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I'll hold out an olive branch to people.

We all get carried away sometimes. I've said things I shouldn't have. My apologies to anybody I've offended. Other people have said things they shouldn't have.

Brexit is obviously an important issue. Both sides think they're right. But let's have some gentlemanly conduct here.

We joined this site for our love of miniature wargaming

I suspect we didn't join up to debate EU directives...


Yeah, I may go over the top with my views on crime, but I don't like to see ordinary people suffer.

One of my relatives was murdered some years back in the 1990s.


It's a horrible thing to happen to a family, and I wouldn't wish it on anybody.

Hope that explains why I can get a bit hardcore on crime from time to time.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I think it should be a 3 option referendum with transferable alternative voting. The questions would be:

1. Stay in the EU after all.
1. Accept whatever deal the government has worked out if there actually is one.
1. Hard Brexit to WTO rules immediately. No mucking around.

A decision has to be made, even if it is a choice between crap, arse, and bollocks.

This. Assuming that the deal will basically be something along the lines as EFTA. I accept that we have to work with Europe. That’s a fact. I just don’t want to be sucked further in to the superstate. See I genuinely believe that the bigger a democracy gets, the more detached from the voters the leaders become, and the EU is my case in point (America gets it too).

I also would like EFTA as one of the options, but realistically the option will have to be whatever crock of gak the government comes up with, and that isn't going to be EFTA unless May and Corbyn completely change course.

To be realistic, we also have to remember that the EU has a part in these negotiations. They have already denied all the government customs malarkey plans as unworkable.

If the EU sticks to its guns, and the government doesn't change its plans, we will end up with two options -- Hard Brexit or Remain. That really will force a serious reconsideration of the whole thing.

So my local MP, Kelvin Hopkins, has tonight irreversibly lost my vote. He's Corbynite Labour and was one of the ones to propose him as Leader originally. His anti-EU tendencies are well-known. He is currently operating as an independent after allegations of improper conduct (#metoo) which he denies. Technically as the whip has been withdrawn he hasn't 'rebelled' against Labour so to speak, but for this self-avowed socialist to vote with a Tory government to try to force through a hard-right Brexit is unforgiveable.

Yes, I tend to agree with you.

The only thing is that Corbyn's position on Brexit is so weak and ill-defined that there isn't a clear lead for Labour MPs to follow.

(For disclosure, I'm a party member.)

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Dr Lee was elected on a manifesto pledge to leave the CU.

Today he moaned about Brexit being bad and something about his conscience.

Didn't seem to bother him last year though at the general election, did it?

To be fair there were multiple votes and reasons to quit today. We don't know which of those caused him to quit.

It could be that the idea of a cabinet being able to railroad whatever Wrexism porn fantasy whilst they are j**rking off over the Daily Facism was not his cup of, milky, tea (and he might have had enough of the sticky chairs in cabinet rooms).

If you recall one of the demands for why Wrexit was a good idea was Parliamentary Sovereignty. Today they are yet again trying to bury that part of our democracy.

Also just because someone believed something one year ago does not mean they cannot change their mind. In some ways I respect someone that puts their hand up and says "I made a mistake". I have much less respect when that person puts their own interests and parties ahead of the country.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Yes, I tend to agree with you.

The only thing is that Corbyn's position on Brexit is so weak and ill-defined that there isn't a clear lead for Labour MPs to follow.

(For disclosure, I'm a party member.)

I think he is quite happy to watch the Tories implode over the issue and give Labour the opportunity to never let the Tories forget it. The annoying and frustrating thing is that he is willing to sacrifice the country to get that.

Devolution bill gets torn up after being given only 15 minutes debate, all of which was used up entirely by a single filibustering Tory. No Scottish, Welsh, or NI MPs were heard from on a bill that allows Westminster to take back any devolved powers without consultation. Which makes The Vow look even more laughable than it did 24 hours ago.

All SNP, Plaid, one LD, Caroline Lucas, and Dennis Skinner voted against. Remaining Labour MPs abstained.

Unsurprisingly, it doesn’t even make the politics front page of the BBC website.

Extraordinary.

Still, on the plus side, it probably will drive up the pressure for independence.

It was such a mad day in UK and international politics, and the fun goes on today...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
But! But! BUT!!!

THEWILLOFTHEPEOPLE

Your allies in the Commons are cowards. That's the bottom line.

To hear them bleat about a newspaper calling them a nasty name is risible.


If they as MPs love the EU so much, then back the EU and answer for your decision next election.


But they don't have the guts to do that.

The nasty names in the papers cause death threats and abuse. With one MP already dead I don't blame them for backing down; both you and I would.

You're at least as much to blame as them; you and your brethren are why the MPs cant kill this off. You voted for it with no concern for the consequences.

nfe wrote:
Devolution bill gets torn up after being given only 15 minutes debate, all of which was used up entirely by a single filibustering Tory. No Scottish, Welsh, or NI MPs were heard from on a bill that allows Westminster to take back any devolved powers without consultation. Which makes The Vow look even more laughable than it did 24 hours ago.

All SNP, Plaid, one LD, Caroline Lucas, and Dennis Skinner voted against. Remaining Labour MPs abstained.

Unsurprisingly, it doesn’t even make the politics front page of the BBC website.

That’s disgusting.

Pretty par for the course for Unionists. Sadly. There are plenty of examples.

The funny thing is, all they have to do is govern competently in a way that treats each area fairly and they would kill off nationalism. Unfortunately, Westminster never learns.

May made it clear she wants to kill off devolution and bring all the power back to Westminster, so despite promises to the contrary it was inevitable.

If the United Kingdom falls apart, it will be well deserved I am afraid.

Unbelievable how tone deaf and narrow minded the Tories are on this topic.

I am more and more thinking that is what will happen.

The majority of NI are pro-EU and given a hard border their majority opinion shifts in favour of unification with Eire.

Scotland is shaping up for another referendum. This time I think the Brexit issue will swing it for them.

IDK what could happen with Wales. The last time they were consulted, it was about 84% against independence, and I don't know how much that may have changed.

Herzlos wrote:
May made it clear she wants to kill off devolution and bring all the power back to Westminster, so despite promises to the contrary it was inevitable.

No, she's made clear she wants to bring all the power to the Conservative and Unionist Party. Yesterday's vote made it clear that leaving power to Westminster is the last thing the Government is interested in.


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 Da Boss wrote:
If the United Kingdom falls apart, it will be well deserved I am afraid.

Unbelievable how tone deaf and narrow minded the Tories are on this topic.

In the Scottish referendum, I voted No. Largely because the question of Scotland's membership of the EU was unclear. I'd rather be part of both the United Kingdom and the EU, but if forced to choose only one, the EU is the better option. If Scotland goes its own way and joins the EU, then my apologies to those of you left in Airstrip One. Still, if Northumberland and Cumbria want to tag along, I'm sure that'll be OK.

So the Speaker just threw the SNP Westminster leader out of the House of Commons.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44467306

Followed by the rest of the SNP in protest.

The "House do sit in private" thing seems... arcane. Somebody must have been up all night looking up that little spanner to throw in the works. But at the same time it shows that the SNP (understandably) very angry about how little debate there was yesterday.

Interestingly, insofar as gov.uk parliamentary traditions factsheet goes, the speaker must call a division immediately on a sit in private request. He can’t delay it till the end of the session.

I’m sure he knew how it was going to go, and it’s a stunt, but it’s gotten the disgrace of a ‘debate’ conducted last night all over the press when it was totally ignored previously - though I note that almost everyone is reducing the grievance to ‘not enough time to debate’ which is rather less serious than what has actually happened.

It's all going to gak, really, isn't it.

THEWILLOFTHEPEOPLE is being used again and again to justify whatever the government and/or Brexiteers want to get away with.

Meanwhile everyone knows that the majority of the people do not support a Hard Brexit and would rather have EFTA or similar.

How is this will to be expressed?

Do as I say not what i do.




Listen to this :
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/listeners-labelled-call-from-a-ukipper-greatest/

"They say 'We must have the right to apply the brake if it becomes absolutely obvious that we're driving into a burning building.'

"And you say 'No, even if we're driving into a burning building, we must absolutely not have a brake'?"

Philip responded: "Yes, I agree.

James then asked: "You did hear the words that came out of my mouth, right?"

https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1006857617321361408

.. May's face !

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/jun/13/paul-dacre-warns-against-softening-daily-mail-brexit-stance

“Support for Brexit is in the DNA of both the Daily Mail and, more pertinently, its readers,” said Dacre.

Yes Paul, along with bigotry, hypocrisy, and an unhealthy interest in young starlets, nearly all grown up, dressing far too provocatively for their tender years etc etc.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's all going to gak, really, isn't it.

THEWILLOFTHEPEOPLE is being used again and again to justify whatever the government and/or Brexiteers want to get away with.

Meanwhile everyone knows that the majority of the people do not support a Hard Brexit and would rather have EFTA or similar.

How is this will to be expressed?

The will of May to be expressed? That would be ensuring anyone that disagrees with her is housed in Grenfell tower like buildings and then let lack of safety controls remove the problem for her?

UK shut out of Galileo project.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

Ha ha ha!

Arron Banks says Brexit is exhausting and [he] may leave politics

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/13/arron-banks-may-leave-politics-says-brexit-is-tedious

Thanks. Please close the door on your way out.

Mass revolt of Labour MPs as Corbyn forbids UK membership of EEA.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jun/13/brexit-parliament-wont-be-allowed-to-take-charge-of-talks-in-no-deal-scenario-minister-tells-tory-rebels-politics-live

We certainly live in interesting times!

It's a pity that politics isn't a spectator sport but something that will affect our lives and our children's for decades to come.

Which EU members voted to lock us out of Galileo?

And I take it they won’t be returning the money we contributed?

Honestly, if they don’t trust us anymore, maybe we should just leave NATO while we’re at it.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Which EU members voted to lock us out of Galileo?

And I take it they won’t be returning the money we contributed?

Honestly, if they don’t trust us anymore, maybe we should just leave NATO while we’re at it.

Well said.

They trust our money, trust our troops in Baltic EU member states, and naturally, they trust the intelligence they get from our security services, which let us not forget, receives extensive cooperation from American intelligence services.


And yet they accuse us of cherry picking, and something about cakes and eating them...


In all honesty, I would tell them to feth off, bring back our troops and end intelligence sharing and co-operation with the whole damn lot of them.

Aye. Just goes to show that countries don’t have friends. Only interests. And I don’t think it’s in our interest to pay for the defence of nations via NATO who so vehemently distrust us. Unless they agree to return the money.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Just goes to show that countries don’t have friends. Only interests.

Check out this quote from the relevant Guardian article

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

EU diplomats were quick to point out that the commission is not blocking the UK’s military from access to Galileo’s secure signal, just proprietary knowledge of its codes, design and development.

Paris once said that Britain would happily fight to the last Frenchman in its conduct of the war...

Well, it seem like the EU is happy for British troops to die to protect Juncker's drinks cabinet, but is not to keen on us being involved in any other way.

As I've said before, I'll take my chances with the Yanks. They like us, or they're really good at pretending they like us. Either way, I don't care.

It has to be better than this snub from the EU.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Check out this quote from the relevant Guardian article

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

EU diplomats were quick to point out that the commission is not blocking the UK’s military from access to Galileo’s secure signal, just proprietary knowledge of its codes, design and development.

You realise that is the exact same situation with the US GPS system?

Delays to the project will only increase the cost. If the UK wanted access to the project it shouldn't have voted for Brexit.

This is another thing that was pointed out before by all parties involved and ignored by people like you DINLT. You cannot be angry at such developments, you voted directly for them.

5 billion to build our own system sounds...strangely cheap.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Check out this quote from the relevant Guardian article

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

EU diplomats were quick to point out that the commission is not blocking the UK’s military from access to Galileo’s secure signal, just proprietary knowledge of its codes, design and development.

You realise that is the exact same situation with the US GPS system?

Delays to the project will only increase the cost. If the UK wanted access to the project it shouldn't have voted for Brexit.

This is another thing that was pointed out before by all parties involved and ignored by people like you DINLT. You cannot be angry at such developments, you voted directly for them.

It has also been pointed on millions of occasions that the vast majority of EU members are also NATO members.

The UK is not leaving NATO.

It will be fun watching Brussels try to square this circle...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Which EU members voted to lock us out of Galileo?

And I take it they won’t be returning the money we contributed?

Honestly, if they don’t trust us anymore, maybe we should just leave NATO while we’re at it.

Well said.

They trust our money, trust our troops in Baltic EU member states, and naturally, they trust the intelligence they get from our security services, which let us not forget, receives extensive cooperation from American intelligence services.


And yet they accuse us of cherry picking, and something about cakes and eating them...


In all honesty, I would tell them to feth off, bring back our troops and end intelligence sharing and co-operation with the whole damn lot of them.

There's no cherry picking here. They are applying the same rules that apply to every other third party that wishes to be included in the project. The US also do not allow us to have access to the details of GPS, only they have that access. There's no difference here.

This was warned about at the time of the vote. We will not have the same level of access to military secrets when outside the club. We will still be able to use it (in the same way we can use GPS) but we will simply won't have the same control over the data we receive.

I find it slightly bewildering that people that voted to Leave, said they don't care about the consequences as long as we made our own decisions because the EU wasn't democratic. Then complain that the EU made a democratic decision amongst the states that they would stick to the same rules and in the end look to supporting the EU members primarily which they are there to represent. It's almost like you still want the same access to the things you like and abandon those bits you don't like.

I repeat. *THIS WAS WARNED ABOUT AT THE TIME OF THE VOTE*.

You can't now whinge that the cake you wanted that was never there isn't there now and that those hi-tech engineers and scientists you value so highly will be leaving for more accomodating climates.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
5 billion to build our own system sounds...strangely cheap.

It may not matter anyway about anybody's satellite. Solar flares seem to be increasing these days. The Sun, that ball of fire in the sky, as opposed to the rag of a newspaper, is going through one of its periodical 'migraine' cycles.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

We will not have the same level of access to military secrets when outside the club.

Yeah, but that NATO club we're still members off, just so happens to be next door, literally, to the EU club...

If the gak hits the fan in Europe, it will be a tad tricky to coordinate defence with a UK military that's been locked out of secure communications...

Like I say, will be fun to see how the EU tries to square this circle...