Warhammer 40,000 new edition announced & new site ; UPDATE 28/04 Psychic Phase

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**Daedalus81**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Here's what concerns me about those weapon stats:

"Bespoke rules"

So are bolters going to differ from army to army? From unit to unit? Those are the Flamer rules, but are they the Flamer rules, or the Adeptus Astartes Tactical Squad Flamer rules? Is a unit going to have a Flamer that's called a Flamer, but it does D6+1 hits because of some bespoke rule the unit has?

The less you centralise (like an armoury), the more things you have with the same name but different rules.

Could be a simple armory and then units like Rubrics could have a bespoke rule that their boltguns and flamers have rend of 1. The weapons will probably be on the scroll anyway.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azreal13 wrote:
I think psykers will have their powers, what they do and how/when they are cast on their data cards, and that'll be that.

Oh god please no.

**Nvs**

It would certainly be better than the completely random system we have now.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Please just let us choose our powers. Even if we have to pay for them.

**casvalremdeikun**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Please just let us choose our powers. Even if we have to pay for them.

This. I hate rolling for powers. If they made it so you picked your powers it would speed up the pregame as well. They did say that they made significant changes to the psychic system, so I have hopes for something good to come out of it.

**privateer4hire**

In the recent AoS battletomes, you have the option of assigning certain powers (for Sigmarine leaders, for example) OR rolling for them, at the player's option.

**Galas**

Different Psychic powers that you can pick and with different point costs will be great.

**dosiere**

Getting rid of all the pre-game nonsense would save a lot of time, and for no loss. Since it sounds like the mechanics of the game aren't really getting faster (if anything it sounds like more dice to roll, wounds to track, etc..) I hope they make setup as fast as possible.

**Azreal13**

Not only have they said it is faster to play, they've put a number on it.

**amanita**

Not having read the whole thread so my apologies if this has been discussed, but if a weapon such as a lascannon does D6 hits/wounds is it then possible to kill up to 6 space marines with a single shot? If so, is there a point to having blast weapons? Just curious, as I'm barely catching up on the latest rumors.

**Daedalus81**

amanita wrote:
Not having read the whole thread so my apologies if this has been discussed, but if a weapon such as a lascannon does D6 hits/wounds is it then possible to kill up to 6 space marines with a single shot? If so, is there a point to having blast weapons? Just curious, as I'm barely catching up on the latest rumors.

No - there are no damage spillovers.

**Sinful Hero**

amanita wrote:
Not having read the whole thread so my apologies if this has been discussed, but if a weapon such as a lascannon does D6 hits/wounds is it then possible to kill up to 6 space marines with a single shot? If so, is there a point to having blast weapons? Just curious, as I'm barely catching up on the latest rumors.

A Lascannon will hit one model and deal d6 wounds to it. A flamer will hit d6 models and deal 1 wound to each.

**amanita**

Ah, thanks!

**H.B.M.C.**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Could be a simple armory and then units like Rubrics could have a bespoke rule that their boltguns and flamers have rend of 1. The weapons will probably be on the scroll anyway.

In 12 pages? I doubt it.

And yeah, I figured they'd be on the scroll, but that's the problem. The more and more bespoke rules everyone gets, the more of a mess it becomes and we just get 7th in a different format. It we then add to that the possibility that the same weapons will have different rules between armies or, worse, between unit types in the same army, and they retain the same name... good God keeping track of that will be difficult.

"I'm using my flamer!" should never be met "What type of flamer?". There should be exactly one type of flamer, that does one thing and one thing only and is consistent. You can then have a hand flamer, a heavy flamer, a super-duper flamer and so on, but two units with Flamers should have the same rules for said flamers.

casvalremdeikun wrote:
This. I hate rolling for powers. If they made it so you picked your powers it would speed up the pregame as well. They did say that they made significant changes to the psychic system, so I have hopes for something good to come out of it.

NO! Rolling for powers helps you to better Forge a Narrative!

**MacPhail**

amanita wrote:
Not having read the whole thread

In the same spirit, I can't keep up with the posting rate and I've missed some leaked details. I know what's in the FAQ and on the community page. Is someone (Dakka, BoLS, B&C, etc.) compiling blurry photos of half-pages with somebody's thumb over the important table? I'd love to see them all in one place without weeding through pages of alternating bitterness and giddiness.

**BrotherGecko**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
BrotherGecko wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
insaniak wrote:
Hollow wrote:
I just think it's funny is all. I find it hard to wrap my head around the mentality that someone would describe the purchase of a miniature as a "waste of money" due to rules.

If you're buying that miniature specifically as a gaming piece, then the rules changing that miniature from being something that you want to use to something that you don't want to use make it a waste of money.

It's not really all that complicated.
Hell, it even makes modelling miniatures that are already owned into a gamble. I am asking myself with everything I have "What can I build that won't possibly be invalidated as a legitimate option in the new rules?". So far, that has been a Vindicator and two Drop Pods. I might make the bodies of many of my Skitarii walkers (Donkeytank and Ironstriders), but I will have to freeze once the weapon options would go on. I have two Stalker tanks to build as well, so I guess I won't be gluing their tops on in case the Hunter suddenly outclasses them significantly. But infantry building is pretty well completely off the table for the time being. And that really stinks because those are the things I actually want to work on right now. I could build my two Venerable Dreadnoughts since all their weapon options short of the Flamer and Storm Bolter pop on and off anyway. I might actually field them now too.

Did I miss something that made the Vindicator invalidated in 8th edition? You are making me nervous.
No. The Vindicator only really has one option as far as I am concerned, whether or not to have a Storm Bolter. So I am not worried about the Vindicator because there really is only one way to build it. And I think it is probably going to have some pretty awesome rules (maybe 24" Heavy 2d6 Str 10 W1, which would be pretty sweet). It was one model that I felt safe assembling.

Okay, I has worried I missed something.

**Daedalus81**

H.B.M.C. wrote:

In 12 pages? I doubt it.

And yeah, I figured they'd be on the scroll, but that's the problem. The more and more bespoke rules everyone gets, the more of a mess it becomes and we just get 7th in a different format. It we then add to that the possibility that the same weapons will have different rules between armies or, worse, between unit types in the same army, and they retain the same name... good God keeping track of that will be difficult.

"I'm using my flamer!" should never be met "What type of flamer?". There should be exactly one type of flamer, that does one thing and one thing only and is consistent. You can then have a hand flamer, a heavy flamer, a super-duper flamer and so on, but two units with Flamers should have the same rules for said flamers.

It's not such a big deal if the scrolls are freely available. Right now you have to buy a book or pirate it to learn another army's capabilities. AoS excels tremendously at this -- I have all the scrolls for all armies loaded on my phone. When I change opponents I add all their units to my battle and I scroll through the ones I don't see too often.

**mhsellwood**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Could be a simple armory and then units like Rubrics could have a bespoke rule that their boltguns and flamers have rend of 1. The weapons will probably be on the scroll anyway.

In 12 pages? I doubt it.

And yeah, I figured they'd be on the scroll, but that's the problem. The more and more bespoke rules everyone gets, the more of a mess it becomes and we just get 7th in a different format. It we then add to that the possibility that the same weapons will have different rules between armies or, worse, between unit types in the same army, and they retain the same name... good God keeping track of that will be difficult.

"I'm using my flamer!" should never be met "What type of flamer?". There should be exactly one type of flamer, that does one thing and one thing only and is consistent. You can then have a hand flamer, a heavy flamer, a super-duper flamer and so on, but two units with Flamers should have the same rules for said flamers.

Have you played 7th edition? Because it is already the case that flamers are not the same from army to army. Salamander flamers are not the same as other Space Marine flamers, and Ork flamers are different, and in 30K Death Guard flamers are different, and Thousand Son flamers are different, and the Pyrovore flamer is different, and the Heldrakes Baleflamer is different to any other flamer.

You already basically have bespoke rules - the difference going forwards is that instead of being littered across multiple locations, they will be there on your unit entry / warscroll to easily refer to/

**dosiere**

I assumed, seeing that there are weapon profiles, that the weapons rules would stay consistent across the game. Obviously they could add special rules that alter it for each unit, but in that case why create standard weapon profiles in the first place? that would actually be more complicated than just having a different weapon profile for every unit.

**Red Corsair**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Please just let us choose our powers. Even if we have to pay for them.
This. I hate rolling for powers. If they made it so you picked your powers it would speed up the pregame as well. They did say that they made significant changes to the psychic system, so I have hopes for something good to come out of it.

I hope they just give each armies spell casters a few powers on their card and leave it at that. Actually, I am pretty certain that is how it will work. It's the cleanest way but more importantly it's the only way they are balancing them. I can see certain powers being available to anyone, I think in AOS there are community chest type spells like mystic shield or arcane bolt, then each caster has his own special ones. I can see force and probably some sort of mind bullet being available to anyone with each slate having its own bespoke powers.

**Daedalus81**

dosiere wrote:
I assumed, seeing that there are weapon profiles, that the weapons rules would stay consistent across the game. Obviously they could add special rules that alter it for each unit, but in that case why create standard weapon profiles in the first place? that would actually be more complicated than just having a different weapon profile for every unit.

If you have a unit and all it's rules in one page then you don't need to go flipping into a big book to remember what you may have forgotten.

Here is an annoying example. I can find the things I need to know about the Forgefiend scattered across 3 pages. Unfortunately if I forgot what phase IWND occurs in, if Daemon has any stipulations, or how to apply Fleet I have to go to another 1-2 pages in a separate book.

Or I could just have everything I need for it on one page.

**Carnikang**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Could be a simple armory and then units like Rubrics could have a bespoke rule that their boltguns and flamers have rend of 1. The weapons will probably be on the scroll anyway.

In 12 pages? I doubt it.

And yeah, I figured they'd be on the scroll, but that's the problem. The more and more bespoke rules everyone gets, the more of a mess it becomes and we just get 7th in a different format. It we then add to that the possibility that the same weapons will have different rules between armies or, worse, between unit types in the same army, and they retain the same name... good God keeping track of that will be difficult.

"I'm using my flamer!" should never be met "What type of flamer?". There should be exactly one type of flamer, that does one thing and one thing only and is consistent. You can then have a hand flamer, a heavy flamer, a super-duper flamer and so on, but two units with Flamers should have the same rules for said flamers.

? But Why? A unit of Pyrovores isn't actually shooting flame, as they are using an acid spray that acts as a Flamer Template.

An Imperial Guard flamer is usually smaller, less complicated, and cheaper than a space marine flamer.

A Chaos Flamer could quite literally have any number of special rules as it could be a warped daemon flamer, rather than a normal flamer.

Do Tau have flamers? Cause if they do, I'm sure they'd put a special sciency flavor to it.

There are so many ways to literally throw fire at an enemy. Perhaps having special rules to differentiate them wouldn't be such a bad idea.

**ERJAK**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Could be a simple armory and then units like Rubrics could have a bespoke rule that their boltguns and flamers have rend of 1. The weapons will probably be on the scroll anyway.

In 12 pages? I doubt it.

And yeah, I figured they'd be on the scroll, but that's the problem. The more and more bespoke rules everyone gets, the more of a mess it becomes and we just get 7th in a different format. It we then add to that the possibility that the same weapons will have different rules between armies or, worse, between unit types in the same army, and they retain the same name... good God keeping track of that will be difficult.

"I'm using my flamer!" should never be met "What type of flamer?". There should be exactly one type of flamer, that does one thing and one thing only and is consistent. You can then have a hand flamer, a heavy flamer, a super-duper flamer and so on, but two units with Flamers should have the same rules for said flamers.

casvalremdeikun wrote:
This. I hate rolling for powers. If they made it so you picked your powers it would speed up the pregame as well. They did say that they made significant changes to the psychic system, so I have hopes for something good to come out of it.

NO! Rolling for powers helps you to better Forge a Narrative!

The issue you're having is you're applying USR logic to a bespoke system. Having 100 different flamers in a USR style systen is a$$ because you have to learn all of them, with bespoke rules you never need to remember more than the one you're using.

I've rolled up to the table with units I never even looked at before in Sigmar and learned how to play them in less then a minute. Bespoke rules seem scary because they seem like the SHOULD be more complicated and bloaty but in practice they're much easier to digest.

**cuda1179**

So.... If flamers hit automatically, will high strength flamers be the best anti-aircraft weapon in the game? That just seems wrong on so many levels.

**BrianDavion**

Carnikang wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Could be a simple armory and then units like Rubrics could have a bespoke rule that their boltguns and flamers have rend of 1. The weapons will probably be on the scroll anyway.

In 12 pages? I doubt it.

And yeah, I figured they'd be on the scroll, but that's the problem. The more and more bespoke rules everyone gets, the more of a mess it becomes and we just get 7th in a different format. It we then add to that the possibility that the same weapons will have different rules between armies or, worse, between unit types in the same army, and they retain the same name... good God keeping track of that will be difficult.

"I'm using my flamer!" should never be met "What type of flamer?". There should be exactly one type of flamer, that does one thing and one thing only and is consistent. You can then have a hand flamer, a heavy flamer, a super-duper flamer and so on, but two units with Flamers should have the same rules for said flamers.

? But Why? A unit of Pyrovores isn't actually shooting flame, as they are using an acid spray that acts as a Flamer Template.

An Imperial Guard flamer is usually smaller, less complicated, and cheaper than a space marine flamer.

A Chaos Flamer could quite literally have any number of special rules as it could be a warped daemon flamer, rather than a normal flamer.

Do Tau have flamers? Cause if they do, I'm sure they'd put a special sciency flavor to it.

There are so many ways to literally throw fire at an enemy. Perhaps having special rules to differentiate them wouldn't be such a bad idea.

well then you get to the complaint, people had, rightly or wrongly, about the rules being bloated with special case rules for every army. it's neither a good nor bad thing

**GodDamUser**

cuda1179 wrote:
So.... If flamers hit automatically, will high strength flamers be the best anti-aircraft weapon in the game? That just seems wrong on so many levels.

That is a big call.. considering you have no idea what the rules for flyers are

**alextroy**

Didn't they already say there will still be a Psychic Phase?

Hopefully they will follow the AOS model for spells on Psychic Powers:
1) A few standard powers everyone knows
2) A set of powers for each 'faction' its psychers choose from
3) All powers used in one phase
4) powers cast with a 2d6 roll with a set target for each power (the stronger the power the higher the target)

**Galas**

If somebody try to use a flamer to hit a aircraft, a rule should exist to make the fire fall on him and roast itself

**casvalremdeikun**

cuda1179 wrote:
So.... If flamers hit automatically, will high strength flamers be the best anti-aircraft weapon in the game? That just seems wrong on so many levels.

Assuming Flamers can hit flyers at all.

**ERJAK**

cuda1179 wrote:
So.... If flamers hit automatically, will high strength flamers be the best anti-aircraft weapon in the game? That just seems wrong on so many levels.

Flyer rules are gone as we know them, they mentioned it in the Q&A.

**H.B.M.C.**

mhsellwood wrote:
Have you played 7th edition? Because it is already the case that flamers are not the same from army to army. Salamander flamers are not the same as other Space Marine flamers, and Ork flamers are different, and in 30K Death Guard flamers are different, and Thousand Son flamers are different, and the Pyrovore flamer is different, and the Heldrakes Baleflamer is different to any other flamer.

You just misread everything I said.

Orks don't have flamers. They have Burners. It's a different weapon, it has different rules. The Heldrake doesn't have a flamer. It has a "Baleflamer" (if that's what it's called). It's a different weapon, it has different rules.

What I'm talking about is having two units with a 'Flamer' where the flamers are different. Or perhaps the 'Burner' that a Boyz Kommando unit gets is different to a 'Burner' that a Burner Boyz unit can get, despite being both called 'Burners'. Or two units with a 'Baleflamer', yet the Baleflamers on each have different rules despite looking like the same gun.

Or two Lascannons having different rules. Or two bolters. Or two Pulse Rifles. Or two Volcano cannons. And so on and so on.

Get it?