UK & EU Politics Thread

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**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Can we just Godwin this suggestion and move on to the next ridiculous thing, I really can't be bothered going through the rigmarole of "London is a hive of scum and villainy" thing for what must be the 3rd or 4th time.

But it's not far from the truth though, is it?

At the top, we have billons of pounds of dodgy money stashed away in London on a daily basis.

At the bottom, we seem to have this Darwinian battle between rival street gangs.

From top to bottom, London is going to the dogs.

I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade here, and If I get criticised for it, then so be it. At least I tried to do something...

**Deadnight**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
MrDwhitey wrote:
I'm wondering if after all this time he'll use the "I was only pretending to be" line.

Well, everybody think crime is something that only affects other people...and then you get a knife waved before your eyes, or a cosh to the back of the head, or somebody creeping about your house at 3am...

My wife is Scottish. She's absolutely terrifying to me if I have to get up at 3am. Anyone else skulking in our flat better watch out. Especially when she sleeps next to a baseball bat.

And no, those things suck, but they're still not an excuse to get hysterical and turn to having armed paramilitaries, with surplus military gear on the streets. Or in this case, will we also need armed paramilitaries with free access to our houses too? Just in case...

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Well, don't come running to me or start bleating about it on dakka if crooks fleece you of your hard earned money...
My response will be this:

And when your armed paramilitaries kill the wrong people on the streets and cause absolute chaos, can we come along and say 'told you so', or will you just shrug it off and claim you weren't responsible...

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

But it's not far from the truth though, is it?

Only if your perception is skewed.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

At the top, we have billons of pounds of dodgy money stashed away in London on a daily basis.
At the bottom, we seem to have this Darwinian battle between rival street gangs.
From top to bottom, London is going to the dogs.

And everywhere else, between the 'top' and 'bottom', lifes goes on and people go through their day, live their lives and don't have to deal with any hassle beyond the usual daily grind.

Londons all right. It's a far cry from 'going to the dogs'.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade here, and If I get criticised for it, then so be it. At least I tried to do something...

Coming up with hysterical, ludicrous and utterly impractical ideas like reintroducing the Black and Tans is not 'doing something'.

**tneva82**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

See how long a country lasts for when it has no police or military.

Yes. Of course you are talking about adding in non-police non-military guys into street with guns...In otherwords vigilantes. Which never ends up in good.

Oh and "special situation that won't happen again".

The moment people think that is the moment that repetition is very much going to happen.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Well, don't come running to me or start bleating about it on dakka if crooks fleece you of your hard earned money...

My response will be this:

Ah yes your typical black and white view. If world isn't 100% safe it's all hell on streets and armed vigilantes must be let loose to gun down innocent people just to ensure there's no other criminals on the streets...

...nevermind London isn't even particularly unsafe city in the world. Even on 1st world grade.

**Future War Cultist**

DINLT, I hate to have to disagree with you, seeing as though you’re one of the few friends I have in here, but the answer to the current crime wave in London isn’t to recreate Dad’s Army with untrained civies using surplus WW2 gear.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

From top to bottom, London is going to the dogs.

I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade here, and If I get criticised for it, then so be it. At least I tried to do something...

You wouldn't know a spade if a London thug snuck up and hit you in the back of the head with it at 3 AM though, that's the problem.

**Kilkrazy**

Brexit poll reveals record number of voters think decision to leave EU is wrong

Not a surprise.

**reds8n**

..spot the theme..

Spoiler:

ConHome's latest poll of Tory members

Spoiler:

one detects something of a pro brexit bias there perhaps.

**Kilkrazy**

Grayling is trying to blame Network Rail and the operating companies for the new timetable omnishambles, but the "word on the street" is that they were force to move their schedule unrealistically forwards to satisfy Department of Transport demands.

The figures on investment per head are pretty shocking. Even if you acknowledge that tunnelling under central London is a lot more expensive than upgrading the track around Newcastle, it's still a massive disparity.

**AndrewGPaul**

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Can we just Godwin this suggestion and move on to the next ridiculous thing, I really can't be bothered going through the rigmarole of "London is a hive of scum and villainy" thing for what must be the 3rd or 4th time.

To be fair, it is, but the scum and villains are mostly in that big building by the river - the one next to the famous bell tower.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

reds8n wrote:

related :

Spoiler:

Was their headline rationed? Could they not afford the five additional letters to correctly write "England" instead of "UK" there? It's not even the usual "England and Wales" this time.

**Kilkrazy**

I don't understand? What do you mean England rather than the UK. They're the same thing, aren't they?

**Jadenim**

AndrewGPaul wrote:
Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Can we just Godwin this suggestion and move on to the next ridiculous thing, I really can't be bothered going through the rigmarole of "London is a hive of scum and villainy" thing for what must be the 3rd or 4th time.

To be fair, it is, but the scum and villains are mostly in that big building by the river - the one next to the famous bell tower.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

reds8n wrote:

related :

Spoiler:

Was their headline rationed? Could they not afford the five additional letters to correctly write "England" instead of "UK" there? It's not even the usual "England and Wales" this time.

I guess Cornwall got their independence too when I wasn’t looking; that’ll cheer them up!

In all seriousness, the disparity in funding between London and the rest of the country is criminal; I honestly wonder whether there is a legal recourse for misappropriation of public funds. As for Killkrazy’s point about tunnelling being more expensive, true, but public transport in a dense urban area is much more efficient (I.e. one bus travelling through a London borough is going to serve a lot more people than one going over the Pennines). I think that will balance out somewhat in a per capita figure.

**Kilkrazy**

Gordon Brown warns of Brexit paralysis

The thing is, while Gordo is correct that the UK needs to address problems like stagnant wages, low productivity and the NHS, he is wrong to describe these are the main drivers of the Leave vote. The key factor was white English identity crisis, primarily among older, more conservative people.

This isn't a point which can be addressed by addressing economic factors. It's a matter of identity politics, based on an emotional reaction against the modern world.

**r_squared**

You could almost feel sorry for May.

Negotiations going badly, rebellious divided party, rail chaos challenging the neo-liberal free makeyt ideology, chronic underfunding of essential services causing widespread misery and dissatisfaction, institutionalised racismin in govt and party, enormous national debt, and every day something new that ends up as a serious challenge for this Govt.

Almost sorry, until you remember that they've had nearly a decade to get their gak in a sock, and the rest of the problems they've caused themselves by implementing their own policies.

It's laughable how anybody can trust the conservatives, or say that they are the best hope for Britain. Anyone who still claims that in face of the evidence probably needs to ease off the medication. The conservatives thought they'd lost their nasty party image, but it's just got worse. Their decisions and leadership have directly lead this country to the worst and most vulnerable position it's been in in decades, and yet the partisan, and the slightly dim still seem determined to vote for them regardless of what they do.

They need kicking out before they do anymore harm to the country, but at this stage I'm struggling to think what that could possibly be. Maybe the dissolution of the Union, the loss of our overseas territories and our position as a respected nation on the world stage. Oh wait....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:
The key factor was white English identity crisis, primarily among older, more conservative people.

This isn't a point which can be addressed by addressing economic factors. It's a matter of identity politics, based on an emotional reaction against the modern world.

Not just older people, its pretty much all right wingers these days regardless of age. They're more obsessed with identity politics than your average lefty student.

**Riquende**

Isn't the issue here that Corbyn's Labour just don't appeal to the centre ground of voters, which makes it harder for them to boost polls above 40% (which keeps Labour 2-3% below the Tories)?

Also his own personal politics allow the Tories to play up the 'red scare' to their base to consolidate their vote.

Even if Corbyn were to win more votes than May at a near-future hypothetical GE, there's no chance in hell that he's winning an overall majority in parliament, and would have to compromise any principles in a coalition or similar. Labour have been very quick to rule this option out in the run up to the last two elections so who knows how it would pan out?

**Whirlwind**

Riquende wrote:
Isn't the issue here that Corbyn's Labour just don't appeal to the centre ground of voters, which makes it harder for them to boost polls above 40% (which keeps Labour 2-3% below the Tories)?

Also his own personal politics allow the Tories to play up the 'red scare' to their base to consolidate their vote.

The statistics show that this isn't strictly correct. The major influence on voting intentions is age. The older the more likely you are to vote Tory, this at the moment favours them because of the higher proportion of old people that vote. The question is whether this is a trend about age, or whether those under 40 are starting to reject the Tory ideology and that as they age that will push the Tories further and further into the grass (we can only hope).

Even if Corbyn were to win more votes than May at a near-future hypothetical GE, there's no chance in hell that he's winning an overall majority in parliament, and would have to compromise any principles in a coalition or similar. Labour have been very quick to rule this option out in the run up to the last two elections so who knows how it would pan out?

I have no particular issue with a centre left coalition made up of Labour/LD/SNP and so forth. We need more compromise in politics rather than the Tories do it our way or we'll send you to a Grenfell Tower near you. We amy also get a change in the voting method to PR which should benefit all areas.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

But it's not far from the truth though, is it?

At the top, we have billons of pounds of dodgy money stashed away in London on a daily basis.

At the bottom, we seem to have this Darwinian battle between rival street gangs.

From top to bottom, London is going to the dogs.

I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade here, and If I get criticised for it, then so be it. At least I tried to do something...

We all know the solution to London's problems is nuking it. Gets rid of the Heathrow problem as well.

**r_squared**

Riquende wrote:
Isn't the issue here that Corbyn's Labour just don't appeal to the centre ground of voters, which makes it harder for them to boost polls above 40% (which keeps Labour 2-3% below the Tories)?

Also his own personal politics allow the Tories to play up the 'red scare' to their base to consolidate their vote.

Even if Corbyn were to win more votes than May at a near-future hypothetical GE, there's no chance in hell that he's winning an overall majority in parliament, and would have to compromise any principles in a coalition or similar. Labour have been very quick to rule this option out in the run up to the last two elections so who knows how it would pan out?

Actually, a lot of the Labour manifesto was popular, however, the conservative PR machine is rampant demonising the very idea that social-democracy is even a valid or reasonable political position.
It's market led neo-liberalism or nothing. The centre ground is now firmly entrenched in the right.

**Riquende**

Whirlwind wrote:
The question is whether this is a trend about age, or whether those under 40 are starting to reject the Tory ideology and that as they age that will push the Tories further and further into the grass (we can only hope).

It would be excellent if true, but the usual course of action is that the marginalised party moves towards the centre to start recapturing that middle vote. It's entirely possible it never reverts away from the new, more moderate position (after all, the 19th century Tory manifestoes must make chilling reading these days). Very rarely is a party so out of touch that a new challenger sweeps in entirely (and who would replace the Tories anyway?)

**Kilkrazy**

The Conservatives have managed to turn themselves into the party of economic failure, incompetence, misery for disabled people, declining living standards for 90% of the population, no houses, burning people alive in tower blocks with zero safety standards, no trains, selling off banks cheaply to the private investors who shat them into bankruptcy in the first place, "free" academy schools which teach social isolation and creationism at taxpayer expense, the Garden Bridge, armed services that have withered almost into irrelevance, an NHS in constant crisis, doctors refused visas because of a non-existent immigration target, university student loans over £50,000 which will never be paid back, a state visit for Trump, tax havens for the rich and Russian oligarchs and Chinese government bigwigs, the collapse of the diesel car industry combined with record illegal pollution in all our cities, Hinckley B selling us electricity at double the market price, roads so full of potholes they are like a tank training ground, the gig economy of insecure casualized labour, arms sales to the Saudis, the crisis in social care, the about to explode crisis in sexual health, Voter ID, the Windrush nationality scandal..

All this and Brexit too...

How the feth have the Conservatives managed to keep a majority in Parliament? Oh, wait! They didn't!! They had to bribe the DUP with half a billion to vote with them.

**reds8n**

makes you proud eh ?

..sure those areas will get a swift windfall from the govt soon enough eh ?

Spoiler:

edit :

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1004060420234186753

Live on Sky News Tonight - new #BrexitForensics story as European Governments issue advice to their exporters not to use parts from Britain - Top car exec tells me “catastrophe” for UK auto

Dutch Government official advice to its business community warns its manufacturers “if a large part of your product consists of parts from the UK” they may lose free trade terms for exports.

“After Brexit, parts made in UK no longer count towards this minimum production in EU”

The Government would argue that this is premature, but the likes of the Dutch are already advising their manufacturers to reduce dependence on UK:
“Trade with the UK will become more difficult after Brexit... consider looking for alternatives”

Dutch Gov advice to its biz:
“opps for market access for UK competitors are deteriorating. Their access to EU countries is deteriorating. Your UK competitors may also not be able to use EU trade agreements. Check whether to strengthen your competitive position in these markets”
While we were working on this Dutch story, the European Commission put out a similar technical note on the rules of origin issue: “As of withdrawal date, the UK becomes a third country. UK inputs are considered 'non-originating'," it says.

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/notice-to-stakeholders-brexit-preferential-origin-final_en.pdf

In theory could be sorted by 1. Being in customs union 2. something called cumulation (both bilateral and diagonal, of course)... but that definitively requires A Deal - ie forget No Deal if you want this sorted. Indeed even the THREAT of No Deal has allowed the Dutch to do this

Government was told about all of this rules of origin stuff about a month after the referendum by Civil Servants, and in detail by the Japanese memo from Sept 2016:

https://news.sky.com/story/japans-unprecedented-warning-to-uk-over-brexit-10564585

yet another fething fantastic bonus from the people who brought you Brexit.

**Kilkrazy**

Stormont must act on abortion reform 'or Westminster will'

That's not going to play well with the DUP.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

I agree that women in Northern Ireland ought to have the same rights as the rest of the UK (and now, the Republic of Ireland) but Northern Ireland has a devolved government. Shouldn't this be a matter for the Northern Irish Assembly to decide, not Westminster?

Or is the Good Friday Agreement and Northern Irish devolution now to be ignored whenever Westminster finds it convenient?

And if that's the case, that Northern Irish devolution should be overruled by Westminster, doesn't that mean all the people making a fuss over Brexit violating the GFA but now calling for a Westminster intervention are hypocrites?

**Da Boss**

The problem is that:
A) Northern Ireland does not have a functioning government and long talks to try and set one up completely collapsed.
B) The petition of concern mechanism has been used by the DUP to block any reform to Northern Ireland's abortion laws. This was generally ignored by most people in the UK as long as the Republic of Ireland had regressive abortion laws, I suppose because it was easy to just blame those wacky Irish for it. Now a spotlight has been put on the socially regressive laws in NI.

**Howard A Treesong**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Stormont must act on abortion reform 'or Westminster will'

That's not going to play well with the DUP.

May didn’t even want this being debated, she doesn’t want it going to a referendum, so much for democracy. The DUP can bring down her government any time they like. This is what happens when you make a pact with such people to prop you up in government. There’s only three DUP MPs and they’re the tail wagging the dog.

**r_squared**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I agree that women in Northern Ireland ought to have the same rights as the rest of the UK (and now, the Republic of Ireland) but Northern Ireland has a devolved government. Shouldn't this be a matter for the Northern Irish Assembly to decide, not Westminster?

Or is the Good Friday Agreement and Northern Irish devolution now to be ignored whenever Westminster finds it convenient?

And if that's the case, that Northern Irish devolution should be overruled by Westminster, doesn't that mean all the people making a fuss over Brexit violating the GFA but now calling for a Westminster intervention are hypocrites?

It's not Westminster overruling a devolved government, if that devolved government is not functioning due to their own intractable positions. The DUP has been delighted by the prospect of direct rule from Westminster, but now its inconvenient? They can't have it all ways.

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/dup-arlene-foster-call-direct-rule-stormont/

Either they form their devolved government, or accept the rule of Westminster which inclues potentially changing their laws. They need to choose what they want, and accept the results of their choice. At least they have a choice.

**Howard A Treesong**

Their abortion laws are at odds with the human rights act and ECHR, it’s shocking it’s been allowed to slide this long. The DUP don’t want NI to be treated ‘differently’ post brexit, yet insist they can continue to ban abortions and same sex marriage unlike the rest of the UK, or indeed the rest of the developed world.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Stormont must act on abortion reform 'or Westminster will'

That's not going to play well with the DUP.

May didn’t even want this being debated, she doesn’t want it going to a referendum, so much for democracy. The DUP can bring down her government any time they like. This is what happens when you make a pact with such people to prop you up in government. There’s only three DUP MPs and they’re the tail wagging the dog.

Only 3? I thought there were 10.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

r_squared wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I agree that women in Northern Ireland ought to have the same rights as the rest of the UK (and now, the Republic of Ireland) but Northern Ireland has a devolved government. Shouldn't this be a matter for the Northern Irish Assembly to decide, not Westminster?

Or is the Good Friday Agreement and Northern Irish devolution now to be ignored whenever Westminster finds it convenient?

And if that's the case, that Northern Irish devolution should be overruled by Westminster, doesn't that mean all the people making a fuss over Brexit violating the GFA but now calling for a Westminster intervention are hypocrites?

It's not Westminster overruling a devolved government, if that devolved government is not functioning due to their own intractable positions. The DUP has been delighted by the prospect of direct rule from Westminster, but now its inconvenient? They can't have it all ways.

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/dup-arlene-foster-call-direct-rule-stormont/

Either they form their devolved government, or accept the rule of Westminster which inclues potentially changing their laws. They need to choose what they want, and accept the results of their choice. At least they have a choice.

Thankyou for informing me. I know next to nothing about Northern Ireland.

**Howard A Treesong**

You’re right, they have three in the Lords. Still, 10 MPs getting the government over a barrel is no less a problem.

**Ketara**

I see no problem with Westminster legislating if the Northern Irish arrangement has broken down. Somebody has to run the country. If they'd like to settle the matter themselves and hold a referendum on the matter, that would be equally acceptable.

As long as the latter option is there and proffered freely, there's really no question of rule from Westminster being imposed against the will of the population; they are still part of the UK after all, and Westminster is the ultimate arbiter. I'm reasonably certain that Westminster has the right to hold a referendum there regardless of any question of the rights of the assembly; in the same way NI voted on Brexit. And if the referendum returns a result similar to Southern Ireland, there's nothing more to be said on the matter but to alter the law. Certainly, the local parties wouldn't be able to complain it was overriding the will of the people.

And if the local parties want to complain that the will of the people shouldn't be heard because it might return an unpalatable result, tough.

**r_squared**

So the conservative Muslim forum have stated that the Tories have "given excessive priority to electoral consideration rather than taking decisive action" and "have wished the problem would go away".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44378791

Still not a peep from the rest of the national media, too busy complaining about runways, fawning over Love Island, or discussing the scandal of Heinz ditching salad cream.

**Whirlwind**

r_squared wrote:
So the conservative Muslim forum have stated that the Tories have "given excessive priority to electoral consideration rather than taking decisive action" and "have wished the problem would go away".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44378791

Still not a peep from the rest of the national media, too busy complaining about runways, fawning over Love Island, or discussing the scandal of Heinz ditching salad cream.

Or they are deliberately trying to ignore the issue and hope it goes away. It shows just how far we still have to go and despite what the government keeps saying we are getting much worse at the moment in being an inclusive society.