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I'm almost beginning to feel the same as Davies, that May is laying a very subtle, very long games that will end with the UK half-in and half-out forever.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
So, if we ignore what Europe is doing and leading the world in then we can say that Europe is falling behind.

And people surprised for this are...None.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I'm almost beginning to feel the same as Davies, that May is laying a very subtle, very long games that will end with the UK half-in and half-out forever.

That gives May way too much credit. I don't think she has ever shown anything approaching subtlety in her entire career. The "Go Home" vans weren't subtle, her parroting of "Strong and Stable" wasn't subtle (she didn't even break open a thesaurus to find some synonyms for strong and/or stable after it became a joke), her leather trousers weren't subtle and neither did she have Yugi Motos ability to look good in leather, etc. etc.

Lots of those huge American companies have European teams doing R&D work, you need to look at where the staff Are, not the head office.

The UK and Europe lead the way in all sorts of subtle things and quite often are used by the US/Chinese multinationals. As companies get bigger ownership tends to move to the US/China because that's where the investment money is.

Europe is full of small industrial estate units quietly changing the world that you benefit from but have never heard of.

...gawd 'elp us all ..

Reassured to see we're at the "Brexit will be saved by Davis shooting people" moment.

About 1 more week or so an they'll be denying they were ever even in favour of it and bemoan the dastardly EU for making us leave.




note : “Should” (not must). “Until” (who decides). “Expects” not will.

about as binding as a fish's handshake.

If Davies is ex-SAS he should know their unofficial motto -- Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents Piss-poor Performance.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If Davies is ex-SAS he should know their unofficial motto -- Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents Piss-poor Performance.

UK gov needs to have that one tatooed on there foreheads...

...so Del Boy got that one wrong too?

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1004745870946992128

Brussels source: “EU will accept no time limit in the Withdrawal Agreement. HMG can say it expects this or that by YE21; this does not commit the EU27”

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1004712570140446720

BREXITEERS AT WAR: A senior brexit-supporting gvt source:

"DD claims of victory are simply delusional. He has once again been outmanoeuvred and outwitted by Robbins and his officials. Even Barnier is now expressing sympathy for him. It's beyond a joke now."

which seems a bold claim... but..



.. ouch.





... adults wrote this.

apparently.

Two uses of "the UK is clear" in the paragraph.

It shows the UK really means it.

Really.

 reds8n wrote:
Reassured to see we're at the "Brexit will be saved by Davis shooting people" moment.

Or alternatively wilfully drive Brexit into a wall because he knows he can survive to live out his Mad Max larping dream. Two ways to take that

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The USA is shaping the IT future with Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple etc etc and you see how rich and powerful and influential these companies are.

The problem with all of these are that they have become household names because the US's capitalist culture significantly favours larger companies whereas Europe is by far more socialist. The latter tends to mean the population are exploited 'less'. For example the Google / Facebook/ Apples etc all require intense energy requirements to support the server infrastructure. In the US they can exploit the low cost of energy (regardless of the environmental consequences) that Europe simply wouldn't accommodate. Amazon and Apple exploit low skilled labour for retail/manufacturing the former selling cheap and en-masse, the latter at stupidly high prices manufactured in slave sweat shops. However I'd note that I think Apple is a bubble that will burst. I think they are an over-hyped company.

However, back to topic, the EU does have world famous companies but they are less day to day household names (though some are) because they are more specialised. Companies like Airbus, Rolls-Royce, GlaxoKleinSmith, Unilever, VW, Shell, Daimler, BP, Nestle and so forth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 reds8n wrote:


Two uses of "the UK is clear" in the paragraph.

It shows the UK really means it.

Really.

I think I can effectively shorten this whole paragraph


Time Limiting the agreement

29. The UK is clear that it is again punting the ball into the long grass as we don't have a clue.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If Davies is ex-SAS he should know their unofficial motto -- Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents Piss-poor Performance.

It's probably why he is ex-SAS; didn't believe in the motto. Just ran forward yelling it "run for the cliffs folks it will all be fine".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I'm almost beginning to feel the same as Davies, that May is laying a very subtle, very long games that will end with the UK half-in and half-out forever.

I think it is more likely she doesn't want to lose the job of being PM. No one else wants it whilst Wrexit is going on. Hence the easiest way to stay in the job longer, is make Wrexit last longer...Give it a couple of years and I'm sure she'll find a way to cancel the next General Election.

Geordie Greig to replace Paul Dacre as editor of the Daily Mail.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44404045

This is a very interesting development, because the Daily Mail is a highly influential paper, nationalistic and Brexitty, while the Mail on Sunday under Greig is far more moderate and anti-Brexit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abortion in NI...

If you follow the legal news, you will already be aware that the Supreme Court ruled they could not rule on today's case regarding abortion in NI because the plaintiff had no standing. However they equally said that their majority opinion was that NI law violates human rights, and if an actual victim brings case, it will be a walk-in. (My words, not theirs.)

Belfast woman to challenge NI abortion law

Oh for feths sake.

Can we just go back to the polls and make BoJo, Rees-Move and that witch Gove cry?

You know it’s coming.

I know it’s coming.

Everyone knows it’s coming.

Especially Brexiteers, hence their rabid ‘BUT WILL O RA PEEPUL’ drivel and determination to paint anyone who doesn’t embrace their frankly nihilistic approach a ‘traitor’.

I doubt if anybody will be surprised to learn this, but my blood pressure is going through the roof.

More fudge, more sham, more long grass, more cans getting kicked down the road.

What we've come to expect from May...

And as always, Tory Brexiteers talk the talk, but when push comes to shove, they always seem to run out of stamps for their no confidence letters to the 1922 committee...

And on cue, the EU expresses doubts about any new UK proposal....

Two years, 2 fething years of this sham. 2 fething years of incompetence and ineptitude at every level

If I was to assemble Mad Doc, reds8n, Kilkrazy, Herzlos, Da Boss, whirlwind, Town called Malus and any other EU supporters on this thread


and asked you guys to negotiate Brexit.


Feth me, you'd probably do a better job than this shower of horsegak...

Somebody get me a bottle of vodka...

We.

Told.

You.

So.

But apparently, ‘project fear’.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We.

Told.

You.

So.

But apparently, ‘project fear’.

Unfortunately this will fall on deaf ears. Maybe not on here, but I bet among Brexit supporters the is blaim of everything from a pro EU plot, via incompetent negotiation or the evil EU but not ever that this was warned about and predicted. Brexit always was going to be a clusterfeth and always will be.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We.

Told.

You.

So.

But apparently, ‘project fear’.

I'm talking about basic negotiating skills here. Or in this case, the lack of. Remain never predicted anything about the government's abject failure to go through even the motions of preparing for a no deal scenario. Remain didn't have a crystal ball and anybody, regardless of what side they were on who says otherwise, is a liar...


No insult intended to you. Nobody in the known universe could predict incompetence on this scale...

Here's an example of what I mean: 2 years ago, Private Eye ran a story that told us the UK lost one of the world's best trade negotiators because we weren't willing to pay him a few extra quid...

So on the eve of Brexit talks with the EU worth billions, absolute billions, and the UK's future at stake...we turned scrooge

Why? Fething why?

I would have launched suitcases full of money at him. Drowned him in £10 notes. Paid him 10 million a year if need be...Gave him the Mona Lisa. Whatever it took...

And if anybody moaned, I would have said, shut the feth up. Becuase we're paying this guy millions to save us billions...

Seriously, who on God's earth could have predicted a blunder like that?

Fething nobody!!!

I wouldn't touch the gakstorm that is Brexit negotiations. There's no way to win; there's just lots of different ways to lose.

Herzlos wrote:
I wouldn't touch the gakstorm that is Brexit negotiations. There's no way to win; there's just lots of different ways to lose.

Barnier and Guy Verhofstadt have already said that May's latest box of fudge is unworkable and is not what was agreed last December...

I have been reduced to relying on those two to get me Brexit...

This is the twilight zone state of British politics that I have been reduced to...

Feth me with a fishfork, but I need to lie down somewhere for a bit...

But we did predict it; a big deal was made about our lack of negotiators and negotiating skill. Admittedly we thought Cameron would be the one to make a mess of negotiations or It'd be this bad; but we definitely warned you aboit exactly this on here and we're ignored as "project fear".

It's not going to get any better for a long time so if this is upsetting your blood pressure it might be best to ignore negotiations for another 3 years.

Indeed.

It was dumb to trigger article 50 when they did with -- as per usual -- no actual plan or thoughts in place.

34 million people voted in the referendum.

And those 34 million need to march on Parliament and send those fethers packing, tear down the Commons and start again.

The Remain voters can chase MPs away for agreeing to the referendum in the first place.

Leave voters can direct a boot to the rears of MPs for botching the negotiations and making us a laughing stock.

I say to everybody, regardless of what side you were on, that we've all been badly let down by our politicians for decades...

British society has got the government we deserve, and we've nobody to blame but ourselves for maintaining the system, because we have always had the power to change it...


We got lazy and we dropped our guard...

DINLT.

We.

Effing.

Told.

You.

This.

Is.

What.

Would.

Happen.

This is on you. You and your fellow Leave voters. Again, feel free to grab the mop and start clearing up your mess whenever you feel like it, yeah? Ideally *now*.

There were four fundamental errors made right at the start.

1. Ignoring the fact that over 48% of the electorate didn't support the objective.

2. Calling an election for "Strong and Stable" which the Conservatives lost because of 1.

3. Triggering Article 50 and starting the countdown, thus putting a limit on the time available for negotiations. Most of the House of Commons must bear collective responsibility for that. Labour should have found the courage to vote against.

4. Setting out the "Red Lines" which make it impossible to negotiate a deal and almost inevitably lead to a Hard Brexit which causes economic meltdown and violates the Good Friday Agreement.

It was also a mistake to bribe the DUP to support the Conservative government, robbing the government of any shreds of democratic and moral legitimacy that might have remained to them.

DINLT - what the gak were you expecting to happen?

Herzlos wrote:
DINLT - what the gak were you expecting to happen?

As a student of British history, I really thought that our current politicians would follow the example of our forefathers and try their best for the nation in such a moment of national importance.

Pull out all the stops, work around the clock, put the country before party interest etc etc


But I made the mistake of reading books about David Lloyd George, Atlee, Harold Wilson etc etc and thinking that our current politicians could match their political acumen and cunning...

What we got instead was David Cameron and Theresa May. Two people who couldn't find a bowl of rice in China...






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There were four fundamental errors made right at the start.

1. Ignoring the fact that over 48% of the electorate didn't support the objective.

2. Calling an election for "Strong and Stable" which the Conservatives lost because of 1.

3. Triggering Article 50 and starting the countdown, thus putting a limit on the time available for negotiations. Most of the House of Commons must bear collective responsibility for that. Labour should have found the courage to vote against.

4. Setting out the "Red Lines" which make it impossible to negotiate a deal and almost inevitably lead to a Hard Brexit which causes economic meltdown and violates the Good Friday Agreement.

It was also a mistake to bribe the DUP to support the Conservative government, robbing the government of any shreds of democratic and moral legitimacy that might have remained to them.

1. The referendum was a straight shoot-out, winner takes it all, so no offence, but I never gave a damn about the losers, because I fully expected the other side not to give a damn about me, had they won, and I would have had no complaints...

2. The election was a fething disaster, so we're in agreement there, but IMO it wasn't about 1. May is just useless and the country knew it.

3. 2 years should have been enough time. This government is so incompetent, that 2 centuries wouldn't have been enough. The time limit was never the problem.

4. Red lines were essential. You need some kind of limit before you sit down at the table, and besides, the EU have their red lines.

And your last point about the DUP. Totally agree.

What's best for the country is to stay a core member of the EU.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
What's best for the country is to stay a core member of the EU.

You could argue that Britain left the EU when we opted out of joining the Euro...

You can't have fiscal union without political union, and the Eurozone will always be the engine of change...

Brexit, IMO, was inevitable at some stage...

If I was negotiating Brexit I would be going for the softest of soft brexits because that is what I think makes the most sense. So I am not sure you would like me to be doing it.


What staggers me is that the failure is not really confined to the politicians. The delusional behaviour is on show in the various think tanks, stuffed with apparently highly educated people from oxbridge, it is visible in how the media commentators talk about it and frame it (the breathless drama over Davis and May today, debating a proposal they must know is not going to be accepted by the EU, and all of the media treating it like it was the main event, it has been like this the entire way through!). They are all oxbridge educated too, as are most of your politicians. It really makes me wonder what the hell they are teaching them over there. It is a total social failure, but particularly of the elite and establishment.

I remember at the start of the negotiations, the British media wags confidently stating that the EU would have trouble staying united against the UK. Some joke eh? The 27 are united, the 1 is divided against itself, even within its ruling party. An absolutely embarrassing shambles. Britain used to be a serious country.

 Da Boss wrote:
If I was negotiating Brexit I would be going for the softest of soft brexits because that is what I think makes the most sense. So I am not sure you would like me to be doing it.


What staggers me is that the failure is not really confined to the politicians. The delusional behaviour is on show in the various think tanks, stuffed with apparently highly educated people from oxbridge, it is visible in how the media commentators talk about it and frame it (the breathless drama over Davis and May today, debating a proposal they must know is not going to be accepted by the EU, and all of the media treating it like it was the main event, it has been like this the entire way through!). They are all oxbridge educated too, as are most of your politicians. It really makes me wonder what the hell they are teaching them over there. It is a total social failure, but particularly of the elite and establishment.

I remember at the start of the negotiations, the British media wags confidently stating that the EU would have trouble staying united against the UK. Some joke eh? The 27 are united, the 1 is divided against itself, even within its ruling party. An absolutely embarrassing shambles. Britain used to be a serious country.

I do wonder about Oxbridge...

None the less, the EU 27's unity it not as cast iron as some people would like to have us believe...

Britain genuinely could have exploited some of the tensions there and won us friends at the table...


With a competent Foreign secretary, we could have been promising the Baltic nations more troops to reassure them about Russia.


Denmark has always been worried about more integration. The Dutch as well. With Roterdam, we could have lob the Dutch some cash for their upgrades to the port...

We could have bunged Greece a few quid, sent more patrol boats to help the Italians with the refugees.


Exploited EU/Hungary tensions. Cynical I know, but this is politics,


plus a hundred other things that could have been done, or at least attempted. We coud have at least have tried them...


But we did none of that because we have a buffoon in the job, and a ditherer who appointed him in the first place...