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Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

To return the topic to UK Politics, it appears that Leave.EU's main sponsor, Arron Banks, had multiple meetings with Russian officials during the run-up to the Brexit campaign.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/arron-banks-russia-brexit-meeting

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Da Boss wrote:
Woo! We get to join the Imperialist club! At last we will be real Europeans.


By we do you mean Germany? - they had their imperial past just any other nation - African and other colonies were lost after the first world war.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 Kilkrazy wrote:
To return the topic to UK Politics, it appears that Leave.EU's main sponsor, Arron Banks, had multiple meetings with Russian officials during the run-up to the Brexit campaign.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/arron-banks-russia-brexit-meeting


I may be a Brexit supporter, but I'm happy to have a full investigation into Russian involvement in British politics. Our democracy is precious and needs to be defended against outside influence.

We could start by going after their dodgy money in London.

I've argued before that 40 years of Euro-Scepticism predates Putin, so I would argue that any Russian involvement would have been negligible on parts of British society that have always been hostile to the EU. Others will probably disagree.

Still, questions need to be asked.

The thing is though, is anybody going to give two hoots for it? The world cup starts this week, and politics will be shunted aside in favour of the English football team...

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in de
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

 Mr Morden wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
Woo! We get to join the Imperialist club! At last we will be real Europeans.


By we do you mean Germany? - they had their imperial past just any other nation - African and other colonies were lost after the first world war.


I am aware of Germany's imperial past. I am Irish, the flag is a lie! (I live in Nuremberg, and married a German).

(Also my comment was tongue in cheek - Irish people were certainly happy enough to exterminate the indigenous people in Australia when they were deported there. We sort of inhabit a bit of an imperial netherworld where we were servants and victims of the British Empire.)

(Also also, "any" country? Most countries did not have global Empires. That is a pretty small club, really.)

DINLT: I want more evidence of Russias unfriendly actions toward us to convince those who have bought into the pro-Russian propaganda that Russia is our enemy these days. I wish it wasn't so but it is plainly the case. I want stronger economic sanctions on Russia until their economy is so badly weakened they wake up and realise that they can't keep playing silly buggers with international politics and that having the same corrupt despot in charge of your country for 18 years with no end in sight might not be the best way to go about things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/10 11:16:28


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
To return the topic to UK Politics, it appears that Leave.EU's main sponsor, Arron Banks, had multiple meetings with Russian officials during the run-up to the Brexit campaign.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/arron-banks-russia-brexit-meeting


I may be a Brexit supporter, but I'm happy to have a full investigation into Russian involvement in British politics. Our democracy is precious and needs to be defended against outside influence.

We could start by going after their dodgy money in London.

I've argued before that 40 years of Euro-Scepticism predates Putin, so I would argue that any Russian involvement would have been negligible on parts of British society that have always been hostile to the EU. Others will probably disagree.


These were never the people being targeted though. Those with passionate views one way or another are unlikely to change their views. The people targeted are the undecided and perhaps not giving it their full attention. Those that are swayed by the lies of £200m per week for the NHS, that can be swayed by "That seems a large number of people coming into the country and so forth". The people being targeted were never you or me. If there is underlying 'support' in the way Russia applied then it opens the question to the overall legitimacy of the referendum. People that were on that line that believe they were 'hoodwinked' by the establishment become more disillusioned and so forth.

And it is working. May's response to Trump at the G7 was bend over again and ask how deep he wants that special relationship to be again. It is putting a wedge between what were aligned allies and this is their strategic goal. Hence the concern of election meddling.

The thing is though, is anybody going to give two hoots for it? The world cup starts this week, and politics will be shunted aside in favour of the English football team...


Give it two weeks and it will be over and we can get back to more important things.

And in an exclusive....leaked video of Tory cabinet discussions on Wrexit!

https://twitter.com/gullyburrows/status/1005187613270167552 from
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/love-island-2018-brexit-hayley-trees_uk_5b1b87f8e4b0adfb82695492





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/10 11:16:13


"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

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Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Da Boss wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
Woo! We get to join the Imperialist club! At last we will be real Europeans.


By we do you mean Germany? - they had their imperial past just any other nation - African and other colonies were lost after the first world war.


I am aware of Germany's imperial past. I am Irish, the flag is a lie! (I live in Nuremberg, and married a German).

(Also my comment was tongue in cheek - Irish people were certainly happy enough to exterminate the indigenous people in Australia when they were deported there. We sort of inhabit a bit of an imperial netherworld where we were servants and victims of the British Empire.)

(Also also, "any" country? Most countries did not have global Empires. That is a pretty small club, really.)


Ah right I was not sure

Pretty much every nation that exisits or existed conquered others - agreed not globally but usually locally.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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Nuremberg

Hmmm. Well I do not think that is the same as Imperialism really. But I get the sense that we will definitely not agree and probably derail the thread if we discuss it.

   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

@whirwind.

Let's say for argument's sake that Russia did influence the referendum, it still doesn't detract from this fact: Parliament approved the referendum, voted through A50, and ultimately, if they chose, could stop Brexit tomorrow if they wanted. Russia can't be blamed for our MPs lacking a backbone.

As I've pointed out on numerous occasions, 70% of MPs back the EU and some do so passionately. If they believe EU membership is vital for Britain, they should have the courage of their convictions and keep the UK in the EU, and Remain supporters like you should point the finger at them for not doing so.


@Da Boss.

Britain and the West, so I'm including Ireland in this, should never roll up the white flag towards Russia. We should always defend ourselves against them.

None the less, our foreign policy towards Russia since the Cold War ended has been shocking, especially with regard to NATO in Eastern Europe.

We could have handled things a whole lot better, and there's no need to look for trouble where it doesn't exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Da Boss wrote:
Hmmm. Well I do not think that is the same as Imperialism really. But I get the sense that we will definitely not agree and probably derail the thread if we discuss it.


I'll also add that Britain did some bad things in Ireland, no question there, but if you go back further, the Vikings and the Normans didn't exactly make themselves popular in Ireland either. Or Britain for that matter.

Damn those Normans!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/10 11:28:10


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Da Boss wrote:
Hmmm. Well I do not think that is the same as Imperialism really. But I get the sense that we will definitely not agree and probably derail the thread if we discuss it.


Its an interesting point - had a wonder online and Imperialism seems to be defined like this or similar:

Imperialism is a policy that involves a nation extending its power by the acquisition of lands by purchase, diplomacy or military force.


So pretty much every nation in history and current.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/10 11:29:23


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Basically ‘don’t care about Law breaking by Leave.EU, or the likely interference of a foreign nation, despite craving ‘sovereignty’, because I got what I wanted and damn the consequences, which are already being blamed on everyone except those that voted for it’.

Right. Gotcha.

Imagine how outraged you’d be right now if you’d lost, and it turned out Remain had done the shady stuff Leave did, hmm?

But no. You got what you wanted, and thanks to your casual detachment from reality, that’s enough.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

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-

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Basically ‘don’t care about Law breaking by Leave.EU, or the likely interference of a foreign nation, despite craving ‘sovereignty’, because I got what I wanted and damn the consequences, which are already being blamed on everyone except those that voted for it’.

Right. Gotcha.

Imagine how outraged you’d be right now if you’d lost, and it turned out Remain had done the shady stuff Leave did, hmm?

But no. You got what you wanted, and thanks to your casual detachment from reality, that’s enough.


I'm not turning a blind eye here.

I'm calling for the full works: Royal Commissions, parliamentary inquiry, Sherlock Holmes if need be, into Russian involvement in British politics.

You and other Remain voters have long bemoaned the influence of the Daily Mail and the Sun on British politics. If agree with you that they have influence.

My argument has always been this: thanks to 40 years of media influence and Euro-Scepticism in Britain, there has always been a strong anti-EU faction in Britain, that has been around since the days before Putin had even filled in his KGB application form, never mind be Russian president.

anecdotal evidence: I've mentioned before that my elderly father and my elderly uncle voted Leave. They were around in the 1970s, and they voted against joining the EEC as well.

The idea that Putin got to people like that is, respectfully, hogwash.

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in de
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Nuremberg

Mr. Morden: OK. I think most things are more complicated than the google definition, personally, and I think that many scholars would disagree that all countries everywhere are "imperialist" but if you want to play the semantic game that is fine, and you have won.

DINLT: Perhaps NATO should have been disbanded after Russia became a democracy, but it didn`t exactly stay a democracy for long. Regardless, I have not seen the Dutch shooting down any Russian passenger jets, we have not annexed any parts of Russia, and we are not assassinating Russians or our own citizens in the streets of Russia using methods that can harm the entire public, so I reject any false equivalence between the EU and Russia. America is a different kettle of fish, there`s a lot of the pot calling the kettle black there.

Also, on the point of whether Putin "got to" anyone, okay that is impossible to conclusively prove. But it is clear he thinks the break up of the EU is in his interest, and he is happy with Brexit as an outcome because it weakens the EU and dramatically weakens the UK.

I think in the end all this bs he is going on with will rebound on Russia in an unpleasant way, though.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/10 11:53:16


   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Da Boss wrote:
Mr. Morden: OK. I think most things are more complicated than the google definition, personally, and I think that many scholars would disagree that all countries everywhere are "imperialist" but if you want to play the semantic game that is fine, and you have won.

DINLT: Perhaps NATO should have been disbanded after Russia became a democracy, but it didn`t exactly stay a democracy for long. Regardless, I have not seen the Dutch shooting down any Russian passenger jets, we have not annexed any parts of Russia, and we are not assassinating Russians or our own citizens in the streets of Russia using methods that can harm the entire public, so I reject any false equivalence between the EU and Russia. America is a different kettle of fish, there`s a lot of the pot calling the kettle black there.


If you want to find a better defination of that specfic word then fine? Might want to also look up passive agressive....

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in de
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

Arguing by word definition means you have won. You found that the word is defined in such a way as allows you to define all countries as Imperialist. Therefore you are correct and I am wrong.

What's wrong with me admitting that? You won because you found out that all countries are definitively imperialistic by using the google definition. There is surely no more to be said on this issue.

(I looked up Passive Aggressive! I am hoping to get installed as the new definition).

I am not sure, are you one of these people who believes the British Empire was a good thing? I don't want to waste my time arguing with you if that is the case, you see. Already too much wasted lifetime dedicated to that fruitless task.

   
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Spoiler:




"Lance Corporal William Windsor II, a goat in the Royal Welsh has been given a medal by the Estonian Government for his service to NATO"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Windsor_(goat)


In order to replace Billy, thirty members of 1st Battalion set off to Great Orme in Llandudno on 15 June 2009 at 03:00, hoping to catch the feral goats in a docile state.[24][25] A team led by Lieutenant-Colonel Nick Lock (Commanding Officer) included the goat major and several veterinarians.[26] Army spokesman Gavin O’Connor said, "We are looking for a goat which is calm under pressure and a team player".[26] During the selection of a replacement goat, the battalion helped to start an alternative vaccine method of birth control among the herd, since hormone implants that were previously employed to control numbers are no longer available.[27]

With some difficulty, a five-month-old was chosen, and assigned army number 25142301—which represents regiment number 2514, 23rd Regiment of Foot (the original name of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers), and 01 denoting the 1st Battalion.[25] The new goat will also be called William Windsor, beginning as a fusilier while being trained for military life.[24] He will receive a ration of two cigarettes per day, which he eats, but will not be permitted Guinness until he is older.[



The deployment to Cyprus with the 1st Battalion was Billy's first overseas posting, and despite being ordered to keep in line, he refused to obey.[13] He failed to keep in step,[16] and tried to headbutt a drummer.[17] The goat major, Lance Corporal Dai Davies, 22, from Neath, South Wales, was unable to keep him under control.[16]

Billy was charged with "unacceptable behaviour",[10] "lack of decorum" and "disobeying a direct order",[16] and had to appear before his commanding officer, Lieutenant-Colonel Huw James.[10][18] Following a disciplinary hearing, he was demoted to fusilier.[1][16] The change meant that other fusiliers in the regiment no longer had to stand to attention when Billy walked past, as they had to when he was a lance corporal.[13]

A Canadian animal rights group protested to the British Army, stating that he was merely "acting the goat", and should be reinstated.[10] Three months later, on 20 September at the same parade ground,[10] Billy regained his rank during the Alma Day parade which celebrates the Royal Welsh victory in the Crimean War.[10] Captain Simon Clarke said, "Billy performed exceptionally well, he has had all summer to reflect on his behaviour at the Queen's birthday and clearly earned the rank he deserves".[10]

Billy received his promotion from the colonel of the Royal Welsh Regiment, Brigadier Roderick Porter.[10] As a result of regaining his rank, he also regained his membership of the corporals' mess.[10]

Billy is not the first goat in the army to have troubles. At one time a royal goat was "prostituted" by being offered for stud services by the regiment's serving goat major to a Wrexham goat breeder.[7] First charged with lèse majesté,[19] the goat major was ultimately court-martialled under the lesser charge of "disrespect to an officer" and reduced in rank.[7] The goat major claimed he did it out of compassion for the goat, but this failed to impress the court.[7] Another royal fusilier goat earned the nickname "the rebel", after he butted a colonel while he was stooped over fixing his uniform's trouser-strap.[20] The incident was described as a "disgraceful act of insubordination."


uh huh.

perfectly normal.


perhaps our armed forces are not as formidable as one had thought.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/10 12:55:03


The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
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Frostgrave

We've got a long history of giving commissions andcranks to animals that did something to stand out during service.
   
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Somewhere in south-central England.

The regimental tradition is part of what gives the British Army it's esprit de corps.

Many is the fine parade involving foreigners which has been greatly enlivened by incidents of light infantry marching faster than the beat. or cavalry dismounting and taking tea when the national anthem is played. The inclusion of regimental animals can only add to the special atmosphere of the occasion.

Of course you can't spell regimental without mental.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

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Seneca Nation of Indians

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The regimental tradition is part of what gives the British Army it's esprit de corps.

Many is the fine parade involving foreigners which has been greatly enlivened by incidents of light infantry marching faster than the beat. or cavalry dismounting and taking tea when the national anthem is played. The inclusion of regimental animals can only add to the special atmosphere of the occasion.

Of course you can't spell regimental without mental.


Achem




Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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[MOD]
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Somewhere in south-central England.

Leave.EU donor Arron Banks 'must explain Russia link'

TL/DR: Arron Banks gave £12M to the Leave.EU campaign. He said he had one meeting with Russian officials but it's now been found out that he had three.

The Leave.EU campaign was fined the maximum possible sum under election law for falsifying its spending records. (In other words they cheated.)

The treasurer of the campaign is facing possible criminal charges.

Arron Banks and Dominic Cummings (strategist and manager, not treasurer) have both refused to appear before a parliamentary select committee to answer questions relevant to these matters.

Is it all just a witch hunt got up by Rabid Remainers?

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
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Leicester

Whilst I think the Russian angle is deeply concerning (and could have swayed the result, given how close it was), I think it’s the wrong hill to die on. Concentrating on what influence Russia had potentially undermines the key message; Brexit is bad for the UK, bad for Europe and bad for the Western Hemisphere (which is why the Russians are supporting it).

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 Zed wrote:
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Somewhere in south-central England.

Yes, that is true. But I believe the Remain cause is strong enough to fight on several fronts.


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
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Inspiring Icon Bearer




 Jadenim wrote:
Whilst I think the Russian angle is deeply concerning (and could have swayed the result, given how close it was), I think it’s the wrong hill to die on. Concentrating on what influence Russia had potentially undermines the key message; Brexit is bad for the UK, bad for Europe and bad for the Western Hemisphere (which is why the Russians are supporting it).


Doing exactly what Putin Russia wants on a major geopolitical issue conveys exactly that message.

If you want to be on the same boat as Putin question your motives and double and triple check any information you've been given
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Da Boss wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
Woo! We get to join the Imperialist club! At last we will be real Europeans.


By we do you mean Germany? - they had their imperial past just any other nation - African and other colonies were lost after the first world war.


I am aware of Germany's imperial past. I am Irish, the flag is a lie! (I live in Nuremberg, and married a German).

(Also my comment was tongue in cheek - Irish people were certainly happy enough to exterminate the indigenous people in Australia when they were deported there. We sort of inhabit a bit of an imperial netherworld where we were servants and victims of the British Empire.)

(Also also, "any" country? Most countries did not have global Empires. That is a pretty small club, really.)

DINLT: I want more evidence of Russias unfriendly actions toward us to convince those who have bought into the pro-Russian propaganda that Russia is our enemy these days. I wish it wasn't so but it is plainly the case. I want stronger economic sanctions on Russia until their economy is so badly weakened they wake up and realise that they can't keep playing silly buggers with international politics and that having the same corrupt despot in charge of your country for 18 years with no end in sight might not be the best way to go about things.


Be careful what you wish for, the Russians are not nearly as "gentle" as us Americans are. You push them far enough and they will roll right over you.
   
Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver






 thekingofkings wrote:

Be careful what you wish for, the Russians are not nearly as "gentle" as us Americans are. You push them far enough and they will roll right over you.


Tell that to the Afghans.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/11 08:30:50


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Courageous Grand Master




-

I've been doing some minor research and going over the books and notes I compiled on the EU referendum.

Three facts spring to mind:

1. Remain spent more money than Leave.

2. Banks' campaign was not the official Leave campaign.

3. David Cameron was about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

Yet only Leave lied about finances, and broke the law.
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I've been doing some minor research and going over the books and notes I compiled on the EU referendum.

Three facts spring to mind:

1. Remain spent more money than Leave.

2. Banks' campaign was not the official Leave campaign.

3. David Cameron was about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.



Why do you continue to deflect and divert from any criticism of the leave campaign? Is it not true that one of the leave campaigns broke the law? Is it not true that the leave campaign told outright lies? Please answer these two honestly and without attempting to divert or avoid answering.

 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
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Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator




 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I've been doing some minor research and going over the books and notes I compiled on the EU referendum.

Three facts spring to mind:

1. Remain spent more money than Leave.

2. Banks' campaign was not the official Leave campaign.

3. David Cameron was about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.



1) My shop makes considerably less money than Toys-R-Us. That doesn't make us a better business, or prove anything really. Having a lot of money and mispending it is considerably worse than having less money you spend well. Administrative competence does not a good cause make.

2) ... And?

3) Are you implying somehow that everyone on the remain side were exceptionally competent? Like T.May?

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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
@whirwind.

Let's say for argument's sake that Russia did influence the referendum, it still doesn't detract from this fact: Parliament approved the referendum, voted through A50, and ultimately, if they chose, could stop Brexit tomorrow if they wanted. Russia can't be blamed for our MPs lacking a backbone.

As I've pointed out on numerous occasions, 70% of MPs back the EU and some do so passionately. If they believe EU membership is vital for Britain, they should have the courage of their convictions and keep the UK in the EU, and Remain supporters like you should point the finger at them for not doing so.


To be fair Parliament approved a non-binding referendum, not a full blown hard right Theresa May wet dream. You are correct though that there are lot of 'cowardly' MPs that are putting their own careers and/or the party ahead of the good of the country. I don't vote for them and tend to point this out when anyone talks about it. However my influence is small and in our area PR is really needed to stop the endless stream of garbage Tory candidates.

However it doesn't detract from the issue that if Russia did meddle in the referendum as they likely did in the US election then we as a country are being manipulated and shouldn't there be consideration to reconsidering that decision?

I'd refer you to this New Scientist (17th Jan) article about the dangers we are traversing

Spoiler:


AH, the good old days, when predictions that “the end is nigh” were seen only on sandwich boards, and the doom-mongers who carried them were easy enough to ignore.
If only things had stayed so simple. The sandwich boards have mostly gone and the world is still here, but the gloomy predictions keep coming, and not all of them are based on creative interpretations of religious texts. Scientists, historians and politicians alike have begun to warn that Western culture is reaching a critical juncture. Cycles of inequality and resource use are heading for a tipping point that in many past civilisations precipitated political unrest, war and finally collapse.
For the most part, though, people are carrying on as usual, shopping for their next holiday or posing on social media. In fact, many people seem blissfully unaware that collapse might be imminent. Are Westerners doing the modern equivalent of sitting around eating grapes while the barbarians hammer on the doors? And more importantly, does science have any ideas about what is really going on, what might happen next and how people could turn things around?


The idea that Western power and influence is in gradual decline, perhaps as a prelude to a precipitous fall, has been around for a while. But it has gained a new urgency with recent political events, not least the election of US president Donald Trump. For some, his turning away from international commitments is part of fulfilling his promise to “make America great again” by concentrating on its own interests. For others, it’s a dangerous move that threatens to undermine the whole world order. Meanwhile, over in the old world, Europe is mired in its own problems.
Using science to predict the future isn’t easy, not least because both “collapse” and “Western civilisation” are difficult to define. We talk about the collapse of the Roman Empire in the middle of the first millennium, for example, but there is plenty of evidence that the empire existed in some form for centuries afterwards and that its influence lingers today. The end of Ancient Egypt was more of a change in the balance of power than a catastrophic event in which everyone died. So, when we talk about collapse, do we mean that people lose everything and go back to the dark ages? Or that it’s going to be socially and politically turbulent for a while?
Western civilisation is a similarly slippery concept. Roughly speaking, it covers parts of the world where the dominant cultural norms originated in Western Europe, including North America, Australia and New Zealand. Beyond that, though, the lines get blurrier. Other civilisations, such as China, were built on different sets of cultural norms, yet thanks to globalisation, defining where Western culture starts and ends is far from easy.

Despite these difficulties, some scientists and historians are analysing the rise and fall of ancient civilisations to look for patterns that might give us a heads-up on what is coming.
So is there any evidence that the West is reaching its end game? According to Peter Turchin, an evolutionary anthropologist at the University of Connecticut, there are certainly some worrying signs. Turchin was a population biologist studying boom-and-bust cycles in predator and prey animals when he realised that the equations he was using could also describe the rise and fall of ancient civilisations.
In the late 1990s, he began to apply these equations to historical data, looking for patterns that link social factors such as wealth and health inequality to political instability. Sure enough, in past civilisations in Ancient Egypt, China and Russia, he spotted two recurring cycles that are linked to regular era-defining periods of unrest.
“You’ve got to be very optimistic to think that this is just a blip on the screen”
One, a “secular cycle”, lasts two or three centuries. It starts with a fairly equal society, then, as the population grows, the supply of labour begins to outstrip demand and so becomes cheap. Wealthy elites form, while the living standards of the workers fall. As the society becomes more unequal, the cycle enters a more destructive phase, in which the misery of the lowest strata and infighting between elites contribute to social turbulence and, eventually, collapse. Then there is a second, shorter cycle, lasting 50 years and made up of two generations – one peaceful and one turbulent.
Looking at US history Turchin spotted peaks of unrest in 1870, 1920 and 1970. Worse, he predicts that the end of the next 50-year cycle, in around 2020, will coincide with the turbulent part of the longer cycle, causing a period of political unrest that is at least on a par with what happened around 1970, at the peak of the civil rights movement and protests against the Vietnam war.
This prediction echoes one made in 1997 by two amateur historians called William Strauss and Neil Howe, in their book The Fourth Turning: An American prophecy. They claimed that in about 2008 the US would enter a period of crisis that would peak in the 2020s – a claim said to have made a powerful impression on US president Donald Trump’s former chief strategist, Steve Bannon.
Turchin made his predictions in 2010, before the election of Donald Trump and the political infighting that surrounded his election, but he has since pointed out that current levels of inequality and political divisions in the US are clear signs that it is entering the downward phase of the cycle. Brexit and the Catalan crisis hint that the US is not the only part of the West to feel the strain.
As for what will happen next, Turchin can’t say. He points out that his model operates at the level of large-scale forces, and can’t predict exactly what might tip unease over into unrest and how bad things might get.
How and why turbulence sometimes turns into collapse is something that concerns Safa Motesharrei, a mathematician at the University of Maryland. He noticed that while, in nature, some prey always survive to keep the cycle going, some societies that collapsed, such as the Maya, the Minoans and the Hittites, never recovered.

To find out why, he first modelled human populations as if they were predators and natural resources were prey. Then he split the “predators” into two unequal groups, wealthy elites and less well-off commoners.
This showed that either extreme inequality or resource depletion could push a society to collapse, but collapse is irreversible only when the two coincide. “They essentially fuel each other,” says Motesharrei.
Part of the reason is that the “haves” are buffered by their wealth from the effects of resource depletion for longer than the “have-nots” and so resist calls for a change of strategy until it is too late.
This doesn’t bode well for Western societies, which are dangerously unequal. According to a recent analysis, the world’s richest 1 per cent now owns half the wealth, and the gap between the super-rich and everyone else has been growing since the financial crisis of 2008.
The West might already be living on borrowed time. Motesharrei’s group has shown that by rapidly using non-renewable resources such as fossil fuels, a society can grow by an order of magnitude beyond what would have been supported by renewables alone, and so is able to postpone its collapse. “But when the collapse happens,” they concluded, “it is much deeper.”

Joseph Tainter, an anthropologist at Utah State University, and author of The Collapse of Complex Societies, offers a similarly bleak outlook. He sees the worst-case scenario as a rupture in fossil fuel availability, causing food and water supplies to fail and millions to die within a few weeks.
That sounds disastrous. But not everyone agrees that the boom-and-bust model applies to modern society. It might have worked when societies were smaller and more isolated, critics say, but now? Can we really imagine the US dissolving in an internal war that would leave no one standing? There are armies of scientists and engineers working on solutions, and in theory we can avoid past societies’ mistakes. Plus, globalisation makes us robust, right?
This comes back to what we mean by collapse. Motesharrei’s group defines historical societies according to strict geographical limits, so that if some people survived and migrated to find new natural resources they would constitute a new society. By this criterion, even very advanced societies have collapsed irreversibly and the West could too. But it wouldn’t necessarily mean annihilation.
For that reason, many researchers avoid the word collapse, and talk instead about a rapid loss of complexity. When the Roman Empire broke up, new societies emerged, but their hierarchies, cultures and economies were less sophisticated, and people lived shorter, unhealthier lives. That kind of across-the-board loss of complexity is unlikely today, says Turchin, but he doesn’t rule out milder versions of it: the break-up of the European Union, say, or the US losing its empire in the form of NATO and close allies such as South Korea.
On the other hand, some people, such as Yaneer Bar-Yam of the New England Complex Systems Institute in Massachusetts, see this kind of global change as a shift up in complexity, with highly centralised structures such as national governments giving way to less centralised, overarching networks of control. “The world is becoming an integrated whole,” says Bar-Yam.
Some scientists, Bar-Yam included, are even predicting a future where the nation state gives way to fuzzy borders and global networks of interlocking organisations, with our cultural identity split between our immediate locality and global regulatory bodies.
However things pan out, almost nobody thinks the outlook for the West is good. “You’ve got to be very optimistic to think that the West’s current difficulties are just a blip on the screen,” says historian Ian Morris of Stanford University in California, author of Why the West Rules – For Now. So, can we do anything to soften the blow?
Turchin says that by manipulating the forces that fuel the cycles, by, for example, introducing more progressive taxes to address income equality and the exploding public debt, it might be possible to avert disaster. And Motesharrei thinks we should rein in population growth to levels his model indicates are sustainable. These exact levels vary over time, depending on how many resources are left and how sustainably – or otherwise – we use them.
The problem with these kinds of solutions, however, is that humans haven’t proved themselves to be great at playing the long game. New psychology research may help to explain why that is the case.
Cognitive scientists recognise two broad modes of thought – a fast, automatic, relatively inflexible mode, and a slower, more analytical, flexible one. Each has its uses, depending on the context, and their relative frequency in a population has long been assumed to be stable. David Rand, a psychologist at Yale University, though, argues that populations might actually cycle between the two over time.
Say a society has a transportation problem. A small group of individuals thinks analytically and invents the car. The problem is solved, not only for them but for millions of others besides, and because a far larger number of people have been relieved of thinking analytically – at least in this one domain – there is a shift in the population towards automatic thinking.
This happens every time a new technology is invented that renders the environment more hospitable. Once large numbers of people use the technology without foresight, problems start to stack up. Climate change resulting from the excess use of fossil fuels is just one example. Others include overuse of antibiotics leading to microbial resistance, and failing to save for retirement.
Jonathan Cohen, a psychologist at Princeton University who developed the theory with Rand, says it could help solve a long-standing puzzle regarding societies heading for ruin: why did they keep up their self-destructive behaviour even though the more analytical people must have seen the danger ahead? “The train had left the station,” says Cohen, and the forward-thinking folk were not steering it.
“Technological innovation may not be able to bail us out as it has in the past”
This is the first time anyone has attempted to link the evolution of societies with human psychology, and the researchers admit their model is simple, for now. And while Rand and his colleagues make no attempt to guide policy, they do think their model suggests a general direction we might look in for remedies. “Education has got to be part of the answer,” says Cohen, adding that there could be more emphasis on analytical thinking in the classroom.
But Tainter says trying to instil more forethought might be a pipe dream. If behavioural economics has taught us anything, he says, it is that human beings are much more emotional than rational when it comes to decision-making. He thinks a more pressing issue to tackle is the dwindling rate of invention relative to investment in R & D, as the world’s problems become harder to solve. “I foresee a pattern in the future where technological innovation is not going to be able to bail us out as it has in the past,” he says.
So, is the West really on the ropes? Perhaps. But ultimately its survival will depend on the speed at which people can adapt. If we don’t reduce our dependency on fossil fuels, tackle inequality and find a way to stop elites from squabbling among themselves, things will not end well. In Tainter’s view, if the West makes it through, it will be more by luck than by good judgement. “We are a species that muddles through,” he says. “That’s all we’ve ever done, and all we’ll ever do.”



In other business news there are some dire reports coming out today.


Manufacturing down 1.4% the largest fall in 5 years

Rolls Royce likely to get rid of 4000 staff

Poundworld collapses shedding 5000 jobs

Landrover Discovery manufacture moving abroad

Also more evidence that Islamophobia is rampant among the Tory party and they simply don't care. This from one of their own.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/baroness-warsi-says-islamophobia-very-widespread-in-tory-party_uk_5b1e3e45e4b09d7a3d74a828?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





UK

It's not even vaguely hidden, it's blatant;

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/pro-tory-facebook-group-filled-with-islamophobic-abuse

Apparently Jacob Rees Mogg joined "against his will". I doubt JRM is a dyed in the wool racist, but I imagine he may hold some "old fashioned" views about this sort of thing.

"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984 
   
 
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