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 Future War Cultist wrote:
Is May’s plan basically efta? I haven’t had a chance to read it.

May's plan is still a fudge. Changes in tone and wording but other than that it lacks precision and detailed language. Too many weasel words.

For example: "common rulebook". The whole idea of the common market is that rules may and do change, that's why there needs to be ECJ oversight. Worst of all is that they know that, and they added a nonsensic phrase trying to reassure themselves like "these rules are relatively stable". No, they don't.

Still, let's wait for that white book and see. This is just a glorified press release.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Well, you may as well start a campaign to get us back into the EU, and whilst you're at it, you can put my name down on the paper.

Hell, If we're staying in the EU anyway, we may as well try and salvage our rebate and opt outs back and grab a chair at the commission table.

If we're lucky, the EU might be in a generous mood.

Feth me, a 40 billion down payment and 2 years of bollocks just to end up back where we started...

If I were to vent my true feelings about the wretched and treacherous snakes that pass as the Tory party, I'd be banned from dakka.

They have been nothing but a millstone around this country's neck for 200 years!

May they rot in hell.

Welcome to the stance I've taken from the start. Brexit could work, with a plan, but we're as well staying in and wasting our money on something else.

Im glad you've seen through the bs!


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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Who seriously thinks that the free movement of money, goods and people benefits the working-classes of Europe?

Me and any working class person who took advantage of it. As a socialist I'm all for the EU. It's do it a better socialist job than the UK is


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I think the big question is: does May think the EU will accept any of this gak? From what I can tell most of this was already ruled out

It's been mentioned before, but maybe if England do lift the World Cup, it might go a long way to unite the country behind something positive rather than the relentless negative bs of politics, and in particular Brexit.

 r_squared wrote:
It's been mentioned before, but maybe if England do lift the World Cup, it might go a long way to unite the country behind something positive rather than the relentless negative bs of politics, and in particular Brexit.

I hope not can you imagine the s*n headlines?

 r_squared wrote:


Bizarrely, an ardent EU supporter has provided the only real, workable plan to withdraw ourselves in an orderly and agreeable fashion. I would actually have voted leave, if this was the way we were going to do it.

However, it's too long term for the electorate, and doesn't also carry the immediate satisfaction of telling the Tories and Europe to go feth itself, which is why it'd probably ever work.

Well done anyway chap, it's a shame it's a bit long winded to stick on the side of a bus.

Democracy is both a thing to be valued and a curse. It should be that the people decide how the country is run. However that becomes a problem when the options are limited to a few which for a fair number are self serving and keen to pander to the populace rather than argue for rational responses. China successfully achieved a change in their direction, but at what cost? Human rights are ignored, students shot, people that object to the government disappear and are re-educated and they have effectively given themselves an expansionist dictator. However they had a plan and stuck to it. The populace needs to vote for better politicians. The politiicians have to recognise that they are pretty rubbish at what they do and find a way to ensure that future generations of politicians really know what they are doing (or are willing to listen and argue even if it is against demagogue style thinking).



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Deadnight wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Nobody is seeing the bigger picture here, and this is what I've been warning about for 2 years.

Pot. Kettle. Black. You are self righteous. You are the zealous ideologue that is blind to the bigger picture, because you are so obsessed with 'headlines' that you don't care about any of the details and intricacies involved in this mess or who will suffer as a result. All you care about are sound bites and none for pragmatism or practicalities.

Can we not do this? Fine we have different views to DINLT and we can argue those views. However people can be just as passionate about one side as the other for whatever reason. Kicking someone when they are down doesn't win an argument. It's more a way of encouraging someone to fight back irrationally because they are backed into a corner...



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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Me? I doubt if I'll ever vote again. I'll pull up the drawbridge, withdraw from doing my civic duty, and let the country get on with it.
The money men have won, as they always do, and I say to everybody on this thread, be they Remain or Leave, that's bad, because they don't care about us, only the bottom line...

I would strongly encourage you not to do this. It may seem bad now and that things have not turned out how you wished, but there is never a reason to stop putting your voice forward. That sort of approach will keep the Tories in forever!



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 reds8n wrote:


Almost unbelievable.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/this-is-what-the-eu-really-thinks-about-theresa-mays-new?utm_term=.fexOqOgEb#.aqkJ3JAXd

But, privately, the 27 EU leaders have already been informed by Brussels that May’s plans would cross red lines the leaders set out in the EU’s negotiating position, BuzzFeed News can reveal.
The EU27’s initial assessment, the details of which have been seen by BuzzFeed News, is that proposals included in the paper – such as remaining in the single market for goods without the single market’s other freedoms (people, services and capital), and a clear legal oversight mechanism – are unacceptable.
Brussels also feels that May’s new customs proposal, which would see Britain collect duties on behalf of the EU, looks a lot like the customs partnership they have already rejected, according to the assessment.
A pledge by the UK to not let standards on the environment, climate change, social, employment and consumer protection fall below their current levels, is welcome by Brussels, but EU capitals have been warned that it requires further detailed assessment.

good times.

It was never going to work based on the EU categories. If you want a customs union then you have to have freedom of movement. They aren't going to set up a new special customs union just for us. Even in her own interviews May doesn't sound convinced, I think she knows that she have to adjust again at which point the argument for leaving becomes lessened and a new vote becomes much louder. It's still a fudge to keep the arch Brexiters in cabinet at least not all walking out. I just don't think she is yet ready to see the Tories fall apart one way or another.

@Whirlwind.

Thanks for the kind words

But I will say this. I have never voted Tory in my life, and wouldn't do so, even if they paid me

but the bulk of my life has been spent under Tory governments

I don't think my no show at a General Election will change that.

There's a website where you type in the year of your birth and it tells you how long you've had Tory governments in your life.


Let's pretend for a minute that the Tory Brexit negotiation debacle never happened, that we're still in the EU. There is still some of the worst incompetence you are ever likely to see from a Tory government: Windrush, Universal Credit, NHS, foreign policy, defence etc etc


But I will bet every penny I own that millions will trot out at the next election and cast a vote for that shower of horsegak.


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 r_squared wrote:
It's been mentioned before, but maybe if England do lift the World Cup, it might go a long way to unite the country behind something positive rather than the relentless negative bs of politics, and in particular Brexit.

What does an England WC win do for Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland??

Not voting means the Tories need less votes to win, and not voting also means you lose any right to complain about the consequences of a vote.

The brexit vote has had serious repercussions; political careers have been shot down, the Tories have talked themselves into a corner and people are a lot more politically aware.

We've also wasted millions of quid, thousands of hours and lost hundreds of jobs because of it. It's shown quite clearly what can happen when you take an electorate for granted and call them stupid. Or lie enough.

So your brexit vote meant something, even if you're not getting the brexit you want and I fully support your right to have done so.

It's funny, there was an article the other day about if NAFTA falls apart, should Canada try to get into the EU? I know we aren't technically in Europe, but it sounds like a great idea to me. At least you Europeans seem to have social goals more in line with Canada's than the United States does!

 Crazyterran wrote:
It's funny, there was an article the other day about if NAFTA falls apart, should Canada try to get into the EU? I know we aren't technically in Europe, but it sounds like a great idea to me. At least you Europeans seem to have social goals more in line with Canada's than the United States does!

That is an interesting question actually. Canada would probably be a great fit for the EU. They might even be able to be a bit of a counterweight to Germany. So when I went to Google to look it up, I typed in "can Canada" and '"can Canada join the EU?" popped up immediately. Apparently it is not as crazy as it sounds at first.
I think France especially would be happy to have Canada in. They'd finally have someone to talk to apart from the Belgians.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


But I will say this. I have never voted Tory in my life, and wouldn't do so, even if they paid me

but the bulk of my life has been spent under Tory governments

I don't think my no show at a General Election will change that.

Every vote matters, even if it is to show that increasing reason that we need PR as a way of representing the country in a better way. Amanda Rudd only got in with 300 votes. Suppose you were in the same situation in a couple of years, would you not curse yourself for not voting if they squeaked through and get the MP in even though it unfairly reflects the voting proportions? If you look back to some of your previous arguments that you want the country to grow and develop and be a world leader. We can never have that if the people that can actually change the status quo 'give up'. Sometimes you do get knocked to the ground and into the dirt. The best thing to do is dust yourself off and try again, learn from the experience and adapt so you can get a country you want.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
It's been mentioned before, but maybe if England do lift the World Cup, it might go a long way to unite the country behind something positive rather than the relentless negative bs of politics, and in particular Brexit.

What does an England WC win do for Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland??

Not much I guess, however, England's disatisfaction is what lead the whole union to this point.

Bread and Circuses.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:People often ask me why I was anti-EU, but as a long time socialist, it's pretty self-evident.

Who seriously thinks that the free movement of money, goods and people benefits the working-classes of Europe?

I get what you mean but the free movement of money or goods was already kinda there (just with some hurdles). From the moment it was viable to outsource production of goods to Asia, companies used that to their benefit while workers everywhere had a hard time doing the same. The free movement of people is good for the people overall and at least something.

The EU as a bloc is about the economy first but at least it doesn't completely forget that there also people somewhere down there doing their thing and trying to survive. Without the EU, companies would have managed to get something like free movement of goods and money working while bigger economic blocs would have pushed each and every individual European country around and gotten their benefits while we would have gotten nothing out of it.

Yes, the EU could be better in a lot of ways but even as it is right now it's so much better than if it didn't exists.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44755049 Ha the unified front couldn't even last the weekend. Looks like Boris is already leaking his objections to Mays plan.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44755049 Ha the unified front couldn't even last the weekend. Looks like Boris is already leaking his objections to Mays plan.

Well the wrexiteers aren't happy unless it leads to complete collapse of uk. That's their goal, that's what wrexiteers voted for. Willingly.

tneva82 wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44755049 Ha the unified front couldn't even last the weekend. Looks like Boris is already leaking his objections to Mays plan.

Well the wrexiteers aren't happy unless it leads to complete collapse of uk. That's their goal, that's what wrexiteers voted for. Willingly.

You know, speaking from south of the Channel, I find those guys kind of hilarious. Jeanne d'Arc and Napoleon sure are grinning right now.

tneva82 wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44755049 Ha the unified front couldn't even last the weekend. Looks like Boris is already leaking his objections to Mays plan.

Well the wrexiteers aren't happy unless it leads to complete collapse of uk. That's their goal, that's what wrexiteers voted for. Willingly.

Businesses don't seem to happy either with the option and have stated that they think it will makes things overly bureacratic and costly.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/07/theresa-mays-eu-deal-under-fire-from-hardline-brexiters

It's starting to unravel already (after 1 day) and there are concerns that not all of the EU will go with it as it is still trying to carve up the 4 fundamental principles of the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/07/eu-diplomats-theresa-may-brexit-compromise

Expect Piffle Johnson to try and get fired again he wants of the hook so bad you can see the desperation dripping of him.

Mr 4hrs Thick as Mince will likely resign on "principle" because it turns out brexit is more work than he wants.

That invertebrate Gove is likely going to have to stick it out as Murdoch's representation in the cabinet.

The rest are likely to follow Lord Haw Haw Moggy and just snipe and bluster from the sidelines that the country must be destroyed as it is the Willy of the peeple and the vulture capitalist.

Fartgas will wail and nash about traitors while running round the world supporting Nazis at Putin's behest.

Well, we have certainly come back round to the original voting choice.

Looking back, was there really an alternative other than voting to stay? Entrenched EU Skeptics have always bemoaned technocratic adherence to EU rules as dogmatic And they are right for the wrong reasons!

The Irish border status is the only card available for negotiation and what if the EU simply decides that its far better for the whole that a full exit leads to an internationally accepted norm of border controls/hard border?

I'm seriously starting to swing round to a EFTA/EEA stop gap solution.

It's not my first choice, but it's clear that the nation has forgotten how to govern, and that the current crop of chancers and spivs are not up to the job.

Two years, two fething years down the drain.

I'm prepared to play the long game for Brexit (as it stands I don't have much choice anyway) so I'm cutting my cloth accordingly to fit the new reality.

EFTA/EEA will buy us some time, keep the Irish border calm and peaceful

and as long as it's a staging post to a gradual Brexit, then fine by me. Hopefully, these current incompetents will be swept away by then.

So there you have it. Not exactly a Damascus conversion from me. More an attempt to salvage something from this Brexit debacle.




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 Crazyterran wrote:
It's funny, there was an article the other day about if NAFTA falls apart, should Canada try to get into the EU? I know we aren't technically in Europe, but it sounds like a great idea to me. At least you Europeans seem to have social goals more in line with Canada's than the United States does!

Well, you are a fellow NATO member and ally to a lot of EU countries, so there's already some co-operation there.




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GoatboyBeta wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44755049 Ha the unified front couldn't even last the weekend. Looks like Boris is already leaking his objections to Mays plan.

Bojo is a busted flush. He bottled it. Again.


From what Robert Peston's being saying, Bojo was full of bluster and hot air, weasel Gove slithered in behind May, and Liam Fox got tangled up in detail from a vague promise from May about trade deals or something.


Fething useless the lot of them


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SeanDrake wrote:

Expect Piffle Johnson to try and get fired again he wants of the hook so bad you can see the desperation dripping of him.

Mr 4hrs Thick as Mince will likely resign on "principle" because it turns out brexit is more work than he wants.

That invertebrate Gove is likely going to have to stick it out as Murdoch's representation in the cabinet.

The rest are likely to follow Lord Haw Haw Moggy and just snipe and bluster from the sidelines that the country must be destroyed as it is the Willy of the peeple and the vulture capitalist.

Fartgas will wail and nash about traitors while running round the world supporting Nazis at Putin's behest.

None of them have got the guts to stand up for Brexit.

It's true what they say: if you want something done, you have to do it yourself.

The EFTA/EEA route breaks the red lines.

Also, it's doubtful the EU, EFTA and EEA countries will want to spend the effort to negotiate a second, part-way solution which demands immediate renegotiation for a third, full solution. Plus, at the moment, the eventual 3rd solution the UK is currently proposing isn't acceptable to the EU anyway.

I would rather be in EFTA/EEA than completely out, but I think it needs to be a final position, not an interim.

While we're on the subject of the current generation of politicians being incompetents, make note that it's the Brexiteers who are the incompetents. They haven't offered a single realistic point for Brexit, they've just carped and moaned about everything everyone else has said or done.

Bear in mind the Brexiteers ave had 45 years to get to this point. What makes you think another 2 years will improve things

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The EFTA/EEA route breaks the red lines.

Also, it's doubtful the EU, EFTA and EEA countries will want to spend the effort to negotiate a second, part-way solution which demands immediate renegotiation for a third, full solution. Plus, at the moment, the eventual 3rd solution the UK is currently proposing isn't acceptable to the EU anyway.

I would rather be in EFTA/EEA than completely out, but I think it needs to be a final position, not an interim.

While we're on the subject of the current generation of politicians being incompetents, make note that it's the Brexiteers who are the incompetents. They haven't offered a single realistic point for Brexit, they've just carped and moaned about everything everyone else has said or done.

Bear in mind the Brexiteers ave had 45 years to get to this point. What makes you think another 2 years will improve things

I agree, EFTA/EEA is not without its own hurdles, and if I'm being honest, I wouldn't blame the Norwegians for being bitter. We did abandon them back in the day after all.

EFTA/EEA can be all things to men and women. It could be sold to the Brexit side as a staging post to a complete de-coupling with the EU, and Remainers could see it as a springboard back to the EU. Both sides could claim victory, no bad thing given the 52/48 split.

The numbers add up in The Commons, it keeps Ireland happy for a few years, and calms some nerves in the world of business.

May's red lines are gone, and even so, the Brexiteers have shown the don't have the backbone to fight anyway.

Still, it's better than the Checkers solution of pulling magic beans from their rears and claiming it as a victory. It's already been shot down in flames by the EU, and it was only ever an attempt to stop the Tories from sliding into civil war.

We could have had two solid years of hiring, building, and making the necessary expansions needed for a no deal solution, whilst negotiating with the EU, That would have given us a solid fallback and strenghethed our hand.

Instead, we got a Tory party negotiating with itself.

And lest we forget, Cameron was on your side.

No, Cameron was on the side of recovering voters lost by the Tories to UKIP.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The EFTA/EEA route breaks the red lines.

Also, it's doubtful the EU, EFTA and EEA countries will want to spend the effort to negotiate a second, part-way solution which demands immediate renegotiation for a third, full solution. Plus, at the moment, the eventual 3rd solution the UK is currently proposing isn't acceptable to the EU anyway.

I would rather be in EFTA/EEA than completely out, but I think it needs to be a final position, not an interim.

While we're on the subject of the current generation of politicians being incompetents, make note that it's the Brexiteers who are the incompetents. They haven't offered a single realistic point for Brexit, they've just carped and moaned about everything everyone else has said or done.

Bear in mind the Brexiteers ave had 45 years to get to this point. What makes you think another 2 years will improve things

I agree, EFTA/EEA is not without its own hurdles, and if I'm being honest, I wouldn't blame the Norwegians for being bitter. We did abandon them back in the day after all.

EFTA/EEA can be all things to men and women. It could be sold to the Brexit side as a staging post to a complete de-coupling with the EU, and Remainers could see it as a springboard back to the EU. Both sides could claim victory, no bad thing given the 52/48 split.

The numbers add up in The Commons, it keeps Ireland happy for a few years, and calms some nerves in the world of business.

May's red lines are gone, and even so, the Brexiteers have shown the don't have the backbone to fight anyway.

Still, it's better than the Checkers solution of pulling magic beans from their rears and claiming it as a victory. It's already been shot down in flames by the EU, and it was only ever an attempt to stop the Tories from sliding into civil war.

We could have had two solid years of hiring, building, and making the necessary expansions needed for a no deal solution, whilst negotiating with the EU, That would have given us a solid fallback and strenghethed our hand.

Instead, we got a Tory party negotiating with itself.

And lest we forget, Cameron was on your side.

Honestly you did allready abandon the EFTA once, chances are, especially in Switzerland, pretty high that they will not accept you back.
Considering that ratification in Switzerland takes place via obligatory referendum and that the UK would be more disadvantagous for an allready strained relationship with the EU you have allready one Nation that will not accept you back in about 55% of the case.
Norway could still be bitter. Lichtenstein is basically another Kanton of Switzerland and Island is, well Island.
Basically EFTA is not a secure option, heck i would not even regard it as a option for a plan B/C.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Basically EFTA is not a secure option, heck i would not even regard it as a option for a plan B/C.

Can something be considered as a plan B or C if there is no plan A?(and no, crossing your fingers and wishing really really hard for a magical technolgy fix does not count as a plan)

Seems July could be the end of May.....confidence vote being callled by Tories.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Seems July could be the end of May.....confidence vote being callled by Tories.

They'll be finished. No confidence vote will lead to pressure for a general election. Euro skeptics and the right of the party always fail to understand their past history.

Oh well.

They haven't got the guts. The time to walk was Friday night, but they bottled it. Again.

They are now relying on the EU to do their dirty work for them, and shoot this down in flames on the basis that the four freedoms are non-negotiable.

But if the EU are smart and devious, they will string this along for a few months to keep May afloat, then hit us in the Autumn with a triple whammy of demands, right on the eve of the deadline.


May being May will roll up the white flag, and the EU will well and truly have us over a barrel.


That is my great fear: that the EU might pretend to be flexible on the 4 freedoms. In private, we know they never could be, but if they're devious with faux public announcements, they could really hit us in the nuts.

The EU has bigger fish to fry than pissant UK's nuts.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
They haven't got the guts. The time to walk was Friday night, but they bottled it. Again.

They are now relying on the EU to do their dirty work for them, and shoot this down in flames on the basis that the four freedoms are non-negotiable.

But if the EU are smart and devious, they will string this along for a few months to keep May afloat, then hit us in the Autumn with a triple whammy of demands, right on the eve of the deadline.


May being May will roll up the white flag, and the EU will well and truly have us over a barrel.


That is my great fear: that the EU might pretend to be flexible on the 4 freedoms. In private, we know they never could be, but if they're devious with faux public announcements, they could really hit us in the nuts.

It pays the EU to be straight in their negotiations. The government is causing their own downfall, Cameron got out when the getting was good!


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 Kilkrazy wrote:
The EU has bigger fish to fry than pissant UK's nuts.

Playing it straight sends a stronger message to the member states especially those with governments whos members are vocal.

If only the Tories weren’t ‘Party First And Only’