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Any attempt at compromise between the various factions was always going to get a negative response from them all. For me that’s why May is hated (not be me i add) she is a compromiser she recognises the mess we are in better than anyone and hopes we can wriggle out of it by a scrappy messy compromise that pleases no one but provides as solution of sorts to everything. I think she believes getting through the current period of exit is more important than the mechanics of how we do it. And to a degree I agree, it would be wonderful to have a plan that we can all move with but that’s not going to happen anytime soon. Corbyn is the best asset the conservatives have, as long as he stays at the wheel of Labour we have a bogey man to keep the conservatives united. If labour had anyone with cross party appeal they would be killing it.


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Any attempt at compromise between the various factions was always going to get a negative response from them all. For me that’s why May is hated (not be me i add) she is a compromiser she recognises the mess we are in better than anyone and hopes we can wriggle out of it by a scrappy messy compromise that pleases no one but provides as solution of sorts to everything. I think she believes getting through the current period of exit is more important than the mechanics of how we do it. And to a degree I agree, it would be wonderful to have a plan that we can all move with but that’s not going to happen anytime soon. Corbyn is the best asset the conservatives have, as long as he stays at the wheel of Labour we have a bogey man to keep the conservatives united. If labour had anyone with cross party appeal they would be killing it.

 Knockagh wrote:
I see the ‘oppressed second class citizens’ have been out bombing and rioting last night again. Large crowds out rioting for the sixth night in a row. I’m sure all these republicans you say are against this trouble will be straight down to the police station to turn in the culprits?
Loyalists must be congratulated for their discipline and restraint when after these sustainined attacks on their isolated communities they have yet to respond.
Good to see the police at last starting to respond to these terrorists. Hopefully the community they come from will turn them in and police will have the balls to fire baton rounds at them. Just saw a video of a republican throwing a petrol bomb at an innocent van driver last night clearly attempted murder thankfully it bounced off the window. Shocking scenes.

https://mobile.twitter.com/petem2018/status/1017535638227308549/video/1

How are they meant to turn them in, they won't even know who the kids are except for the parents who realistically are for turning their kids in, I'd hardly call it large crowds either appears to be about 4-5 doing the majority of it.
The police have been doing something since this all started though, it's just a myth that they weren't and the police have been firing baton rounds at them.
You do know that video weakens your ethnic cleansing argument? Kinda just shows that they're wee sh*ts out to just wreck the place.

Arlene Foster still yet to condemn the attack on the Short Strand

The talent pool in the Tory party is almost dry - it's struggling to get new members and the old ones are, well, old.
Johnson, whilst devoid of any abililty or empathy, has all the right nobby connections that get him places in that society, and his roguish schoolboy charm appeals to people who miss ye olde England. So people look past his many flaws, serial lying and the fact he's absolutely only interested in himself, because he's a "harmless buffoon" in the traditional English gentry way.

In terms of filling the cabinet, May has very few people to choose from, and it's very much a case of taking the least bad candidates rather than ones which are or look good.

Labour seems to be suffering a bit from it as well, it's pool of good politicians seems very poor, but I suspect it's because most of it's talent is a lot younger and unproven. I still don't understand how Dianne Abbot has a cabinet position, beyond that she dated Corbyn about 50 years ago.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Personally, I'm glad May's Brexit plans have been shot down in flames. The EU hates them. Remain hates them. Brexiteers hate them. The US president hates them.

As I keep saying, that takes something 'special' to pull that off.

It's almost inevitable when you're trying to reconcile 2 entirely difference stances, one based on emotion and one based on practicality, that's a proxy leadership contest.

Go with the Brexit people seem to think they want = wreck the economy.
Go with the Brexit people seem to think they want, but don't solve any of their complaints = wreck the economy and be hated.
Ditch Brexit to save the economy = upset the rebels and some of the population.

Add in her red lines and the fact that she's completely outclassed by the EU, who do hold all the cards, and there's really nothing she can't do that'll upset nearly everyone.

She really needs to decide who she's going to piss off, and I think as soon as the Tory rebels bluff gets called, she'll go with the option that saves what's left of the economy.

Brexit is a lot more nuanced than that. Well, at least to me anyway.

I'm not so sure. It's a cross between some misdirected populism, right wing propaganda and Tory party infighting.

 Knockagh wrote:
Surely there is very little support for BJ? Even amoung hardcore Brexit supporters they must see him as a bumbling fool. I don’t get him at all or the attraction to him. Is it just the UK is so devoid of any leadership from any party at the minute even a fool can rise to the top? Who does he appeal to? Trump has carefully crafted an appeal to the white working classes, May has a certain appeal to our older richer folk who maintain British traditional values who arnt so radical in either direction. Who on earth does Boris appeal to? Am I missing a class of clowns?

Bojo appealed to a lot of people for various reasons such as his tousled hair schoolboy image and his de facto leadership of the Brexiteer wing of the party. My mother (age 81) practically worships him.

Howevr, there's no doubt he has seriously damaged his political stock with his dreadful handling of the post of Foreign Minister, as far as the party goes.

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:
I see the ‘oppressed second class citizens’ have been out bombing and rioting last night again. Large crowds out rioting for the sixth night in a row. I’m sure all these republicans you say are against this trouble will be straight down to the police station to turn in the culprits?
Loyalists must be congratulated for their discipline and restraint when after these sustainined attacks on their isolated communities they have yet to respond.
Good to see the police at last starting to respond to these terrorists. Hopefully the community they come from will turn them in and police will have the balls to fire baton rounds at them. Just saw a video of a republican throwing a petrol bomb at an innocent van driver last night clearly attempted murder thankfully it bounced off the window. Shocking scenes.

https://mobile.twitter.com/petem2018/status/1017535638227308549/video/1

How are they meant to turn them in, they won't even know who the kids are except for the parents who realistically are for turning their kids in, I'd hardly call it large crowds either appears to be about 4-5 doing the majority of it.
The police have been doing something since this all started though, it's just a myth that they weren't and the police have been firing baton rounds at them.
You do know that video weakens your ethnic cleansing argument? Kinda just shows that they're wee sh*ts out to just wreck the place.

Arlene Foster still yet to condemn the attack on the Short Strand

Unionists have repeatedly condemned any attacks. Are you going to go through lists to make sure everyone has made a statement? Wise up.

How does the video invalidate anything. What that guy was doing was exactly the same as provo rioters did for decades, no different. He wasn’t a kid by the look of him he was at least 17. The police stated today that: "While we have seen many young people involved in these attacks over the last number of nights, it is clear that this is being orchestrated by a more sinister, adult, violent dissident republican element.” Supt Gordon McCalmont
Everyone in estates knows who’s doing what. Don’t be ridiculous.

 Knockagh wrote:
I see the ‘oppressed second class citizens’ have been out bombing and rioting last night again. Large crowds out rioting for the sixth night in a row. I’m sure all these republicans you say are against this trouble will be straight down to the police station to turn in the culprits?
Loyalists must be congratulated for their discipline and restraint when after these sustainined attacks on their isolated communities they have yet to respond.
Good to see the police at last starting to respond to these terrorists. Hopefully the community they come from will turn them in and police will have the balls to fire baton rounds at them. Just saw a video of a republican throwing a petrol bomb at an innocent van driver last night clearly attempted murder thankfully it bounced off the window. Shocking scenes.

https://mobile.twitter.com/petem2018/status/1017535638227308549/video/1

I noticed you completely passed over the blast bomb chucked at children by loyalists. No actually, no terrorist needs to be congratulated for not getting in the way of the police tackling the issue already. I'm certainly not going to congratulate dissidents for not chucking a blast bomb back at the completely unhindered terrorist in Belfast. No loyalist will be reported for their actions such as burning buses, nor will these youths. It's a mixture of intimidation and the old hatred of the tout. Don't judge one community when the other acts the exact same way.
The fact that the protestants have always flown huge offensive banners and flags on their bonfire may have been one of the reasons these youths have run out of "restraint."

Police have been responding for several nights actually. Perhaps they'd have had an easier time of it if they weren't busy fighting the UVF so they could make bonfires less likely to fall down on peoples houses?

Oh yes escalation has always served well in these matters. Baton rounds like the ones they didn't have on hand when dealing with the UVF. And like I said: you clearly couldn't give a flying feth about the attempted murder of several children by the UVF. The lad who threw that petrol bomb is no Republican: he's a dissident at best, a bored youth rioting out his anger at worst.
Edit: would you like to supply a link to the condemnation by the DUP of the appalling terror attack on young children?
It's not just flags by the way. Did you not see the signs?
FETH YOUR BALLYMURPHY MASSACRE
KILL ALL TAIGS

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1017670847757250560

In Trump's interview with The Sun during his UK visit he also said, "You don't hear the word 'England' as much as you should. I miss the name England.

if only there'd been some event, perhaps an international one, maybe featuring sport or something, quite recently when one might hear such archaic terms bandied around.

He’s so utterly full of gak.

He thinks Ireland is in the UK, he's not that great at geography. We can scratch American intervention off our solutions to the current impasse.

The references to Ballymurphy is more to do with the persecution of troops and an appeal for the truth of the days and weeks before the shootings to be told by all parties. The crown forces are all being brought before a judge, the UVF have come forward stating they had volunteers on the ground and they had a sniper firing into Ballymurphy. They have even provided details of the firearm used for ballistic analysis. The IRA have yet to bring forward their own version of events that will tie up with what we know. Many loyalists are frustrated that their act of good faith in coming forward with information along with the persecution of crown force personnel isn’t being reciprocated by republicans. The banner wasn’t right and I’m not defending it but it isn’t what it appears. And any bonfire flag burning or banner pales when you look at vile Barry McIduff an elected politician mocking innocent victims.
Dissidents are republicans don’t be ridiculous. The same argument was used by the provos and the officials all pointing the finger and saying “we are the only republicans” “no we are.” “We are the IRA” “no we are The IRA.” If it wasn’t coming from such a septic crowd of gangsters and thugs it would be worthy of a monty python sketch.

As regards to the Northern Ireland situation, the best solution, IMO,

would be a total confession along the lines of the South African truth and reconciliation agreement.

Full immunity for everybody and everything that happened before the Good Friday agreement: soldiers, IRA, Gerry Adams, Ian Paisley Loyalists, British intelligence, etc etc


on condition that everybody admits to where the bodies are buried and confesses to the details of every sordid operation that both sides are guilty of committing.


Then, and only then, can we draw a line under this whole tragic business...

I wonder which side is advocating that? Ahh yes the evil Republicans as per usual. The ones who travel around the world congratulating groups like ETA and the FARC when they dump arms.

Knockagh wrote:

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:
I see the ‘oppressed second class citizens’ have been out bombing and rioting last night again. Large crowds out rioting for the sixth night in a row. I’m sure all these republicans you say are against this trouble will be straight down to the police station to turn in the culprits?
Loyalists must be congratulated for their discipline and restraint when after these sustainined attacks on their isolated communities they have yet to respond.
Good to see the police at last starting to respond to these terrorists. Hopefully the community they come from will turn them in and police will have the balls to fire baton rounds at them. Just saw a video of a republican throwing a petrol bomb at an innocent van driver last night clearly attempted murder thankfully it bounced off the window. Shocking scenes.

https://mobile.twitter.com/petem2018/status/1017535638227308549/video/1

How are they meant to turn them in, they won't even know who the kids are except for the parents who realistically are for turning their kids in, I'd hardly call it large crowds either appears to be about 4-5 doing the majority of it.
The police have been doing something since this all started though, it's just a myth that they weren't and the police have been firing baton rounds at them.
You do know that video weakens your ethnic cleansing argument? Kinda just shows that they're wee sh*ts out to just wreck the place.

Arlene Foster still yet to condemn the attack on the Short Strand

Unionists have repeatedly condemned any attacks. Are you going to go through lists to make sure everyone has made a statement? Wise up.

How does the video invalidate anything. What that guy was doing was exactly the same as provo rioters did for decades, no different. He wasn’t a kid by the look of him he was at least 17. The police stated today that: "While we have seen many young people involved in these attacks over the last number of nights, it is clear that this is being orchestrated by a more sinister, adult, violent dissident republican element.” Supt Gordon McCalmont
Everyone in estates knows who’s doing what. Don’t be ridiculous.

The leader of the largest unionist party in the country has purposely left out and condemnation of attacks on nationalist civilians, the DUP has a whole have ignored the rampant sectarianism for years.

Because you have said it was a continued bid to ethnically cleanse the fountain estate which attacking a van in the middle of the Bogside isn't exactly doing that it's just scummy vandalism.

Knockagh wrote:The references to Ballymurphy is more to do with the persecution of troops and an appeal for the truth of the days and weeks before the shootings to be told by all parties. The crown forces are all being brought before a judge, the UVF have come forward stating they had volunteers on the ground and they had a sniper firing into Ballymurphy. They have even provided details of the firearm used for ballistic analysis. The IRA have yet to bring forward their own version of events that will tie up with what we know. Many loyalists are frustrated that their act of good faith in coming forward with information along with the persecution of crown force personnel isn’t being reciprocated by republicans. The banner wasn’t right and I’m not defending it but it isn’t what it appears. And any bonfire flag burning or banner pales when you look at vile Barry McIduff an elected politician mocking innocent victims.
Dissidents are republicans don’t be ridiculous. The same argument was used by the provos and the officials all pointing the finger and saying “we are the only republicans” “no we are.” “We are the IRA” “no we are The IRA.” If it wasn’t coming from such a septic crowd of gangsters and thugs it would be worthy of a monty python sketch.

The UVF are claiming responsibility for some of the deaths not them all, also very handy that the 2 guys who did just happen to be dead what a coincidence. The firearms they're claiming to have used don't match the bullets found at the scene , but were apparerntly adapted to fire them and have now been destroyed, even sources within the UVF have said they don't believe these claims. If the UVF had had marksmen capable of doing these sorts of acts why didn't replicate them again or boast of them at the time seeing as that was their entire objective. It's exactly as it appears 11 innocent people were shot in the streets and those at that bonfire don't think there should be an inquest, I wonder why?

There is no persecution of troops, it's been disproved completely!

What McElduff did was wrong completely and he's no longer a an elected representative, clearly showing that that isn't tolerated within SF, what about when Emma Penegelly stuck up for UVF flags in a mixed area and then families were intimidated out was she disciplined?

Da Krimsun Baron and Knockhagh demonstrate another issue - and apologies for singling them out, as it’s not a criticism of them personally.

Look at their posts. Recriminations on both sides show the wide divide that remains.

Now I’ve not a clue who has the right of anything there, and I wouldn’t dare comment as my knowledge of The Troubles is limited to the time my brother took a poop in a toilet that blew up a couple of hours later.

It’s a hideous situation, and one I can only hope eventually comes to an end. But you can see the strength of feeling in those poster’s comments. Yet it seems there’s buttholes on both sides (not our fellow posters for absolute clarity) with a vested interest in keeping that pot boiling.

@ mad doc Hahah, yes indeed we are a right bunch of buttholes if the truth be told. Mainlanders should pay heed, history has a way of getting complicated.
Protestants came over here as immigrants 800 years ago and we have been hated and told to go home for every one of them. There’s a lesson there somewhere.
I’m off out!

Wait, Protestants 800 years ago? Wut?

 Knockagh wrote:
@ mad doc Hahah, yes indeed we are a right bunch of buttholes if the truth be told. Mainlanders should pay heed, history has a way of getting complicated.
Protestants came over here as immigrants 800 years ago and we have been hated and told to go home for every one of them. There’s a lesson there somewhere.
I’m off out!

Before the reformation? Good effort!

 Knockagh wrote:
@ mad doc Hahah, yes indeed we are a right bunch of buttholes if the truth be told. Mainlanders should pay heed, history has a way of getting complicated.
Protestants came over here as immigrants 800 years ago and we have been hated and told to go home for every one of them. There’s a lesson there somewhere.
I’m off out!

And of course nothing was ever done to the native people of the land, in fact they should be grateful they were invaded.

The irony is that for a peoples born of immigration they're the most anti-immigration group in the country.

The May Trump press conference is one that will be replayed for generations...

A textbook example of car crash...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Wait, Protestants 800 years ago? Wut?

It is a little known historical fact that Dutch protestants in 1685 invented a time machine.

So knockage. Show me WHERE IN THE NAME OF GOD UNIONISM HAS CONDEMNED THE BLAST BOMB.

Don't feth around. We both know exactly what feth your ballymurphy massacre means.

Why are WE the side labelled terrorists always stuck condemning our own lot, and yours never have a word to say? We gave Barry the boot.

Come to think of it, perhaps I am missing something but why haven't YOU condemned the blast bomb? Maybe I've missed it, but I have a feeling I haven't.

Republicanism is based on the theory that the people of Ireland are a single entity and as a majority want unity. However they have as a majority endorsed an end to violence as part of the GFA. Therefore CIRA and NIRA cannot be Republicans.
Also there is no mainland except the rest of Europe.

Would you like to explain how burning the car of a saoradh member is ethnic cleansing? Wouldn't be sad to see them lot cleansed out to be fair, although I don't think that's the point those scum were making.

Do you think you guys could yell at each other somewhere else before you get the thread locked?

Fine, but this dodging of any question he dislikes is farcical.

nfe wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:
@ mad doc Hahah, yes indeed we are a right bunch of buttholes if the truth be told. Mainlanders should pay heed, history has a way of getting complicated.
Protestants came over here as immigrants 800 years ago and we have been hated and told to go home for every one of them. There’s a lesson there somewhere.
I’m off out!

Before the reformation? Good effort!

Haha bit of a slip up there! It’s s slip up that shows how we interchange Language here,quite incorrectly and inappropriately to label ourselves and others. Perhaps more appropriately we are a people who have remained loyal to the crown; a people of French, English and Scottish extraction who came to Ireland, across many centuries, for a variety of reasons but who are united by a deep love of the crown and our beloved union. And still we cry No Surrender!

 Knockagh wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:
@ mad doc Hahah, yes indeed we are a right bunch of buttholes if the truth be told. Mainlanders should pay heed, history has a way of getting complicated.
Protestants came over here as immigrants 800 years ago and we have been hated and told to go home for every one of them. There’s a lesson there somewhere.
I’m off out!

Before the reformation? Good effort!

Haha bit of a slip up there! It’s s slip up that shows how we interchange Language here,quite incorrectly and inappropriately to label ourselves and others. Perhaps more appropriately we are a people who have remained loyal to the crown; a people of French, English and Scottish extraction who came to Ireland, across many centuries, for a variety of reasons but who are united by a deep love of the crown and our beloved union. And still we cry No Surrender!

I wish you could take the remaining knuckle-dragging bigots that shout no surrender here.

It is a pretty frustrating thing to see loyalist terrorism glossed over. The UK has always had a bigger megaphone to shout about IRA terrorism, and so most people outside of the conflict have heard of that. Few enough have heard of Loyalist terrorism (or British State Terrorism) because the UK always falls silent on the issue or in some cases covers it up. It is tiresome to correct this sort of thing and it skews the truth of the matter.

But maybe we cannot discuss it here without getting the thread locked. That is sad.

It does point to the fact that tensions are simmering away in the North, and any move on the current settlement, be it for a hard border, a sea border, or even reunification, has the potential to stir violence among the tiny minority. Blase statements and brush offs are not good enough when dealing with this prospect.

 Knockagh wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:
@ mad doc Hahah, yes indeed we are a right bunch of buttholes if the truth be told. Mainlanders should pay heed, history has a way of getting complicated.
Protestants came over here as immigrants 800 years ago and we have been hated and told to go home for every one of them. There’s a lesson there somewhere.
I’m off out!

Before the reformation? Good effort!

Haha bit of a slip up there! It’s s slip up that shows how we interchange Language here,quite incorrectly and inappropriately to label ourselves and others. Perhaps more appropriately we are a people who have remained loyal to the crown; a people of French, English and Scottish extraction who came to Ireland, across many centuries, for a variety of reasons but who are united by a deep love of the crown and our beloved union. And still we cry No Surrender!

You love the crown so much you were throwing stones at it's agents a few nights ago.
First British soldier killed in the troubles: a catholic on leave
killed by the RUC.
First RUC man, killed by the UVF.
Armed selves in 1913 to reject the rule of Parliament.
At drumcree shots were fired at police.
157 police injured in flag riots.
Pipe bomb thrown at the police on Wednesday.
I'm glad you lot aren't loyal to the republic!
Immigrants? Ah yes immigration usually involves forcing the previous inhabitants out of their ancestral home, banning their religious practices and language and starving them to death.
I won't condemn anyone for how their ancestors got here: that's the past- But I will condemn any whitewashing of how they got here. You found the link to Arlene's condemnation of terror?


Da Boss: Well to be fair the Dublin Government has never been very vocal on the issue. They essentially covered up Dublin-Monaghan until the hidden hand documentary in the 90's and now they're doing sweet FA to get the files. To be fair to them what's the point in trying?

Frankly we have reached the point where all north of Ireland arguments reach: a revolving circle. I'm happy to shut up about it once Knockage condemns the blast bomb the same way I condemn the youths in Derry and either supplies a link backing up his claim that unionism has condemned such action by loyalists, or failing that, admits that no such link exists.

 Da Boss wrote:
It is a pretty frustrating thing to see loyalist terrorism glossed over. The UK has always had a bigger megaphone to shout about IRA terrorism, and so most people outside of the conflict have heard of that. Few enough have heard of Loyalist terrorism (or British State Terrorism) because the UK always falls silent on the issue or in some cases covers it up. It is tiresome to correct this sort of thing and it skews the truth of the matter.

But maybe we cannot discuss it here without getting the thread locked. That is sad.

It does point to the fact that tensions are simmering away in the North, and any move on the current settlement, be it for a hard border, a sea border, or even reunification, has the potential to stir violence among the tiny minority. Blase statements and brush offs are not good enough when dealing with this prospect.

I think part of the problem is that the majority of people in mainland Britain don't give two hoots for Northern Ireland anymore, and I don't mean that in a bad way, it's just indifference.. This is not 1914, Edward Carson and all that.

You and I have had our disagreements on the EU, but I would have Irish re-unification tomorrow if it were up to me. No offence to Unionist dakka members.

The Brexit vote also highlighted an uncomfortable truth for Unionists in Northern Ireland: the Home Counties of England would quite happily jettison them for Brexit...


As for your point about Loyalist terrorism, I have Peter Taylor's excellent trilogy on the troubles. Loyalists is book two. Book 1 being Provos, book 3 being the Brits. I would recommend the trilogy to anybody.


I would also say to Irish dakka members that we're not all ignorant about Irish history. I did the Irish civil war at University.


Just because I don't talk about Irish history doesn't mean to say we are ignorant of it...

nfe wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:
@ mad doc Hahah, yes indeed we are a right bunch of buttholes if the truth be told. Mainlanders should pay heed, history has a way of getting complicated.
Protestants came over here as immigrants 800 years ago and we have been hated and told to go home for every one of them. There’s a lesson there somewhere.
I’m off out!

Before the reformation? Good effort!

Haha bit of a slip up there! It’s s slip up that shows how we interchange Language here,quite incorrectly and inappropriately to label ourselves and others. Perhaps more appropriately we are a people who have remained loyal to the crown; a people of French, English and Scottish extraction who came to Ireland, across many centuries, for a variety of reasons but who are united by a deep love of the crown and our beloved union. And still we cry No Surrender!

I wish you could take the remaining knuckle-dragging bigots that shout no surrender here.

It’s a slogan that has quite different connotations over here. It’s a historical phrase from the seige of Derry. A badge of our collective resistance down the centuries. It was (legend has it) written on a cannon ball and fired out from the besieged city in 1688 after the people had almost been betrayed by one of their own the governor of the city Robert Lundy. The term Lundy has also entered national consciousness and calling someone a Lundy is another name for a betrayer. So when I hear the English shout it I’m confused I’m not sure where it came into usage there, it has quite different meaning than it does here.

Only times I've ever heard "Lundy" in England have been in reference to the island: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lundy