UK & EU Politics Thread

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**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Vaktathi wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

As a libertarian, I have no problem with people taking the stuff.

But I'm always uneasy with people being drugged up or drunk, for the sole reason that a sedated population is not a population that gets angry or pays attention to what the government is doing. Bread and circuses and all that.

That some politicians support this is reason enough to make uneasy about their ulterior motives.
While I cannot speak to UK culture on marijuana, living in Portland, where we have more marijuana dispensaries than Starbucks coffee shops, the city definitively remains one of the most politically active cities in the US, if anything its become even more politically active over the issue.

I'll say this to Herzlos as well as to yourself. I'm obviously not against people drinking or taking drugs, I'd be a total hypocrite if I were, but I sometimes feel that as a society, we take our eyes off the ball sometimes, and let our politicians get away with murder. There's too many distractions with drink, drugs, gak TV, video games and all that.

Hopefully, we end up taking a leaf out of Seattle's book.

**Mr Morden**

I would agree with decrimilising the substance even though the only time I came in contact with it as second hand smoke it just gives me a splitting headache.

If its legal, we get tax revenue and the substance should be pure.

One question - does it have any of the same health issues as tabaco?

**Sarouan**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I'll say this to Herzlos as well as to yourself. I'm obviously not against people drinking or taking drugs, I'd be a total hypocrite if I were, but I sometimes feel that as a society, we take our eyes off the ball sometimes, and let our politicians get away with murder. There's too many distractions with drink, drugs, gak TV, video games and all that.

Since you don't care for facts or science, just feelings (which is why you voted for Brexit, after all), I don't see the point of you talking about this.

Morality changes with time and people (like faith). It has never been a good basis to judge the long term relevance of something.

Meanwhile, the clock is still ticking.

**Herzlos**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

As a libertarian, I have no problem with people taking the stuff.

But I'm always uneasy with people being drugged up or drunk, for the sole reason that a sedated population is not a population that gets angry or pays attention to what the government is doing. Bread and circuses and all that.

That some politicians support this is reason enough to make uneasy about their ulterior motives.
While I cannot speak to UK culture on marijuana, living in Portland, where we have more marijuana dispensaries than Starbucks coffee shops, the city definitively remains one of the most politically active cities in the US, if anything its become even more politically active over the issue.

I'll say this to Herzlos as well as to yourself. I'm obviously not against people drinking or taking drugs, I'd be a total hypocrite if I were, but I sometimes feel that as a society, we take our eyes off the ball sometimes, and let our politicians get away with murder. There's too many distractions with drink, drugs, gak TV, video games and all that.

Hopefully, we end up taking a leaf out of Seattle's book.

I sort of agree with you; western society wastes far to much time consuming garbage; social media and trash tv, and being neither productive, fulfilled or enlightened.

But the population quite rightly don't give a gal about politics out with general election season. It's irrelevant, boring and divisive.

So not wanting people to waste their lives or be switched off to abuse of power, isn't a good enough reason to keep something illegal especially when the ear on it is a complete failure.

People who want to smoke weed can now, but they need to buy it from a dealer or a gang, which mixes them into a seedy underworld where they are open to abuse, being pushed towards harder drugs and so on. Since we can't stop it we may as well legalise it so we can tax it and people can access it in a safe, controlled way. As a bonus, we can avoid wasting police, court and jail time on people who are harmless and focus instead on the crime wave you keep going on about.

It's literally win win win.

**r_squared**

Not sure how this thread swung around to a debate about legalising pot?

Surely there's enough politics happening to be getting in with?

**Herzlos**

Something about science taking a back seat to morals/politics

Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yeah; my bad!

**GoatboyBeta**

Like many things either extreme of the spectrum would be a bad thing. So it really has to be a continuing conversation with both "sides" informing the other.

**gianlucafiorentini123**

Future War Cultist wrote:
It’s that time of year again; The Twelfth. The bonfires don’t seem as big this year, but there has been trouble. I believe the worst was coming out of Derry. Shootouts with the police and so on:

https://www.derryjournal.com/news/woman-stoned-in-head-two-police-injured-car-torched-and-26-petrol-bombs-thrown-in-third-night-of-derry-disorder-1-8562120

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/shots-fired-at-police-officers-in-derry-during-fourth-night-of-trouble-1.3561133?mode=amp

So a pipe bombs now been thrown into a housing estate in East Belfast and the PSNI are reporting that the UVF there are gathering in force in the area too.

**Herzlos**

gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Future War Cultist wrote:
It’s that time of year again; The Twelfth. The bonfires don’t seem as big this year, but there has been trouble. I believe the worst was coming out of Derry. Shootouts with the police and so on:

https://www.derryjournal.com/news/woman-stoned-in-head-two-police-injured-car-torched-and-26-petrol-bombs-thrown-in-third-night-of-derry-disorder-1-8562120

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/shots-fired-at-police-officers-in-derry-during-fourth-night-of-trouble-1.3561133?mode=amp

So a pipe bombs now been thrown into a housing estate in East Belfast and the PSNI are reporting that the UVF there are gathering in force in the area too.

That's much worse than usual? What's going on?

**gianlucafiorentini123**

Herzlos wrote:
gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Future War Cultist wrote:
It’s that time of year again; The Twelfth. The bonfires don’t seem as big this year, but there has been trouble. I believe the worst was coming out of Derry. Shootouts with the police and so on:

https://www.derryjournal.com/news/woman-stoned-in-head-two-police-injured-car-torched-and-26-petrol-bombs-thrown-in-third-night-of-derry-disorder-1-8562120

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/shots-fired-at-police-officers-in-derry-during-fourth-night-of-trouble-1.3561133?mode=amp

So a pipe bombs now been thrown into a housing estate in East Belfast and the PSNI are reporting that the UVF there are gathering in force in the area too.

That's much worse than usual? What's going on?

Yeah the 11th is normally the quieter of the two days, there's been a lot of tension in the country recently in general. But today Belfast council removed material from two bonfire sites due to safety concerns and that's angered loyalists hence the violence.

There's now roads being blocked off by burning tires and a bus being hijacked by armed men and then burnt out.

**Jadenim**

I know we don’t always agree in this thread, but what ever your political colour, you have my sympathies; that is totally unacceptable behaviour. Stay safe guys.

**Kilkrazy**

To be frank, I don't think the Ulster Unionists understand how little mainland British people care about their sad obsessions.

**Future War Cultist**

My family were indirectly forced from our home due to the Drumcree conflict. Although my parents are both from the west of Belfast (the catholic heartland), they got their first house in the north of the city. A lovely 3 story Edwardian terrace house in a tiny catholic enclave close to the loyalist Shore Road. Everything was relatively ok so long as we didn’t venture past the roundabout. Then Drumcree started, and the treats against us and our neighbors became worse. By 1997 guns were becoming involved and we had to get out. Sold the house and moved all the way out to the West.

**Not Online!!!**

Future War Cultist wrote:
My family were indirectly forced from our home due to the Drumcree conflict. Although my parents are both from the west of Belfast (the catholic heartland), they got their first house in the north of the city. A lovely 3 story Edwardian terrace house in a tiny catholic enclave close to the loyalist Shore Road. Everything was relatively ok so long as we didn’t venture past the roundabout. Then Drumcree started, and the treats against us and our neighbors became worse. By 1997 guns were becoming involved and we had to get out. Sold the house and moved all the way out to the West.

What are the chances that this again escalates?
I suspect with the Brexit debate about the border and some Agitation from both sides based upon the recent government problems, that this will lead to some serious mess.

**gianlucafiorentini123**

Kilkrazy wrote:To be frank, I don't think the Ulster Unionists understand how little mainland British people care about their sad obsessions.

I think some of them do and it's in many cases led to a bit of a chip on the shoulder which is why you see such extreme reaction over small things like a flag being taken down.

Future War Cultist wrote:My family were indirectly forced from our home due to the Drumcree conflict. Although my parents are both from the west of Belfast (the catholic heartland), they got their first house in the north of the city. A lovely 3 story Edwardian terrace house in a tiny catholic enclave close to the loyalist Shore Road. Everything was relatively ok so long as we didn’t venture past the roundabout. Then Drumcree started, and the treats against us and our neighbors became worse. By 1997 guns were becoming involved and we had to get out. Sold the house and moved all the way out to the West.

Drumcree was IMO one of the worst events of the troubles, while there were of course countless atrocities this had such an active support base and there's no way it could just be blamed on fringe paramilitaries.

Belfast City Airport has had to be put into shut down due to a device outside it and the silence from the DUP is deafening, thank God I'm in my parents house and not in Belfast!

**Herzlos**

And some people actually think a border between Eire/NI won't cause troubles. That's a pretty disturbing escalation.

I echo the hopes that you're all safe.

**reds8n**

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1017067259636920321

but there's another little-known element of worst-case No Deal, which is pretty extraordinary: when I told one colleague about it he asked: "Have you been drinking?

until now, you may not have paid too much attention to the single electricity market on the island of Ireland, one of the legacies of the Good Friday Agreement: in short, a large amount of power in Northern Ireland comes from south of the border...

in the event of a totally disruptive rupture with the bloc Whitehall officials fear that power providers in the republic could end the provision of electricity because the UK would no longer be part of the European electricity market...

The solution drawn up by panicked mandarins: thousands of electricity generators would have to be requisitioned at short notice and put on barges in the Irish Sea to help keep the lights on in Northern Ireland: here's my story

Officials are modelling how they might have to bring back generators from far-flung countries such as Afghanistan – where the UK is still part of Nato-led operations - in order to prevent blackouts.

of course, some will dismiss this as Project Fear part II. But one government official said the idea of electricity barges in the Irish Sea was one of the most “gob-smacking” elements of no-deal preparations...

https://www.ft.com/content/dcd8bb09-d583-3407-9209-942ab7915513

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:To be frank, I don't think the Ulster Unionists understand how little mainland British people care about their sad obsessions.

I think some of them do and it's in many cases led to a bit of a chip on the shoulder which is why you see such extreme reaction over small things like a flag being taken down.

Future War Cultist wrote:My family were indirectly forced from our home due to the Drumcree conflict. Although my parents are both from the west of Belfast (the catholic heartland), they got their first house in the north of the city. A lovely 3 story Edwardian terrace house in a tiny catholic enclave close to the loyalist Shore Road. Everything was relatively ok so long as we didn’t venture past the roundabout. Then Drumcree started, and the treats against us and our neighbors became worse. By 1997 guns were becoming involved and we had to get out. Sold the house and moved all the way out to the West.

Drumcree was IMO one of the worst events of the troubles, while there were of course countless atrocities this had such an active support base and there's no way it could just be blamed on fringe paramilitaries.

Belfast City Airport has had to be put into shut down due to a device outside it and the silence from the DUP is deafening, thank God I'm in my parents house and not in Belfast!

At this point is it not just organised crime masquerading as historical pride?

**Future War Cultist**

In the run up, I had this guy in work asking everyone what they were doing for the twelfth. He’s in a band. When he got to me I said nothing. He gets incredulous and asks why. I say it means nothing to me. Then he gets indignant, because it’s traditional cultural heritage and pride etc.

And I say not for Catholics.

That shut him up, for a while. He then started going on about how ‘inclusive’ it all is now, whilst getting a bit stroppy and asking ‘have I got a problem with it’. I said to him that we can draw a line in the sand and stop going on about it or I can get HR involved. Hopefully he takes the hint.

This is the same spanker who believes that the 1912 Ulster Gun Running, one of the most important events in unionism, never happened. It’s a lie. Because it utterly destroys the narrative that the unionists were only ever the victims of republican violence. Hard to argue that when they were the ones who bought guns into it in the modern era. At least now I can stop pretending to like the fat vaping feth.

**djones520**

So I saw this floating around, and checked the number before hand to see if it was accurate, because I generally hate memes. What are your guys thoughts on this, because it seems extremely troubling to me. (just incase there was an confusion, I was talking about the statistic on the arrests, don't give a crap about the Trump thing).

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Depends on the comments.

Called someone a bellend? Fair enough.

Detailed death or rape threats? Off to the nick you go, just as if you’d made it verbally.

**Da Boss**

Seriously less troubling than your gun laws in the United States.

Did you guys see the story about floating generator barges to keep the lights on in Northern Ireland in the case of No Deal?

At least we had a thorough discussion of issues like that before the vote, eh?

**djones520**

Da Boss wrote:
Seriously less troubling than your gun laws in the United States.

Did you guys see the story about floating generator barges to keep the lights on in Northern Ireland in the case of No Deal?

At least we had a thorough discussion of issues like that before the vote, eh?

See... this exact post encapsulates the difference in mindsets between our two cultures, as I see it. Europe seems perfectly reasonable to give up freedom because "safety". And if that's what you guys want, I guess that's ok. On the other side of the pond though, we tend to have different values.

But this isn't a discussion about American laws, and there is no reason to deflect it there. I'm asking British posters about their view on this attack (from my point of view) on free speech.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Freedom of speech isn’t freedom of consequence. And it never should be.

**Steve steveson**

djones520 wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
Seriously less troubling than your gun laws in the United States.

Did you guys see the story about floating generator barges to keep the lights on in Northern Ireland in the case of No Deal?

At least we had a thorough discussion of issues like that before the vote, eh?

See... this exact post encapsulates the difference in mindsets between our two cultures, as I see it. Europe seems perfectly reasonable to give up freedom because "safety". And if that's what you guys want, I guess that's ok. On the other side of the pond though, we tend to have different values.

But this isn't a discussion about American laws, and there is no reason to deflect it there. I'm asking British posters about their view on this attack (from my point of view) on free speech.

There has recently been moves to take online abuse seriously. After many years of it being considered "harmless" and "Just a joke" the UK police have now started to treat online threats as being just as valid as if they were written down or made in person. Meaning they still have to be credible and genuinely alarming. For example if I went in to YMDC and told someone from the US I hoped they got shot, or something like that, for disagreeing with me on two rules interact then the police would do nothing.

If I went on Facebook and posted on an ex's page that I was going to kill them then I could expect a call from the police, and it would fall in to these stats.

I am reasonably sure the latter would not be protected in the US.

**gianlucafiorentini123**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:To be frank, I don't think the Ulster Unionists understand how little mainland British people care about their sad obsessions.

I think some of them do and it's in many cases led to a bit of a chip on the shoulder which is why you see such extreme reaction over small things like a flag being taken down.

Future War Cultist wrote:My family were indirectly forced from our home due to the Drumcree conflict. Although my parents are both from the west of Belfast (the catholic heartland), they got their first house in the north of the city. A lovely 3 story Edwardian terrace house in a tiny catholic enclave close to the loyalist Shore Road. Everything was relatively ok so long as we didn’t venture past the roundabout. Then Drumcree started, and the treats against us and our neighbors became worse. By 1997 guns were becoming involved and we had to get out. Sold the house and moved all the way out to the West.

Drumcree was IMO one of the worst events of the troubles, while there were of course countless atrocities this had such an active support base and there's no way it could just be blamed on fringe paramilitaries.

Belfast City Airport has had to be put into shut down due to a device outside it and the silence from the DUP is deafening, thank God I'm in my parents house and not in Belfast!

At this point is it not just organised crime masquerading as historical pride?

There is a lot of that especially around the bonfires as a lot of them are run by paramilitaries and give them a great opportunity to pedal their drugs.

For many it's more of a chance to relive their 'glory' days of being able to ride rough shot over Catholics and pass it off as culture, if your culture consists of dancing around a fire, burning flags, religious effigies, racist banners, mocking the death of millions and attacking priests it says a lot.

Change Catholic too Jew or Muslim and this wouldn't be tolerated in the rest if the UK, unfortunately May is pandering to many of this days biggest fans.

**monarda**

djones520 wrote:
See... this exact post encapsulates the difference in mindsets between our two cultures, as I see it. Europe seems perfectly reasonable to give up freedom because "safety". And if that's what you guys want, I guess that's ok. On the other side of the pond though, we tend to have different values.

As others have noted this might be true but you've presented no evidence for it. The numbers that prompted this line of discussion are meaningless without more context.

The US has its own limitations on freedom of speech, some of which are encapsulated in the phrase 'you don't have the right to shout "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre". Unless you can show that's not the case with the application of the UK law how can you say it's different to your homeland?

Here, for example, is a discussion of California's law against 'Criminal Threat', including online threats.

**AndrewGPaul**

Or this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threatening_the_President_of_the_United_States?wprov=sfti1

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

The white paper has now seen the light of day, and it's just as well it's white, because I suspect a lot of people will be wiping their backsides with it.

Having seen a summary of the proposals, I wouldn't blame them if they did.

Better to have no Brexit than this wretched deal cooked up by May.

**Riquende**

So the white paper is out, and predictably very few MPs seem to like it. Not Brexity enough for the ERG, as everybody knew would be the case. From what I'm reading, the Tories are just batting all Labour concerns back with "you voted for all of this too".