curious about what they really are and how they will impact the existing range.

Mitochondria wrote:

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

Mitochondria wrote:
The GW fanboy white knights are out in force today.

Keep giving them your money and time, suckers.

Hi, thanks for your input!

Terribly sorry, that some of us (including myself) enjoy products by GW and are hopeful.
I hope you have a good weekend!

Hope is all you have because you are most certainly not getting quality gaming materials.

This will be the what...third new edition in four years? With new codexes and splat books every time?

Ha ha

Oh, I know you! You`re the FFG promoter dude Welcome! I hope you have a good time here, in a 40k thread proving to us, what idiots we are!

Anyway, I hope the New Starter is not just arines, but I might still be tempted, if minis are good: like the ones we`ve seen from Death Guard teaser (Assuming there are DG in th new strter box)

They had me at

Come on! This is New Games Workshop™

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Will existing armies have the same "neigh like a pony for a reroll" rules that they put in the AoS rules?

Those have all been removed. Keep beating that dead horse though.

Pythagoras wrote:Another dumb reset button? That isn't what we needed. The current level of complexity wasn't complex. Just too many people who lack the will to put any effort into their hobby.

40k 7th edition is terrible, it desperately needs a reset. How cool Grimdark is (pretty sure this is why 40k is still popular, despite the terrible rules) isn't going to keep people interested forever.

 Draccan wrote:
Oh and changing 40k scale is a dealbreaker in my book...
Sure you can play with your old miniatures, but what happens when you want new unit types and new models?

Changing the scale to invalidate 20+ years of space marine models is just............... [no words]

Your models from 20 years ago look like s**t. Your models from 4 years ago look like deformed midgets compared to deathwatch marines.

Tear that bandage off now.

 ncshooter426 wrote:
You could argue that the unique formation would be advantageous reason for buying the book -- however I've yet to ever run across a GW store that says you have to have the book to run the formation. Just print the gak out as ref (so you oppt know whats up) and go play.

So if you're not buying the book, how are you to "just print the gak out as ref"? I don't think promoting piracy as the free GW in store rules option is the point.