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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Saber wrote:
Yo dog, I heard you liked Space Marines so I put a Space Marine inside your Space Marine you can Marine while you Marine!

What a lazy and silly idea. As others have pointed out the Marines +1 idea has already been done to death with Custodes, Grey Knights, etc.

And people apparently keep buying them....

 Azreal13 wrote:
Foreshadowing is a creative device, it's not the sole one, it isn't an obligation and it certainly isn't an indicator of quality unless done well, just like pretty much every other storytelling technique.

Again - take a creative writing course. If you're writing standard fiction rather than pretentious arthouse nonsense, foreshadowing is completely critical to producing a coherent result - you make the reader promises, and then you give them a payoff. Properly executed twists are not about springing stuff on the reader out of nowhere, but about carefully obfuscating the promises so that the payoff still surprises - the ideal reaction should be the reader slapping their forehead and exclaiming "aha, of course!" not "Eh, whut? Where'd that come from?". Or at the very least, it requires that you're capable enough to go back and retroactively tie things together in a way that makes it look like the outcome was intended all along.

So, for example, rather than the story of the nuMarines essentially being "Hey I'm Cawl, 10,000 years ago I was set a task by the Big Man himself to build nuMarines, but then everything went to gak so I stopped and have been fannying about doing my own thing for 10 millennia. Now the Big Man's son is back and annoyed at my slacking off, so I've somehow finished my work in a hilariously short amount of time and SURPRISE! Happy rebirthday Rowboat!" they could have dug into the old material and inserted Cawl into it as the shadowy, borderline-Heretekal mastermind behind the disatrous Cursed Founding, the Homo Sapiens Novus incident, had him be a backer for radical genecraft projects within the Inquisition like the Elysian D-99 and so forth, all part of his 10,000 year quest to achieve the goal he was set without direct access to the Emperor's knowledge, and that he was finally able to make his work semi-viable when given the chance to sample Rowboat's biology first-hand(personally I'd have still had them be seriously flawed in some way but deployed by Rowboat regardless out of desperation, maybe bring back some of the Rogue Trader-era characertisation of Space Marines as monstrous thugs, but I expect that wouldn't be noblebright enough for nuGW). Hell, throw some Fabius into the mix, explain the escaped Novus subject signalling him as being the result of infiltrators working for Fabius worming their way into Cawl's operations, have them be adversaries both trying to unlock the Emperor's genius for different reasons and coming into direct & indirect conflict over the years.

Basically, anything but "we need to sell these new Marine models - just say that Cawl guy we made up five minutes ago did it the weekend after Rowboat woke up".

 Yodhrin wrote:
they could have dug into the old material and inserted Cawl into it as the shadowy, borderline-Heretekal mastermind behind the disatrous Cursed Founding, the Homo Sapiens Novus incident, had him be a backer for radical genecraft projects within the Inquisition like the Elysian D-99 and so forth, all part of his 10,000 year quest to achieve the goal he was set without direct access to the Emperor's knowledge, and that he was finally able to make his work semi-viable when given the chance to sample Rowboat's biology first-hand(personally I'd have still had them be seriously flawed in some way but deployed by Rowboat regardless out of desperation, maybe bring back some of the Rogue Trader-era characertisation of Space Marines as monstrous thugs, but I expect that wouldn't be noblebright enough for nuGW). Hell, throw some Fabius into the mix, explain the escaped Novus subject signalling him as being the result of infiltrators working for Fabius worming their way into Cawl's operations, have them be adversaries both trying to unlock the Emperor's genius for different reasons and coming into direct & indirect conflict over the years.

GW should hire you.

After many years to me is pretty obvius that normally, the fans are more dedicated and know more of a universe/history/setting, etc... that even their creators. And if we are talking about a universe like 40k, built by dozens of people, with different objetives and visions of it, even more.

I can't see GW creating a new type of space marine that are bigger and badder because of a longing for a certain scale that isn't entirely accurate either. I just don't see a pet project mindset being cleared through all the levels of GW to greenlight for a scale switcher-roo with fluff tacked on that really is just normal space marines but temporarily going to be new space marines until such a time as the entire plastic space marine line has been updated into a new scale that some felt space marines should be in.

More likely some guys in sales told some guys on the model design team to replicate the Sigmarine sales with new minis and the design team interpreted that as bigger space marine models. But then the fluff writers wanted to tie that into their hack job gathering storm story and turned those bigger space marine models into a new type of space marine because there had to be a reason.

Long story short, we are experiencing the full circle of space marines affecting fantasy's revamp and now fantasy's sigmarines affecting 40k's revamp.

krazynadechukr wrote:
I am still convinced that it was GWs intention to make this new scale marine to undo the wrong scale issue that has been present all along.

How many times does this need repeating? Space Marines are not out of scale. The normal humans are.

Also bigger models are easier to paint by GW newbs and the design studio can cram more intricate detail (and more detail in general) than they can on smaller minies (not to mention that they're easier to spot from distance). Lore reasons and the strive for an in lore accurate scale are, ofcourse, laughable as reasons for the new marines to exist. It is pretty obvious to anyone in the thread - no use on threading about why there are new marines

Hopefully that will be the last time it needs to be repeated?

(Well, on this page anyway!)

All kidding aside, GW's messed up on a lot of issues, scale-wise.

This might be attempt to 'fix'...something, but more likely is an attempt to sell more things to Marines players - players that represent the largest portion of their customer base.

Indeed, this is the scale "fix" that also happens to be the most lucrative.

 Accolade wrote:
Indeed, this is the scale "fix" that also happens to be the most lucrative.

Right? If they wanted scale fix they should have started with the rhino chassis.

Ruin wrote:

krazynadechukr wrote:
I am still convinced that it was GWs intention to make this new scale marine to undo the wrong scale issue that has been present all along.

How many times does this need repeating? Space Marines are not out of scale. The normal humans are.

I never said SM were (originally) out of scale, I said the new scale of space marines are an answer to remedy the scale issue in 40k. However, with the humans that threw off the scale, the marines have become out of scale as a result. I agree with you in regards to humans being made too big and when introduced into 40k with the existing miniatures, threw off the scaling. That being said, GW saw an opening to fix the problem by making bigger marines (instead of redoing guard, which is a huge blunder because many want new guard multi-option plastic kits, Valhallans for example...), that are now true to scale with the existing human models. It would be great if they released new guard at 85-90% the size they are now because the current models are a little odd looking, IMHO.

 D6Damager wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Saber wrote:
Yo dog, I heard you liked Space Marines so I put a Space Marine inside your Space Marine you can Marine while you Marine!

What a lazy and silly idea. As others have pointed out the Marines +1 idea has already been done to death with Custodes, Grey Knights, etc.

And people apparently keep buying them....

to be fair, Custodes are not marines, Grey knights are kinda marines but not marines. Marines dont have an Actual marine +1

Grey Knights kind of are Marines+1, but it is not as bothersome since they are specialised anti-demon fighters, they are secret, and they are extremely limited in their numbers. As such, they don't really compete with Marines in the same way.

The nu-marines, on the other hand, just seem to be designed as Marines but better in every way and more useful in every situation, which feels... less than ideal.

Someone on 4chan did this scaling shot. They're not truescale or giant, just have legs that look kinda different.

Anyone thinking granny is doing this for the LULZ?

The legs are the least proportionate part of the current models so I can see why they would change them. It looks much better in my opinion.

HOWEVER, if this welcome change is accompanied by a new faction of WardMarines I'm going to be sorely disappointed!

 Yodhrin wrote:
Again - take a creative writing course. If you're writing standard fiction rather than pretentious arthouse nonsense, foreshadowing is completely critical to producing a coherent result

Hollywood loves you! You bought a formula and now can't see anything but that formula.

But better still 40K is build on the back of retconning rather than clever foreshadowing and misdirection. Not surprising since comics were a big inspiration to the early designers. If Aspect Warriors and new races can appear whole cloth out of no where or orgs can ceasing being Reavers and become animate psychotic mushrooms then Cawl can appear with his 10K years of work after reviving a Primarch with a bunch of other characters that just appeared out of no where. At least GW has been telegraphing (foreshadowing) the return of Primarchs to 40K.

I just want to see these bad boys and find out if their Ultramarines only or...

Chairman Aeon wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Again - take a creative writing course. If you're writing standard fiction rather than pretentious arthouse nonsense, foreshadowing is completely critical to producing a coherent result

I just want to see these bad boys and find out if their Ultramarines only or...

Video actually says, paraphrasing here, for the chapters that are depleted we offer a rebirth... at 1:12 on video...

Chairman Aeon wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Again - take a creative writing course. If you're writing standard fiction rather than pretentious arthouse nonsense, foreshadowing is completely critical to producing a coherent result

Hollywood loves you! You bought a formula and now can't see anything but that formula.

But better still 40K is build on the back of retconning rather than clever foreshadowing and misdirection. Not surprising since comics were a big inspiration to the early designers. If Aspect Warriors and new races can appear whole cloth out of no where or orgs can ceasing being Reavers and become animate psychotic mushrooms then Cawl can appear with his 10K years of work after reviving a Primarch with a bunch of other characters that just appeared out of no where. At least GW has been telegraphing (foreshadowing) the return of Primarchs to 40K.

I just want to see these bad boys and find out if their Ultramarines only or...

The video implies any chapter can take them. Def not Ultramarines only.

Ruin wrote:

krazynadechukr wrote:
I am still convinced that it was GWs intention to make this new scale marine to undo the wrong scale issue that has been present all along.

How many times does this need repeating? Space Marines are not out of scale. The normal humans are.

Honestly, that argument just doesn't wash. You could point at any random faction in the 40k range and say, "that's the one that's the correct scale!"

The fact remains that most of GW's recent human(ish) releases ( genestealer cults, sisters of silence, Adeptus Mechanicum) are beautiful miniatures and pretty much correctly scaled to each other. Space marines are the exceptions, badly proportioned and with weird anatomy. I know which one I'd rather GW replaced.

I'm in the camp of those who've never wanted a marine army before because they're dome of GW's worst miniatures (imho). Now, I'm cautiously optimistic that these new marines may finally be the marines I've been waiting for.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

Ruin wrote:

krazynadechukr wrote:
I am still convinced that it was GWs intention to make this new scale marine to undo the wrong scale issue that has been present all along.

How many times does this need repeating? Space Marines are not out of scale. The normal humans are.

Honestly, that argument just doesn't wash. You could point at any random faction in the 40k range and say, "that's the one that's the correct scale!"

The fact remains that most of GW's recent human(ish) releases ( genestealer cults, sisters of silence, Adeptus Mechanicum) are beautiful miniatures and pretty much correctly scaled to each other. Space marines are the exceptions, badly proportioned and with weird anatomy. I know which one I'd rather GW replaced.

I'm in the camp of those who've never wanted a marine army before because they're dome of GW's worst miniatures (imho). Now, I'm cautiously optimistic that these new marines may finally be the marines I've been waiting for.

Can we put this whole debate of scale to rest now?

Bigger marines are coming, some people's opinion is that it'll look more realistic with the existing miniatures on the table, and it is what it is.

I hope new guard will come soon. Plastic kit that can be made into one of several famous guard armies. That'd be nice.

This is awesome! After that nonsense with the primarch returning I decided I no longer have any interest in any of the fluff they produce from now on. And since my games are all going to be set pre-Gathering Storm I can skip these Bigmarines too! If all the new releases are going to be for stuff that only exists in this new awful setting going forward, I'm gonna save so much money! Maybe I'll actually finish my Pile of Shame!

Too bad we're never getting plastic techmarines though...

just a thought - what if they aren't a new space marine faction
but rather rules wise an 'up-grade' to normal Space Marine Squads something along the lines of any space marine squad can be upgraded to Indominable Marines (given that is called the Indomidus crusade, this name works as well as any) for x points

icn1982 wrote:
just a thought - what if they aren't a new space marine faction
but rather rules wise an 'up-grade' to normal Space Marine Squads something along the lines of any space marine squad can be upgraded to Indominable Marines (given that is called the Indomidus crusade, this name works as well as any) for x points

This is most definitely what is going to happen. They will be a unit not a faction. That's where i've put my bet.

 warboss wrote:
Actually playing like fluff marines

They already do, unless your definition of "fluff marines" is "unbeatable boring-ass mary sues who get to treat everyone else as nothing more than punching bags for marine players to get their jollies off on".

Space Marines are badass. So's everyone else. And that upsets you, I get it. Doesn't make it unfluffy.

This thread probably lasted longer than many thought, but since Rule #1 seems to be in constant danger here...


...see you all when GW releases more (any? actual?) details!