Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm hoping for two things. Stop letting armies get free units. I like my space wolf dreads to be at least a little threat.

I hope tomorrow they cover also the to wound chart.

 thenewgozoku wrote:
I hope tomorrow they cover also the to wound chart.

They said Friday that tomorrow is the Shooting phase. Whether that covers the specifics of the To Wound chart (if there is one) is unknown...

yellowfever wrote:
I'm hoping for two things. Stop letting armies get free units. I like my space wolf dreads to be at least a little threat.

The dreadnought have 8 wounds. Isn't that twice the wounds of a carnifex? That's pretty durable.

Hello.

I would like to put out some arguments on vehicle resiliency. I will take the dreadnought as an example because we have his statline obviously.

Let's assume that scatter laser, a typical medium strength spammable weapon, a favourite in 7th ed will get its stats (S:6 AP:6 heavy 4) converted to this :
S:6 Rend 0 heavy 4.
probability to strip a HP in 7th ed : 2/3 * 1/6 = 1/9 per shot which leads to an expected value of 3/(1/9) = 27 shots ; or 6.75 volleys at BS:4 for vehicle destruction.
probability to strip a HP in 8th ed : 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 2/27 per shot wich leads to an expected value of 8/(2/27) = 108 shots ; or 27 volleys at BS 3+ for vehicle destruction.
300 % more hits needed, the survivability is massively improved.

But...
Let's take a look as lascannon now, @ BS 4.
It is difficult to calculate the expected value of hits to destroy a dreadnought in 7th edition because of the duality of stripping HP one by one and risk of sudden explosion.
To avoid the pain of building an obnoxious spread sheet let's assume this approximation : @ AP2 on a on the damage table you count 3 HP instead of 1.
probability of removing 3 HP via penetrating hits : 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6 = 1/18
probability of removing 1 HP : 2/3 * 1/6 (glancing hits) + 2/3 * 1/2 * 5/6 (non explosive penetrating hits) = 7/18
expected value of HP per shot : 3*1/18 + 7/18 = 10/18 ; so to remove 3 you will need 3 / (10/18) = 5.40 lascannon shots approximately.

Now in 8th edition, it's simpler.
Each lascannon shot fired @ BS 3+ has 2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 50/108 probability of applying damage. Each damage has a mean value of 3.5 HP removed.
So to remove all 8 HP of the dreadnought you need : 8 / (3.5 * 50/108) = 4.94 lascannon shots approximately.

As you can see, in this case, because of the introduction of multiple damage and lowering of T value of the dreadnought, his survivability is somewhat lowered in 8th edition.

Only when faced with dedicated anti tank weapons, which is exactly how it should be. And by your own maths the difference is only slight. 0.46 is OK by me.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Hello.

I would like to put out some arguments on vehicle resiliency. I will take the dreadnought as an example because we have his statline obviously.

Let's assume that scatter laser, a typical medium strength spammable weapon, a favourite in 7th ed will get its stats (S:6 AP:6 heavy 4) converted to this :
S:6 Rend 0 heavy 4.
probability to strip a HP in 7th ed : 1/6 which leads to an expected value of 3/(1/6) = 18 hits ; or 6.75 volleys at BS:4 for vehicle destruction.
probability to strip a HP in 8th ed : 1/9 wich leads to an expected value of 8/(1/9) = 72 hits ; or 27 volleys at BS 3+ for vehicle destruction.
300% more hits needed, the survivability is massively improved.

But...
Let's take a look as lascannon now, @ BS 4.
It is difficult to calculate the expected value of hits to destroy a dreadnought in 7th edition because of the duality of stripping HP one by one and risk of sudden explosion.
To avoid the pain of building an obnoxious spread sheet let's assume this approximation : @ AP2 on a on the damage table you count 3 HP instead of 1.
probability of removing 3 HP via penetrating hits : 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6 = 1/18
probability of removing 1 HP : 2/3 * 1/6 (glancing hits) + 2/3 * 1/2 * 5/6 (non explosive penetrating hits) = 7/18
expected value of HP per shot : 3*1/18 + 7/18 = 10/18 ; so to remove 3 you will need 3 / (10/18) = 5.40 lascannon shots approximately.

Now in 8th edition, it's simpler.
Each lascannon shot fired @ BS 3+ has 2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 50/108 probability of applying damage. Each damage has a mean value of 3.5 HP removed.
So to remove all 8 HP of the dreadnought you need : 8 / (3.5 * 50/108) = 4.94 lascannon shots approximately.

As you can see, in this case, because of the introduction of multiple damage and lowering of T value of the dreadnought, his survivability is somewhat lowered in 8th edition.

I don't know about everyone else, but to me this seems perfect. The dread is more resiliant to mid-strength weapons, but a tank busting Lascannon is now fit for purpose. You no longer have a one-weapon-fits-all situation - you need the right tool for the job. I like this

Are we already mathhammering before the new edition comes out? What ever happened for playing for fun and not finding the ultamite build? Right now before it even started the edition is broken because people are not looking for what is fun, but what can be exploited.

CoreCommander wrote:Trust me (or don't, whatever ) it plays well enough now and will probably play even better with the new rules... it just won't be a truly great and outstanding gaming system and that's a shame.

I agree. I would have loved to see an outstanding game, but then after the last 20 or so years of third edition, anything is better than keep upgrading (or downgrading) third edition. Nice to see a clear cut change and an actual new edition instead of "upgrades".

That said, I didn't think I could be excited especially when it seems to be molded after Age of Sigmar, but I am looking forward to it. Past experience shows me not to get excited but I am looking forward to it where before I thought there would be no hope for a new edition and would be crap old third edition. So I am liking the changes I see. I just hope it plays well and people can actually have fun instead of trying to win with plastic toy soldiers.

I want to play like a kid and have fun not be a make believe sports jock. Hopefully this new edition caters to both sides and people can have fun or be competitive if they so choose so.

Corrected some minor mistakes in first calculation.

Yes I'm perfectly in line with the changes, this seems good to rebalance the game.
But I wanted to point out that the idea that vehicles will be tougher against all threats is not true.

 Lockark wrote:

yellowfever wrote:
I'm hoping for two things. Stop letting armies get free units. I like my space wolf dreads to be at least a little threat.

The dreadnought have 8 wounds. Isn't that twice the wounds of a carnifex? That's pretty durable.

Expect said carnifex to have close to 10 wounds in this edition.
STR 6-7 weapons will be there to murder heavy infantry and to support in tank/MC hunting. They will no longer be the main stay of fire power.

Which leads to another point; it might now be feasible to use mixed weapons in squads. Especially if they use the targeting system of AoS too. No longer will you be able to just spam one type of weapon that's good at killing everything. Now you'll need to mix things up. And everyone in the same squad can select their own ideal target. Just like in real life. And that would be awesome.

 Whittlesey40k wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Hello.

I would like to put out some arguments on vehicle resiliency. I will take the dreadnought as an example because we have his statline obviously.

Let's assume that scatter laser, a typical medium strength spammable weapon, a favourite in 7th ed will get its stats (S:6 AP:6 heavy 4) converted to this :
S:6 Rend 0 heavy 4.
probability to strip a HP in 7th ed : 1/6 which leads to an expected value of 3/(1/6) = 18 hits ; or 6.75 volleys at BS:4 for vehicle destruction.
probability to strip a HP in 8th ed : 1/9 wich leads to an expected value of 8/(1/9) = 72 hits ; or 27 volleys at BS 3+ for vehicle destruction.
300% more hits needed, the survivability is massively improved.

But...
Let's take a look as lascannon now, @ BS 4.
It is difficult to calculate the expected value of hits to destroy a dreadnought in 7th edition because of the duality of stripping HP one by one and risk of sudden explosion.
To avoid the pain of building an obnoxious spread sheet let's assume this approximation : @ AP2 on a on the damage table you count 3 HP instead of 1.
probability of removing 3 HP via penetrating hits : 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6 = 1/18
probability of removing 1 HP : 2/3 * 1/6 (glancing hits) + 2/3 * 1/2 * 5/6 (non explosive penetrating hits) = 7/18
expected value of HP per shot : 3*1/18 + 7/18 = 10/18 ; so to remove 3 you will need 3 / (10/18) = 5.40 lascannon shots approximately.

Now in 8th edition, it's simpler.
Each lascannon shot fired @ BS 3+ has 2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 50/108 probability of applying damage. Each damage has a mean value of 3.5 HP removed.
So to remove all 8 HP of the dreadnought you need : 8 / (3.5 * 50/108) = 4.94 lascannon shots approximately.

As you can see, in this case, because of the introduction of multiple damage and lowering of T value of the dreadnought, his survivability is somewhat lowered in 8th edition.

I don't know about everyone else, but to me this seems perfect. The dread is more resiliant to mid-strength weapons, but a tank busting Lascannon is now fit for purpose. You no longer have a one-weapon-fits-all situation - you need the right tool for the job. I like this

Why is this perfect? Dreads were virtually useless in the last FIVE editions of the game. The logic escapes me of something being "fine" if an already terrible unit being LESS resilient.

For some reason it seems as if the general 40k population is traumatized by The Wraithlord Syndrome (TWS) where as T8 is somehow too powerful. A T7 dreadnought is an actual downgrade from AV12 (ignoring the 6 to wound everything rule in 8th). If MC's like Trygons are 12+ wounds that'll be even more absurd compared to Dreadnoughts.

If a hypothetical unit is 30% worse than another unit it needs a (difference +50%) buff to be equal.

There is so much we don't yet know about dreadnoughts:

1. We don't know what special rules the may have or if they have any specific rules for previously being a vehicle.

2. We don't know how much a dreadnought costs compared to other units. They may be much more cost effective in this edition if not stronger.

3. We know very little of the stats for the dread's armaments (only the lascannon so far), which could still leave the possibility that it could be an effective shooting platform or a melee monster.

In other words, wait and see.

 Kirasu wrote:
2nd edition isn't current 40k (which started in 3rd Ed) and no they weren't good in 4th. There hasn't been an instance where n av12 dreadnought​ has been useful except for grey knights in 5th.

You cannot compare rogue trader to anything else, as it was more like a board game (fluff doesn't match either)
2nd Ed can only be compared to necromunda.
3rd-7th is modern 40k and can be compared.

I realize they're different systems, but many of the units were the same and related to each other in similar ways. I will compare them.

In 4th dreads were great because they could halt many assaults due to their armor, and also counted as 10 models for cc resolution, which made it much easier to eliminate units.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Corrected some minor mistakes in first calculation.

Yes I'm perfectly in line with the changes, this seems good to rebalance the game.
But I wanted to point out that the idea that vehicles will be tougher against all threats is not true.

Well, we still don't know weapons profiles for weapons other than Lascannons, nor points costs. Scatter Laser is likely to be Dmg 1 AP-. So it is going to be much less efficient against former AV11-12 vehicles than nowadays. Autocannon might be Dmg 2 Rend -1. That would make it modestly effective. OTOH, Dreads can now be damaged with low-STR weapons which they were formerly immune against. Even though those weapons are not particularly effective, it still adds up.

People of course take weapons which they find effective. So S6-S7 weapons will be dumped in favour of high-STR shooting and if it's plentiful in the game, Vehicles still won't be durable. OTOH, if Lascannons and their ilk are priced like in 4th/5th edition (35pts apiece) then they aren't really spammed in huge quantities. We'll see.

Since someone lodged a complaint against Boltguns being able to take down a dreadnought, how many Boltguns shots are needed to bring one down?

Impossible to say as we don't definitively know the S/T table still works the same, or even still exists, but I believe, based in existing mechanics, in excess of 200.

 Kirasu wrote:

 Whittlesey40k wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Hello.

I would like to put out some arguments on vehicle resiliency. I will take the dreadnought as an example because we have his statline obviously.

Let's assume that scatter laser, a typical medium strength spammable weapon, a favourite in 7th ed will get its stats (S:6 AP:6 heavy 4) converted to this :
S:6 Rend 0 heavy 4.
probability to strip a HP in 7th ed : 1/6 which leads to an expected value of 3/(1/6) = 18 hits ; or 6.75 volleys at BS:4 for vehicle destruction.
probability to strip a HP in 8th ed : 1/9 wich leads to an expected value of 8/(1/9) = 72 hits ; or 27 volleys at BS 3+ for vehicle destruction.
300% more hits needed, the survivability is massively improved.

But...
Let's take a look as lascannon now, @ BS 4.
It is difficult to calculate the expected value of hits to destroy a dreadnought in 7th edition because of the duality of stripping HP one by one and risk of sudden explosion.
To avoid the pain of building an obnoxious spread sheet let's assume this approximation : @ AP2 on a on the damage table you count 3 HP instead of 1.
probability of removing 3 HP via penetrating hits : 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6 = 1/18
probability of removing 1 HP : 2/3 * 1/6 (glancing hits) + 2/3 * 1/2 * 5/6 (non explosive penetrating hits) = 7/18
expected value of HP per shot : 3*1/18 + 7/18 = 10/18 ; so to remove 3 you will need 3 / (10/18) = 5.40 lascannon shots approximately.

Now in 8th edition, it's simpler.
Each lascannon shot fired @ BS 3+ has 2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 50/108 probability of applying damage. Each damage has a mean value of 3.5 HP removed.
So to remove all 8 HP of the dreadnought you need : 8 / (3.5 * 50/108) = 4.94 lascannon shots approximately.

As you can see, in this case, because of the introduction of multiple damage and lowering of T value of the dreadnought, his survivability is somewhat lowered in 8th edition.

I don't know about everyone else, but to me this seems perfect. The dread is more resiliant to mid-strength weapons, but a tank busting Lascannon is now fit for purpose. You no longer have a one-weapon-fits-all situation - you need the right tool for the job. I like this

Why is this perfect? Dreads were virtually useless in the last FIVE editions of the game. The logic escapes me of something being "fine" if an already terrible unit being LESS resilient.

For some reason it seems as if the general 40k population is traumatized by The Wraithlord Syndrome (TWS) where as T8 is somehow too powerful. A T7 dreadnought is an actual downgrade from AV12 (ignoring the 6 to wound everything rule in 8th). If MC's like Trygons are 12+ wounds that'll be even more absurd compared to Dreadnoughts.

If a hypothetical unit is 30% worse than another unit it needs a (difference +50%) buff to be equal.

Because they're only less resiliant to certain weapons. it creates a meta where you crack tanks with lascannons, not autocannons, which is an improvement over 7th edition, where generally people just bring a bunch of medium power heavy weapons that can spam multiple shots to strip hull points fast. you could argue for hours on end over Fragile or not unit X "should be" as it's really a matter of personal preferance, but the change over has put vehicles and MCs on an even footing, which is good. it's also made weapons for certain jobs a little more clear. whereas 7th edition tended to have "one heavy weapon to rule them all" (grav and scatter lasers)

People have been complaining that MC's are much more resilient than vehicles for years.

Dreadnoughts get the same mechanics....but folks are complaining that they are fragile?

A BS4 Boltgun has 1/27 chance of making a wound to Dreadnought. Since Dreadnought has 8 wounds, average is 216 shots. However Q&A slightly hinted that Boltguns might have some special rule.

I actually hope that they do, as they stand now what we know of the rules (S4, no Rend), Boltguns aren't very good against, well, anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Souleater wrote:
People have been complaining that MC's are much more resilient than vehicles for years.

Dreadnoughts get the same mechanics....but folks are complaining that they are fragile?

Well, MC's might also suck this edition I think Carnifex is going to be 8 Wounds 4+ save. If so, Heavy weapons drop it quite quickly.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Since someone lodged a complaint against Boltguns being able to take down a dreadnought, how many Boltguns shots are needed to bring one down?

Each SM bolter shot has 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/3 = 1/27 chance of removing a HP. So to destroy a dreadnought with only bolters you will need to fire 8*27 = 216 shots.
That's a lot, but you can see it the other way around. In previous editions, when you were firing a tactical squad with lascannon and maybe plasma on such a target, your bolter wielding dudes were purely wasted.
Now they can add up in the process and sometimes score a HP / wound.

edit : ninja'ed !

How can a boltgun wound a dread if dread is t7 and boltgun is s4 you would need a 7 to wound or have I missed something tell me it's not a case of 6's always wound ?

10penceman wrote:
How can a boltgun wound a dread if dread is t7 and boltgun is s4 you would need a 7 to wound or have I missed something tell me it's not a case of 6's always wound ?

Wound table is probably not the same. They explicitly said that "Everything can hurt everything".

New to wound / damage table. Rumored to be that always wound regardless of toughness value.


Edit : ninja'ed again !

Backfire wrote:
A BS4 Boltgun has 1/27 chance of making a wound to Dreadnought. Since Dreadnought has 8 wounds, average is 216 shots. However Q&A slightly hinted that Boltguns might have some special rule.

I actually hope that they do, as they stand now what we know of the rules (S4, no Rend), Boltguns aren't very good against, well, anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Souleater wrote:
People have been complaining that MC's are much more resilient than vehicles for years.

Dreadnoughts get the same mechanics....but folks are complaining that they are fragile?

Well, MC's might also suck this edition I think Carnifex is going to be 8 Wounds 4+ save. If so, Heavy weapons drop it quite quickly.

I sometimes wonder if being S4 IS the boltguns special rule. if they downgrade all the other infantry weapons to S3 that'd make the bolt gun really stand out. and IMHO it'd suit the fluff too. it's a gun with no subtly, just "big boom"

Backfire wrote:


Well, MC's might also suck this edition I think Carnifex is going to be 8 Wounds 4+ save. If so, Heavy weapons drop it quite quickly.

This is fine with me. It gives a role for heavy weapons. Vehicles and Monsters will laugh off scatter laser spam but will have to fear Lascannons. Fine with me. When was the last time you actually saw a Lascannon on the table?

Alternatively, you currently need 27 shots from bolters into the rear armour to take down a Dread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rollawaythestone wrote:

Backfire wrote:


Well, MC's might also suck this edition I think Carnifex is going to be 8 Wounds 4+ save. If so, Heavy weapons drop it quite quickly.

This is fine with me. It gives a role for heavy weapons. Vehicles and Monsters will laugh off scatter laser spam but will have to fear Lascannons. Fine with me. When was the last time you actually saw a Lascannon on the table?

Or a Bright Lance, Dark Lance, Rail Gun etc. Single shot, high strength weapons have been useless in 7th, for them to get their anti-vehicle/monster role back is a good thing.

 Imateria wrote:
Alternatively, you currently need 27 shots from bolters into the rear armour to take down a Dread.

Alas, there might not be a rear armour anymore :( have they said anything about Vehicle facings and Firing arcs?

It's pretty obvious that whittling down a tank with small arms is going to be chore equivalent to killing 2++ rerollable deathstars today. So it is likely not gonna be particularly unbalancing, but it begs to question, is it really necessary? What I'm afraid we will see a lot of "So my Sergeant is still alive, he will shoot that Land Raider with his Laspistol" which just drags down the game for no real purpose.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Imateria wrote:

Or a Bright Lance, Dark Lance, Rail Gun etc. Single shot, high strength weapons have been useless in 7th, for them to get their anti-vehicle/monster role back is a good thing.

I don't understand what they were thinking when making up 7th edition Vehicle damage. It was obvious that vehicles were killed via glance spam and Hull points, so their solutions to make Vehicles tougher...was to reduce chance for one-shot kill. Mega facepalm.

I WANT big things to only go down effectively by big guns. I am looking forward to being able to bring medium armor walkers and tanks again. I hated that a bare bones tactical squad was capable of bringing down my Predators or Dreadnoughts. Now my Crimson Fists are going to have some ground game. Hopefully they will still get a bonus for busting open tanks (maybe +1 Str on Devastator Squad weapons?).

Backfire wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Or a Bright Lance, Dark Lance, Rail Gun etc. Single shot, high strength weapons have been useless in 7th, for them to get their anti-vehicle/monster role back is a good thing.

I don't understand what they were thinking when making up 7th edition Vehicle damage. It was obvious that vehicles were killed via glance spam and Hull points, so their solutions to make Vehicles tougher...was to reduce chance for one-shot kill. Mega facepalm.

+1
6th edition damage table was almost fine, what the game needed was vehicles with decent HP numbers, at least one more than what was given.
Sad to see that a reboot of the game mechanics is the solution found to all these equivocations.