UK & EU Politics Thread

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**Graphite**

Even if the politics is "Don't mess with us, we've got a massive army"

**Mr Morden**

Graphite wrote:
Even if the politics is "Don't mess with us, we've got a massive army"

Set against: is that massive army any good, how large an area are you defending and how good is your Command and Control / Logistics.

Going all the way back to Persia vs Alexander

and beyond

**Graphite**

Probably going back to "2 guys with spears vs. 3 guys with clubs"

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Why we need a people’s referendum on whatever deal is finally hashed out.

By Mad Doc Grotsnik, aged 38 and a bit.

The core of the problem lies in Leave never actually believing they’d win it.

This lead to what I like to call ‘The Lib Dem Effect’. Essentially, never believing they had even a glimmer of a chance, it just didn’t matter what they promised or said, because the theory went they’d never ever have to actually deliver it.

Yet many of those promises hit home. The now infamous Bus Of Lies. Vague entreaties about ‘Sovereignty’, without explaining exactly what they meant. Outright fibs about how much the EU foists upon us.

Post-Brexit Britain was said to be a paradise. More jobs, less foreigners (especially, bizarrely, less non-white migrants, even though that’s nothing to do with Europe). Better wages. Countries queueing up to give us the best deals.

This married into an electorate partially wanting to give the establshment a scare and a slightly bloody nose.

I genuinely don’t believe the majority of people who voted Leave were in the ‘at any cost’ Camp. A fair number were protest votes. And in the end, only around 2/3rds of eligible voters had their say,

But now? It’s coming down to the crunch. The lies peddled by Leave to one side, we’re starting to see just what impact Brexit might have,

Jacob Rees-Mogg - oh it’ll be 50 years before we see a benefit.
Nigel Farage - I never said we’d be better off out.
Johnson - GOSH! Crikey! I just wanted to be leader. RUN AWAY!
Gove - various slug like noises in an oddly Weasely fashion

And those impacts are eye opening. Whilst there was exaggeration (the war one is still face palm worthy), ‘Project Fear’ wasn’t at all far off the mark.

We’re seeing jitters in business. We’re seeing farmers struggling to get fruit pickers already, and we’ve not even left.

The core problem of course is the referendum was too binary. Both sides predicted the wrong outcome, and thus chose the wrong battle lines. In or Out, with no definition or explanation of what Out would look like. Indeed, even Herr Farage said ‘nobody is meaning we leave the Single Market’....more than once.

And as the impacts begin to crystallise and manifest properly, we simply cannot leave the final say to Parliament. There’s too many fingers in too many pies in that small group. And no one party wields sufficient power to quell its more dissenting members (though why the Tories are so beholden to their more swivel eyed parliamentarians, I don’t know.)

And it’s us that will have to carry the can. Those pushing for Wrexit will remain very well off.

The original referendum was a Tory Civl War gotten well out of hand. It was Cameron’s ‘put up or shut up’, a tactic that did actually work for John Major.

We cannot let the future of this country be solely determined by a handful of parliamentarians.

Once the final deal is thrashed out, it must go back to the people. As a die hard Remain voter, I’ll feel a helluva lot better if Leave wins again when people are more aware of just what it is they’re voting for. Sure, it’ll suck that I’m still getting caught up in it. But as it stands, a vote sold on lies, pipe dreams and obfuscation is not something for us to slavishly follow.

**Kilkrazy**

The Independent has started a petition to have a second referendum.

You can sign it here...

**reds8n**

Spoiler:

..keeps on giving.

**War Drone**

Kilkrazy wrote:
The Independent has started a petition to have a second referendum.

You can sign it here...

They also have a "Rehire James Gunn" petition straight afterwards ...

**Kilkrazy**

No, that's on the petition site, it's not a petition by The Indepenent.

It's like if you go on the US government site you'll find a petition to build the NCCS ENterprise and that kind of thing, among the "real" petitions.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:
The Independent has started a petition to have a second referendum.

You can sign it here...

Example of modern social marketing using Big Data

I signed the petition at work in Oxford, where it assumed I was in the OX1 area but I put my true postcode of RG9.

Now I've logged on from home to see the progress, the petition site is telling me that "Kilkrazy" signed the petition and needs my support.

Obviously it knows I am in RG9 and doesn't know I am Kilkrazy, so I may be a neighbour.

**Jazzpot1707**

Ranged weapons will still be king though. Those that have them will have a huge advantage. Although guns are going to be relatively infrequent (though this isn't a global issue) so smuggling them in might be big business. However you can get tournament bows and arrows. They do pack a punch, although they need practice to get right.

Crossbows would be easier but can be quite expensive, if you are so inclined.
The best policy would be to befriend your neighbours and organise. That way you can share resources, work defence etc.
the last thing you want is to try and defend your flimsy 6 foot wooden fence against a

off neighbour.
Remember we are the number 1 animal due to team work.

Herzlos wrote:
Jazzpot1707 wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
In terms of EU reform; I'd like to see an end to the 2nd parliament. Potentially re-instate it as some form of 2nd chamber, but at least axe the expense of moving everything.
I'd put something in place to prevent MEP's taking a salary/pension but never turning up - some form of minimum attendance or valid justification.

The problem with the second parliament is that in order to remove it you'll have to remove france's veto. The only way to do that is to remove all vetos.
It's like you brexiters think you're pointing out a brilliant but unseen problem we have all missed but your not!
All the other countrys know its a waste and have voted against it several times but france just goes non slaps down veto.

That's why I think it might be an easier sell to re purpose it as a 2nd chamber. If we need to keep it running we may as well use it for something and skip this moving back and forward farce.

But in reality it doesn't cost that much and I'd rather have it than Brexit.

I would rather have me teeth pulled with no anaesthetic than the no deal brexit it looks like we are getting.
I could get behind an EFTA deal if they could fix the ireland border I.E. a transition period until we have a credible, workable plan
a second parliament would make sense it would save money, and could be seen as an olive branch to anti EU elements.
The problem i see with it ( and why i suggested it) is that they just will not be happy with it, we've seen what they can do now
I never thought even 5 years ago that they could get a majority (UKIP got 20% during the 2015 election, i thought maybe 30% max)
we need to give them an ultimatum: the EU is wasteful or the EU lets countrys have a certain amount of sovereignty.

I think another problem of the EU is that it's too easy to use as a punching bag. Something goes wrong "it's the EUs fault".
I was thinking a media company, or buy shares/put programs on every countrys news channel, or they get really itchy with the i'll sue you button.
I have lost count of the number of shear myths i have had to dispell over the last couple of years.

Kilkrazy wrote:The Independent has started a petition to have a second referendum.

You can sign it here...

Signed
also signed this one
https://www.peoples-vote.uk/[url]
I don't really care any more. I'll sign them all.

**Whirlwind**

So apparently May thinks that we should take comfort in that they are putting in place plans to stockpile food.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-says-people-should-take-comfort-from-the-government-stockpiling-blood-and-food_uk_5b5876a1e4b0de86f49243a5?n7k&utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage

I mean yeah, really comforting that we are taking a wealthy nation to the point where we may have to restrict supplies of food to the populace. Very comforting...to know that you might not be able to get the food you want when you need it through self inflicted idiocy.

**ScarletRose**

Whirlwind wrote:
So apparently May thinks that we should take comfort in that they are putting in place plans to stockpile food.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-says-people-should-take-comfort-from-the-government-stockpiling-blood-and-food_uk_5b5876a1e4b0de86f49243a5?n7k&utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage

I mean yeah, really comforting that we are taking a wealthy nation to the point where we may have to restrict supplies of food to the populace. Very comforting...to know that you might not be able to get the food you want when you need it through self inflicted idiocy.

Too bad it's so late in the year - instead of a Victory garden you could have "Brexit" gardens.

**Herzlos**

How do the brexit at all costs feel about food rationing? Bluff? Worth it?

**Steve steveson**

Whirlwind wrote:
So apparently May thinks that we should take comfort in that they are putting in place plans to stockpile food.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-says-people-should-take-comfort-from-the-government-stockpiling-blood-and-food_uk_5b5876a1e4b0de86f49243a5?n7k&utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage

I mean yeah, really comforting that we are taking a wealthy nation to the point where we may have to restrict supplies of food to the populace. Very comforting...to know that you might not be able to get the food you want when you need it through self inflicted idiocy.

It sounds a bit like this to me:
Health experts: Ebola is coming to the UK
Govenment: It’s fine. We have plenty of body bags!

This whole Brexit mess is getting worse than “project fear” even thought. This is just insane and destroying our country for a political ideology. I feel sorry for those who genuinely believed we would be better off outside the EU. They fell for the lies of a hoes who wanted it for ideological reasons.

**A Town Called Malus**

So, there won't be a World War Three but the UK will have to behave as if there was whilst the rest of the world gets to carry on as normal.

**Da Boss**

Honestly, as an outsider, I am just glad they are discussing this and planning for this. The previous answers to "how are you going to deal with short term disruptions to food supply" were total fantasy. Stockpiling food is sensible - the UK is not able to feed itself independently, hasn't been able to for over a hundred years, it absolutely needs food imports to survive. That is not a problem you can fix by growing a few extra turnips. You are lacking in the infrastructure and trained personnel to become food independent and there is a significant lead time anyway, in the order of years.

If you want to get food from other sources, that is a long-medium term solution, but it will take a couple of weeks to set up. Even just keeping the current trading going but more expensive, would, in the case of a "no deal", result in delays of maybe 5 days as the customs chaos played out.

At the very least you are talking about a drop in the availability of fresh food anyway, and food is likely to get dramatically more expensive. Given how many already rely on food banks in the UK and the likely fall in the pound in the case of a hard brexit, you can see the situation spiraling rapidly. So stockpiles of food are a sensible and needed precaution, and a sign of the UK becoming more serious about Brexit. Unfortunately, over 2 years too late.

**tneva82**

Da Boss wrote:
Honestly, as an outsider, I am just glad they are discussing this and planning for this. The previous answers to "how are you going to deal with short term disruptions to food supply" were total fantasy. Stockpiling food is sensible - the UK is not able to feed itself independently, hasn't been able to for over a hundred years, it absolutely needs food imports to survive. That is not a problem you can fix by growing a few extra turnips. You are lacking in the infrastructure and trained personnel to become food independent and there is a significant lead time anyway, in the order of years.

If you want to get food from other sources, that is a long-medium term solution, but it will take a couple of weeks to set up. Even just keeping the current trading going but more expensive, would, in the case of a "no deal", result in delays of maybe 5 days as the customs chaos played out.

At the very least you are talking about a drop in the availability of fresh food anyway, and food is likely to get dramatically more expensive. Given how many already rely on food banks in the UK and the likely fall in the pound in the case of a hard brexit, you can see the situation spiraling rapidly. So stockpiles of food are a sensible and needed precaution, and a sign of the UK becoming more serious about Brexit. Unfortunately, over 2 years too late.

Too bad they are unlikely able to stockpile years worth so it's short term relied anyway. Then it runs out

**Da Boss**

That is true, but the serious disruption (I mean food not reaching shops) is likely to only at maximum last in the order of weeks. I think they could allieviate the worst of that. It would not be pleasant but it could prevent serious unrest.

I am just glad they are waking up to the fact that this disruption can happen - up to now it seemed like they were pretending they could just seamlessly switch to getting food from Africa or South America with no disruption, which was really dumb. Hearing supposedly educated people spouting that kind of nonsense really drives home why you need people who have technical know-how in decision making positions.

I think with preparation they can make the disruption unpleasant rather than catastrophic. The bigger problem is that without CU\SM membership, food will get more expensive if they buy it from Europe or will be of uncertain quality if they get it from elsewhere. In the medium term, they will have to buy quite a lot of it still from the EU, and that will mean rising food prices. The pound collapsing will make that even more of an issue. So even if food is available, the government may need to subsidise it to ensure people can afford it until a cheaper supply can be set up, which will take a fair bit of time.

The UK could also build up it's agricultural sector, but that also takes time and investment. The UK does not really have a strong culture of agri-food any more, being predominantly an urban nation of service industries at this point.

I am glad this stuff is being discussed. No Deal is insanity and the more it is discussed in public the more people will realise. I think up to now the average punter has not considered these issues carefully, but hearing about something like food stockpiling will scare them. I am pretty sure that is why May is doing it, to soften up the population so they accept comromises. Again, the problem is, she should have done that a year or more ago. Or even had this conversation during the referendum.

**Whirlwind**

Da Boss wrote:
That is true, but the serious disruption (I mean food not reaching shops) is likely to only at maximum last in the order of weeks. I think they could allieviate the worst of that. It would not be pleasant but it could prevent serious unrest.

I am just glad they are waking up to the fact that this disruption can happen - up to now it seemed like they were pretending they could just seamlessly switch to getting food from Africa or South America with no disruption, which was really dumb. Hearing supposedly educated people spouting that kind of nonsense really drives home why you need people who have technical know-how in decision making positions.

This does require May to soften substantially her red lines - in that we stay in the customs union. She hasn't given herself much leeway in saying we aren't moving much from these terms in the white paper and expect to survive as PM.

What really is shocking that we have to even plan for this. This is a real tangible risk now. Not fanatics preaching on a street corner. I can undertand the need for plans for emergency measures in case of an asteroid impact etc. However this is planned problems. If you even have to consider that your approach is in effect to apply processes that are usually reserved for natural disasters or war time then a government really should take a step back and look at what it is doing because you hardly want to put the country you are leading into such a situation that is equivalent.

Effectively you are saying a hard Wrexit will be a natural disaster.

**reds8n**

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/lesterfeder/boris-johnson-steve-bannon

Donald Trump’s former chief adviser Steve Bannon has been in direct communication with former UK foreign secretary Boris Johnson, as both men plot new moves that could have a significant impact on European politics, multiple sources told BuzzFeed News.

During a visit to London this month, which overlapped with Trump’s working visit to the UK, Bannon spoke glowingly of Johnson in several interviews and urged him to challenge Prime Minister Theresa May for the leadership of the Conservative Party.

A source who spent time with Bannon during the trip said Bannon was in private contact with Johnson while he was in Britain.

It is unclear exactly what the two men discussed, but the source said, “I’m sure they weren’t discussing the cricket scores.”

A former UK government source told BuzzFeed News that Bannon and Johnson have known each other for some time, and exchanged text messages as far back as when Johnson was foreign secretary and Bannon worked in the White House.

When contacted, Bannon would not comment on the record.

Asked to comment on whether Johnson has been seeking advice and guidance from Bannon, or whether Bannon had been encouraging him to launch a campaign for a hard Brexit or challenge May, Johnson’s spokesperson declined to comment.

News of the two men being in direct contact so recently will surprise people in the UK, and it suggests that Bannon’s relationships are deepening with senior politicians in the ruling Conservative Party. Bannon has previously met Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, who leads an influential caucus of Conservative MPs who want a hard break from the European Union.

The revelation of the recent communications between Johnson and Bannon indicates that there’s more to the relationship between one of the UK’s most well-known politicians and the former senior Trump adviser than has previously been reported.

Johnson resigned from May’s cabinet this month in protest of the prime minister’s new approach to Brexit, which many euroskeptics believe will keep the UK too closely aligned with the EU after it leaves the union.

In the last few weeks since leaving government, Johnson has been relatively quiet. UK political insiders are watching closely to see what he does next, with some speculating that he will begin aggressively campaigning to pressure the government to change its Brexit policy — and perhaps try to topple May as prime minister.

Bannon, who left his role in the White House in August 2017, is eyeing Europe as a new political battleground. He is planning to start a new organization, based in Brussels, to help far-right parties seize control of the parliament of the European Union.
An alliance with Johnson — the most prominent campaigner for Brexit, and a genuine contender to be the UK’s next prime minister — would make Bannon a player in one of Europe’s main political dramas. In interviews in London this month, Bannon appeared to encourage Johnson to challenge May, making reference to May’s softer plan for Brexit that led to Johnson’s resignation.

“Now is the moment,” Bannon told the Daily Telegraph. “If Boris Johnson looks at this... There comes an inflection point. The Chequers deal was an inflection point. We will have to see what happens.”

On the radio station LBC, Bannon said he’d always been “very impressed” with Johnson, adding: “If you look at Boris’s resignation letter and if you look at him and his writing, if you look at his book on Churchill.

“He is a student of Churchill.”

However, an association with Bannon could damage Johnson’s standing with mainstream British voters, who would regard Bannon’s firebrand populist rhetoric as too right-wing.

Bannon’s closest political relationship in the UK has historically been with Nigel Farage and UKIP, the right-wing party which campaigned to leave the EU and for tight immigration controls.

Bojo getting desperate now then.

Spoiler:

Sainsburys getting ready for Brexit it seems.

**Whirlwind**

Spoiler:

Sainsburys getting ready for Brexit it seems.

Not quite yet. After Wrexit it will be

"Now with 25% sawdust!"

Also I have a suspicion that Tesco's secret new store format

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44921617

is because it has been awarded a new contract by the Government. Perhaps these discount stores will not be about price but discounting how much you can buy! After all the government has to distribute the food it stockpiles somehow (unless it is keeping it all for itself).

**Kilkrazy**

Time to buy shares in Soylent Green.

**Jadenim**

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-22/u-k-brexit-hit-already-exceeds-eu-budget-payments-study-shows

[slow clap] Bravo

**tneva82**

Good job uk! Nice voting!

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Time to buy shares in Soylent Green.

Surely ‘Solyent RED WHITE AND BLUE’

**Jazzpot1707**

Jadenim wrote:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-22/u-k-brexit-hit-already-exceeds-eu-budget-payments-study-shows

[slow clap] Bravo

GREAT BRI-TAIN, GREAT BRI-TAIN

Whirlwind wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
That is true, but the serious disruption (I mean food not reaching shops) is likely to only at maximum last in the order of weeks. I think they could allieviate the worst of that. It would not be pleasant but it could prevent serious unrest.

I am just glad they are waking up to the fact that this disruption can happen - up to now it seemed like they were pretending they could just seamlessly switch to getting food from Africa or South America with no disruption, which was really dumb. Hearing supposedly educated people spouting that kind of nonsense really drives home why you need people who have technical know-how in decision making positions.

This does require May to soften substantially her red lines - in that we stay in the customs union. She hasn't given herself much leeway in saying we aren't moving much from these terms in the white paper and expect to survive as PM.

What really is shocking that we have to even plan for this. This is a real tangible risk now. Not fanatics preaching on a street corner. I can undertand the need for plans for emergency measures in case of an asteroid impact etc. However this is planned problems. If you even have to consider that your approach is in effect to apply processes that are usually reserved for natural disasters or war time then a government really should take a step back and look at what it is doing because you hardly want to put the country you are leading into such a situation that is equivalent.

Effectively you are saying a hard Wrexit will be a natural disaster.

With there strategy up to now being kick the can down the road, and put forward ideas that will not work and will be rejected as soon as the EU looked at it,
i think this was there plan all along. The stockpiles are going to last weeks, even if we pay more for our food (from the EU) or get it from other sources
we are still going to have the big problem of our borders not being capable of checking all the freight, I mean is there plan- let's just not check most of it, It'll be ok.

To me this adds up. They want to lose power for now (why they are blaming the EU, why may has taken over negotiations, so she can be kicked out and the others can say it wasn't us,
why they are stockpiling, so the country can survive for the first few weeks until parliament kicks them out, prob. with the help of pro brexit tory mps.)
I also believe that may explain this new pay rise for some public sector workers,despite not getting any extra money from the treasury or why a few months back they started spreading
rhetoric about that made political pundits think we were having another election. They were making a legacy.
but they don't want to lose power forever, aload of deaths on there hands wouldn't be very good, and dropping corbyn in a damned if you do (stay out and desperately try to make it work
with the

poor preparations the torys have put in place) damned if you don't (rejoin the EU, probably with less powers and no rebate) would be an absolute dream for them.

**Riquende**

Shamelessly stolen from a random youtube comment:

"Can't we just remain in the EU and send big red buses round the country with 'we have left the EU' on the side?" Surely that would make everone happy."

**GoatboyBeta**

Jazzpot1707 wrote:
With there strategy up to now being kick the can down the road, and put forward ideas that will not work and will be rejected as soon as the EU looked at it,
i think this was there plan all along. The stockpiles are going to last weeks, even if we pay more for our food (from the EU) or get it from other sources
we are still going to have the big problem of our borders not being capable of checking all the freight, I mean is there plan- let's just not check most of it, It'll be ok.

To me this adds up. They want to lose power for now (why they are blaming the EU, why may has taken over negotiations, so she can be kicked out and the others can say it wasn't us,
why they are stockpiling, so the country can survive for the first few weeks until parliament kicks them out, prob. with the help of pro brexit tory mps.)
I also believe that may explain this new pay rise for some public sector workers,despite not getting any extra money from the treasury or why a few months back they started spreading
rhetoric about that made political pundits think we were having another election. They were making a legacy.
but they don't want to lose power forever, aload of deaths on there hands wouldn't be very good, and dropping corbyn in a damned if you do (stay out and desperately try to make it work
with the poor preparations the torys have put in place) damned if you don't (rejoin the EU, probably with less powers and no rebate) would be an absolute dream for them.

The main problem I see with this theory is that it would require a grasp of long term planning, unity and a degree of selflessness. All qualities that large swathes of the Conservative party have been shown not to possess.

**Kilkrazy**

Good!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/isis-jihadis-beatles-death-penalty-home-office-suspend-sajid-javid-a8465641.html

The Home Secretary has turned back on its previous (very bad) decision not to oppose the death penalty for the "ISIL Beatles".

I hold no love for them as individuals, but I believe it is very important for the country to stick to its principles.

**r_squared**

Another failed privatisation initiative from Chris Grayling and the conservatives...

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jul/27/private-probation-companies-contracts-ended-early-justice

You have to wonder if anything this bunch of tossers do, or come up with, doesn't turn to complete gak.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Good!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/isis-jihadis-beatles-death-penalty-home-office-suspend-sajid-javid-a8465641.html

The Home Secretary has turned back on its previous (very bad) decision not to oppose the death penalty for the "ISIL Beatles".

I hold no love for them as individuals, but I believe it is very important for the country to stick to its principles.

I agree, whilst I don't particularly care if these animals live or die, we shouldn't let the country's principles be dragged down by their actions. Our principles are in short supply and one of the only things we have left after 8 years of appallingly bad governance.

**Da krimson barun**

A terrible injustice. Execution is absolutely against British principles. Any decent country would have used a Goverment-Sponsored death squad to kill them in a street along with half a dozen people of their religion, then shoddily covered it up.