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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I still support Brexit, and for tactical reasons, and playing the long game, I have swung in behind the EEA/EFTA option.

Something that is going to fly very well for the rest of your maybe possibly future partners in EFTA.

"We're just staying here for a few years, probably make a big mess of the balance of power in the organisation then leave you. Again".

The UK has always enjoyed a reputation for a reputable and dependable partner, but it's not going to last forever if they intend to pull these kind of games off.

Herzlos wrote:
That's exactly our point.

And that despite the incompetence of the Tories and the damage brexit will do, you still want to do it, via some worst-of-both-worlds compromise, because you fear people will see sense and bring us back into the EU otherwise.

You also seem to ignore that the EEA option isn't going to satisfy most of your Brexit voting brethren.

You're forgetting facts as well. Let's pretend for a minute that Brexit never happened. We're still in the EU. We still have Cameron and Osborne running the show.

We'd still be looking at the HS2 debacle, the housing debacle, the Heathrow debacle, law and order going out the window, the armed forces getting run into the ground,

and a thousand other problems with education, roads, NHS, you name it. Staying in the EU wasn't some magic bullet either to the nation's woes.

But with Brexit, the system has been jolted. People will have to step up and solve our problems. There's no hiding place now.


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jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I still support Brexit, and for tactical reasons, and playing the long game, I have swung in behind the EEA/EFTA option.

Something that is going to fly very well for the rest of your maybe possibly future partners in EFTA.

"We're just staying here for a few years, probably make a big mess of the balance of power in the organisation then leave you. Again".

The UK has always enjoyed a reputation for a reputable and dependable partner, but it's not going to last forever if they intend to pull these kind of games off.

There is the option of making EFTA a true common market with some economic clout, if it's done properly. As I've said before, if we'd have stuck with a common market instead of a Juncker pipe dream, I doubt if Brexit would have ever happened. I blame Maastricht and Lisbon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I still support Brexit, and for tactical reasons, and playing the long game, I have swung in behind the EEA/EFTA option.

"When the facts change, I change my opinion, what do you do, sir?"

That's a famous Keynes quote, and one I endorse. The gross incompetence of the Tories has changed the facts of the situation, so I have adjusted accordingly.


I put my hand up and say I was in favour of an immediate activation of A50. But obviously, as outlined above, things are different.


I have decided to be flexible and pragmatic. If anybody is expecting me to fall on my kness, repent, don sackcloth and ashes and endorse the EU, then they've come to the wrong place.


That is my final position for the foreseeable future. You can take it or leave it.

The facts haven't changed. You've just decided to start believing them.

We need a compromise now. I don't know if EEA would be acceptable to you. But I'm happy with it for the short to medium term.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
But with Brexit, the system has been jolted. People will have to step up and solve our problems. There's no hiding place now.

This is demonstrably false. Everything is worse now and nothing suggests that it will get better in the future, only even worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

We need a compromise now. I don't know if EEA would be acceptable to you. But I'm happy with it for the short to medium term.

No we don't. If you're given the choice of being left as you are or murdered, you don't go for being paralysed as some kind of compromise to appease the bloodthirsty mob who want you dead.

EEA does not solve any of the border issues. You can keep ignoring this but that doesn't make it go away and make EEA suddenly a brilliant compromise. It is still fatally flawed.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I still support Brexit, and for tactical reasons, and playing the long game, I have swung in behind the EEA/EFTA option.

Something that is going to fly very well for the rest of your maybe possibly future partners in EFTA.

"We're just staying here for a few years, probably make a big mess of the balance of power in the organisation then leave you. Again".

The UK has always enjoyed a reputation for a reputable and dependable partner, but it's not going to last forever if they intend to pull these kind of games off.

There is the option of making EFTA a true common market with some economic clout, if it's done properly. As I've said before, if we'd have stuck with a common market instead of a Juncker pipe dream, I doubt if Brexit would have ever happened. I blame Maastricht and Lisbon.

So barging in like a bull on a china shop and basically taking over saying thank you for keeping the seat warm for us all these years?

I don't think the Norwegians or Swiss will be very happy about that.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
That's exactly our point.

And that despite the incompetence of the Tories and the damage brexit will do, you still want to do it, via some worst-of-both-worlds compromise, because you fear people will see sense and bring us back into the EU otherwise.

You also seem to ignore that the EEA option isn't going to satisfy most of your Brexit voting brethren.

You're forgetting facts as well. Let's pretend for a minute that Brexit never happened. We're still in the EU. We still have Cameron and Osborne running the show.

We'd still be looking at the HS2 debacle, the housing debacle, the Heathrow debacle, law and order going out the window, the armed forces getting run into the ground,

and a thousand other problems with education, roads, NHS, you name it. Staying in the EU wasn't some magic bullet either to the nation's woes.

But with Brexit, the system has been jolted. People will have to step up and solve our problems. There's no hiding place now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

All those were facts before Brexit, and yet you still trusted the government to be able to deliver the impossible.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
You're forgetting facts as well. Let's pretend for a minute that Brexit never happened. We're still in the EU. We still have Cameron and Osborne running the show.
We'd still be looking at the HS2 debacle, the housing debacle, the Heathrow debacle, law and order going out the window, the armed forces getting run into the ground,
and a thousand other problems with education, roads, NHS, you name it. Staying in the EU wasn't some magic bullet either to the nation's woes.
But with Brexit, the system has been jolted. People will have to step up and solve our problems. There's no hiding place now.

And now you ve added ten thousand other problems on top of the thousand that were already there. All that time spent on brexit was time not spent on anything else. Congratulations?

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
"When the facts change, I change my opinion, what do you do, sir?"
That's a famous Keynes quote, and one I endorse.

Never knew you did humour. You are immune to facts.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I have decided to be flexible and pragmatic. If anybody is expecting me to fall on my kness, repent, don sackcloth and ashes and endorse the EU, then they've come to the wrong place.

Then you are neither flexible or pragmatic. Just an idealogue shouting.

jouso wrote:
So barging in like a bull on a china shop and basically taking over saying thank you for keeping the seat warm for us all these years?
I don't think the Norwegians or Swiss will be very happy about that.

Typical of the little Britain lobby really. Being part of a 'union' is great when you get to throw your weight around and tell everyone what to do, but the second it's a 'union of equals', then the temper tantrums start precisely becuase they can't just boss everyone around.

If gb was the only country in the eu with a veto, I guarantee,you those little britainers would be all for it.

All those were facts before Brexit, and yet you still trusted the government to be able to deliver the impossible.

This is Dinlt. He doesn't actually care 'how'. He's all about 'visions' and 'headlines' but doesn't give a damn about detail.

EU still being blamed for being ‘stubborn’.

What a gak show this whole thing is.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


We'd still be looking at the HS2 debacle, the housing debacle, the Heathrow debacle, law and order going out the window, the armed forces getting run into the ground,

and a thousand other problems with education, roads, NHS, you name it. Staying in the EU wasn't some magic bullet either to the nation's woes.

But with Brexit, the system has been jolted. People will have to step up and solve our problems. There's no hiding place now.

Utter nonsense. Brexit doesn't remove any hiding places - Brexiteers have been pre-emptively blaming the EU for years and will do for years.

All of the things you mention are bad, but will get worse with Brexit, primarily because of the economic damage. Police/forces numbers will only go further down post Brexit, Heathrow/HS2 will cost a higher %age of our available budget. Any non-local components will cost more (Where are we getting the steel and rolling stock from?).

Brexit hasn't jolted any system. The same people are still in power, nothing is actually going to change except for the worse - those same people are in power but without the EU to slap them for inringing on human/environmental rights, for instance.

Honestly, what can you see getting better post Brexit?

I'd vote Labour immediately if they actually pulled their finger out and took an official position on Brexit by offering the EEA "Norway" solution.

Its true, it won't satisfy most Leavers. Its not a true, 100% withdrawal.
And it also won't satisfy most Remainers either, who wish to stay as a full member of the EU.

But what it does represent is a compromise, a halfway position that will allow us to defer the issue for another generation (or at the very least, another Parliament).

For Leavers, it will be a small victory that can be built on at a future date with a further push for full independence.
For Remainers, it will be damage control.

Just like Irish Republicans didn't achieve their full objective of Irish reunification, but they did achieve a small victory in Irish devolution etc. And for the Unionists, they got to remain a part of the UK. It deferred the issue of Irish reunification for another generation.

Typical of the little Britain lobby really. Being part of a 'union' is great when you get to throw your weight around and tell everyone what to do, but the second it's a 'union of equals', then the temper tantrums start precisely becuase they can't just boss everyone around.

If gb was the only country in the eu with a veto, I guarantee,you those little britainers would be all for it.

Its not and never will be a union of equals - there is no such thing especially where nations and politicians are involved..

All nations fight for their own interests in the EU - we have an official veto on some element - mostly because unlike most EU countries we were net contributors to the budget.

France and German had massive power for the same reason - eg the reason we are stuck with the dual parliaments is because of the French VETO.

If the other EU nations wanted equal say then they needed to contribute equally - otherwise they need to do what they already do, ally themselves to one of the big three to get what they want.

..did people vote to start living in the Handsmaid's Tale ?

https://news.sky.com/story/women-may-have-to-quit-jobs-to-fill-care-roles-post-brexit-report-warns-11463021

Women may have to give up work to look after elderly relatives unless EU care workers are given priority after Brexit, it has been reported.

The Daily Telegraph says that is the assessment made in a 37-page dossier drawn up by ministers on the impact of Britain leaving the EU.

The document allegedly warns that growing numbers of people, "especially women", could be forced to quit their jobs to give "informal care" to parents and grandparents.

Under the "worst case scenario", women living in Britain would likely plug the hole of 6,000 fewer doctors, 12,000 fewer nurses and 28,000 fewer care staff within five years.

let's put that on the side of a bus then yeah ?

Brexit! The gift that keeps on taking!!

No-deal Brexit poses serious risk to public safety, say police leaders

Feth me, is that al the EU was to some people: just a source of cheap labour from Eastern Europe to be exploited?

The good old days of pre-2008, when farmers were buying up slum housing, the minimum wage wasn't being enforced, and you had 10 Poles and/or Lithuanians to a house or caravan.

How the hell can I, as a socialist, ever support that? God Almighty!

As I've said many a time until I'm blue in the face, there was a time when we weren't in the EU. And we won trade unions, and we got votes for women, and we abolished the death penalty, and we decriminalised same-sex relationships, and we had same sex marriage long before that beacon of progression called Germany.


History shows us that the British people, if they so choose, can fight for and build a better Britain. How do you think we got the NHS? Was a hard struggle.


It's not set in stone that tories will rule forevermore and we'll all be back down the coal mines

Do you know how those things were possible? People sitting down, examining the facts and making realistic plans for change. Putting in monumental amounts of effort and thought.

None of which you have done.


So stop calling on the actions of people in the past, who understood how change must be carefully examined and planned, in order to justify your reckless drive to leave the EU with no forethought to the consequences.

Fighting for a better future still requires following some kind of good plan and a lot of determination.

No amount of fighting will make brexit a good idea. Almost all of the people with the domain knowledge, or those we'll look to, to make a success of brexit, want to remain. No-one wants to take any credit for Brexit.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Feth me, is that al the EU was to some people: just a source of cheap labour from Eastern Europe to be exploited?

Since when we're doctors and nurses cheap Labour? You're really stretching that straw man.

The good old days of pre-2008, when farmers were buying up slum housing, the minimum wage wasn't being enforced, and you had 10 Poles and/or Lithuanians to a house or caravan.

How are any of those problems caused by the EU rather than UK government?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
EU still being blamed for being ‘stubborn’.

What a gak show this whole thing is.

It's just plainly ridiculous now. Even when the writing is on the wall for the whole process and how much damage it will cause.

They are so completely deluded about the whole process or simply unwilling to admit they were wrong. Still at least Whitehall have it right

“Senior Whitehall sources” were also quoted by the Daily Telegraph on Monday saying that if the UK crashes out with no deal “we will make it clear whose fault it was”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/pound-sterling-latest-dollar-exchange-value-euro-brexit-no-deal-a8479061.html

This would be the Tories....

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
That's exactly our point.

And that despite the incompetence of the Tories and the damage brexit will do, you still want to do it, via some worst-of-both-worlds compromise, because you fear people will see sense and bring us back into the EU otherwise.

You also seem to ignore that the EEA option isn't going to satisfy most of your Brexit voting brethren.

You're forgetting facts as well. Let's pretend for a minute that Brexit never happened. We're still in the EU. We still have Cameron and Osborne running the show.

We'd still be looking at the HS2 debacle, the housing debacle, the Heathrow debacle, law and order going out the window, the armed forces getting run into the ground,

and a thousand other problems with education, roads, NHS, you name it. Staying in the EU wasn't some magic bullet either to the nation's woes.

I would rather lose an arm and keep the rest of my faculties to fix the problem after these 's have gone than chop my other limbs off, in the insane hope that taking all of my ability
to change anything will some how mean that everyone rises up and goes NOW IS THE TIME FOR CHANGE, despite all the evidence to the contrary, despite all the ability to do so,
and just expect everything will work out ok.

Are you barry from four lions?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAqIFtlH_hA[url]

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:EU still being blamed for being ‘stubborn’.

What a gak show this whole thing is.

Of course it is it won't work on remainers like you or me but on hardcore brexiters that don't listen to facts?
of course it will!.
Then when a no-deal brexit happens guess who they will blame?

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:I'd vote Labour immediately if they actually pulled their finger out and took an official position on Brexit by offering the EEA "Norway" solution.

Its true, it won't satisfy most Leavers. Its not a true, 100% withdrawal.
And it also won't satisfy most Remainers either, who wish to stay as a full member of the EU.

But what it does represent is a compromise, a halfway position that will allow us to defer the issue for another generation (or at the very least, another Parliament).

For Leavers, it will be a small victory that can be built on at a future date with a further push for full independence.
For Remainers, it will be damage control.

Actually everything i have read suggest a majority of leave voters WOULD accept a Norway deal, farage even said he would during the referendum but that was because he needed more than the swivel eyed loonies to win so had to lie.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
EU still being blamed for being ‘stubborn’.

What a gak show this whole thing is.

It's just plainly ridiculous now. Even when the writing is on the wall for the whole process and how much damage it will cause.

They are so completely deluded about the whole process or simply unwilling to admit they were wrong. Still at least Whitehall have it right

“Senior Whitehall sources” were also quoted by the Daily Telegraph on Monday saying that if the UK crashes out with no deal “we will make it clear whose fault it was”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/pound-sterling-latest-dollar-exchange-value-euro-brexit-no-deal-a8479061.html

This would be the Tories....

Yep and do you think the brexiter loonies will believe them?
The ones who are laughing at the idea of food shortages after a no-deal? presumably because we're GREAT BRITAIN

The moderates will, but that is why the tories are now courting the far right steve bannon et.al.

Jazzpot1707 wrote:


The moderates will, but that is why the tories are now courting the far right steve bannon et.al.

Indeed. The right wing in the UK is following the same trajectory of the Republican party in the US, where they have to resort to lies and trickery to sell their positions because none of them can be supported with evidence and research.

Brexit has brought this to the forefront but before that we had the utter failure of their austerity economics to even hit their own self-imposed goals and their support of the badger culls despite all the research saying it would not work (and again they failed to reach their own targets of animals slaughtered even after they reduced said target number), just to pick two off the top of my head.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-45085514

Call for a ban on people eating dog meat in the UK

UK law says that you can't buy or sell dog meat, but if you humanely kill a dog you own, you can eat it.

.. I did not know that.

 reds8n wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-45085514

Call for a ban on people eating dog meat in the UK

UK law says that you can't buy or sell dog meat, but if you humanely kill a dog you own, you can eat it.

.. I did not know that.

I read the first sentence and was confused. But when someone says dog meat that's what we call dog food.

So I was slightly confused that lots of people were tucking into a bowl of this before going to work...



Now I know how the Government are planning to ensure we have adequate food....

Then I read the second sentence and it made more sense. I suppose this applies to any animal that you 'own'. A pet, rabbit, hamster or parrot you could probably eat if you killed it humanely. I guess the only thing off the menu is human without fava beans...

 Whirlwind wrote:
I guess the only thing off the menu is human without fava beans...

Eh, livers regenerate as long as you don't take too much.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:
I guess the only thing off the menu is human without fava beans...

Eh, livers regenerate as long as you don't take too much.

Human's tend to complain though if they are being continuously sliced and diced...the regenerative process is also quite long and they need to be fed too to allow such regenerative action to happen.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:
I guess the only thing off the menu is human without fava beans...

Eh, livers regenerate as long as you don't take too much.

Human's tend to complain though if they are being continuously sliced and diced...the regenerative process is also quite long and they need to be fed too to allow such regenerative action to happen.

Hey, it's a delicacy.

Like I said, buy shares in Soylent Green.

In related news:

Shipping industry calls for Brexit talks extension

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Like I said, buy shares in Soylent Green.

In related news:

Shipping industry calls for Brexit talks extension

Of course extension is going to require significant change like elections or refendum as eu already said. Simply asking because deal isn't progressing would be waste of time and as such unacceptable for eu

It seems to me that the UK has run out the clock and there are four choices:

1. Withdraw the Article 50 letter and remain in the EU under the current terms. This can be done unilateraly by the UK and doesn't require a vote by the EU27. This of course would allow the UK government to set up another Brexit Referendum, restart the whole process, and get it right the second time. (If there is a second leave vote, not trigger A50 immediately and so on.)

2. Request an extension of the Article 50 deadline. This requires unanimous approval by the EU27, which isn't impossible and both sides may see it as preferable to option 4 below.

3. Agree whatever terms the EU is prepared to offer in the few months left. There isn't time to enter into a massive lengthy negotiation. The easiest thing is to pick an "off the shelf" solution like membership of EFTA, though this has various drawbacks in itself.

4. Crash out hard.

And uk has itself ruled 1-3 out so 4 it is.

The Conservative government has ruled out 1-3, but could change its mind if there was political will.

Ahem...

The Conservative government has ruled out 1-3, but Theresa May change her mind if she reckons it’ll keep her in the job,

https://osservatoriocpi.unicatt.it/cpi-archivio-studi-e-analisi-il-peso-dell-evasione-fiscale-sul-debito-pubblico

If the tax evasion since 1980 had been even only one eighth lower than the actual one and the higher revenues had been earmarked for savings, the Italian public debt would currently be no higher than 70 per cent of GDP, 60 percentage points lower of the estimated value for 2017 (131.6 percent) and not much higher than that of Germany.

that's one hell of a stat.