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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40512248


disgraceful state of affairs.

 r_squared wrote:
So, Theresa May asking for help from the other parties.
What is going on?

At the moment it seems like the politics rulebook has been binned off completely.
What's next I wonder?

Tories brought it all on themselves. Every last bit of it.

Time to watch them be hoisted by their own petard, I say.

 reds8n wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40512248


disgraceful state of affairs.

It was on radio 4 this morning, discussing the "gig economy". Tbf, this has been going on for decades, I remember working under a similar "self employed" scenario as a courier. Whilst it clearly works for some, it is easy to abuse, and those being abused are often powerless, and poor with few options.
Many employers are good employers, who offer a fair deal and look after their staff even when using zero hour contracts. They realise that happy and well looked after staff are generally loyal and more productive. But some people are just exploitative and willing to abuse. How do you deal with people like that, without damaging the system for the people it works for?

Tricky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
So, Theresa May asking for help from the other parties.
What is going on?

At the moment it seems like the politics rulebook has been binned off completely.
What's next I wonder?

Tories brought it all on themselves. Every last bit of it.

Time to watch them be hoisted by their own petard, I say.

Oh, I agree. People need to see the failure of their ideology, and come to realise that they've been lead down the garden path and lied to. They cannot be told, they must see it for themselves.
Conservatism as the party for the workers is being shown to be a lie. Their belief that unfettered business' will generate wealth for the whole of society with trickle down economics is total bunk. Wealth is definitely created, and it spreads out a little, but not very much.
If you doubt this, why, as one of the wealthiest nations in the world, is the state still having to subsidise private workers pay through in work benefits? Trickle down should mean that the business are free to pay a living wage to all workers, but clearly it's not.

The conservatives also talk about building an economy strong enough to pay for a public sector, by cutting the public sector mercilessly. The only public sector their strong economy will support is the tiny, small government model they desire. They're not interested in providing pensions, or health care or infrastructure, they want private companies to provide that and reduce the state to, effectively, the houses of parliament, and not much else.

That suits the professional classes, as they will continue to be able to afford the standard of living we currently enjoy, but the working classes will be fethed.

 r_squared wrote:
So, Theresa May asking for help from the other parties.
What is going on?

At the moment it seems like the politics rulebook has been binned off completely.
What's next I wonder?

But I thought the government had some amazing cake for everyone super secret plan?

I know some might consider me callous for this, and to be honest I'm amongst them, but we need to let The Tories blow up Brexit, big style.

To me, that's only way we can see their current ideology pushed into the political wilderness, it's failures writ large.

As a bonus, it might also help end the strangle hold the right wing gutter press have - after all, they were vociferous in their support for Brexit, and are the ones demanding it be as hard as it can be.

The only issue is, this is going to hurt. It's the socio-political equivalent of having legs cut off to save the body - without anaesthetic. And it's the little people that are going to be hit the hardest.

But it's necessary. Right now, Theresa May has ensured it'll be a debacle, and singularly failed to rig herself up a scapegoat. If that's not outrageous political incompetence, I don't know what is.

The only other alternative is the Tories realise they're hopelessly outmatch in Brexit negotiations, and plump for a second 'OMG are you really, actually, properly sure' referendum - which has a good chance of a 'lord no! Call it off! Shut them all down R2!' outcome.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I know some might consider me callous for this...But it's necessary.

All I could think of whilst reading this.



With regards to May appealing for cross-party consensus, it was restricted primarily to one issue, namely how to deal with the gig economy. And frankly, I actually like it. This absurd Americanised system we have right now where both parties shout and scoff at each other all day and put party before country is disgusting. It gets even worse when you realise that it wasn't always like that. The sort of action May is asking for on commissioning legislation to effectively combat the depredations of the gig economy used to be an option.

Seriously. I spend a lot of time buried in late 19th/early 20th century Hansard at the moment, and politicians occasionally used to put party differences to one side when something important to the nation was at stake. It's the reason why Parliamentary Inquiries have politicians from all stripes on board. Party is not supposed to come before service to the nation.

Yet Corbyn's response is very much in the American two party 'feth you, your dog, and the horse you rode in on' style, even though he has a chance now to substantively affect important workers rights legislation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40561807

This is important to so many people around the country right now. It's a chance for all parties to actually pass something that helps to protect the British worker. Now is not the time to be wasting time on juvenile political bickering. I mean, if Corbyn's response to this opportunity to influence this legislation is to prefer to lob a couple of rocks at a PM that's not going anywhere for a few years at least? It'll show him to be the worst kind of champagne socialist. Politics above people.

Because with thing the way they are, Maybot will simply claim any good idea that works was her idea all along, and her Puppet Masters in the gutter press will say the same thing.

It's time to watch the Tories sink under the weight of their own gross incompetence.

Ah. So it doesn't matter if people get screwed over for the next several years. Just so long as the Tories take a bad headline which gets forgotten in a week. Priorities first, right?

I agree with the above. The US two-party feth You Aresholes system is clearly broken and we don't want to imitate it in the UK.

Corbyn I think was making a good political point to offer May a copy of the Labour manifesto. I sniggered at that.

If May wants everyone to come with their ideas she needs to set up a special committee with representatives from all parties. That's how it is done, not by whiffling and speechifying slogans.

 Ketara wrote:
Ah. So it doesn't matter if people get screwed over for the next several years. Just so long as the Tories take a bad headline which gets forgotten in a week. Priorities first, right?

Tories have been screwing us for 7 years mate.

It's high time they took the political kicking that's long overdue.

Brexit is a bad idea. It's going to damage the economy. I just don't want to see The Tories left with any kind of scapegoat is all. They foisted this upon us. Senior members lied and lied and lied again throughout the campaign, and that heavily influenced the outcome.

Since then it's been one disaster after another. We're botching the negotiations already. If we can't stand out ground and get a half way decent deal out of the EU, what chance do we have against other countries when it comes to trade deals there?

That the Tories are, and always will, stuff this up is now unavoidable. The silver lining is that this could well bury their current neo-liberal approach for a long, long time.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

If May wants everyone to come with their ideas she needs to set up a special committee with representatives from all parties. That's how it is done, not by whiffling and speechifying slogans.

Seconded. It would show her to be making a genuine offer instead of just maneuvering. By the same measure though, she hasn't actually made the speech yet asking for cross-party input, it's all just been leaks so far. We'll see how serious she is when she finally makes her announcement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Tories have been screwing us for 7 years mate.

It's high time they took the political kicking that's long overdue.

Call it what you like, you're still advocating party politics ahead of people. With all due respect, that's not my cup of tea, and I won't be talked round on it.

 r_squared wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40512248


disgraceful state of affairs.

It was on radio 4 this morning, discussing the "gig economy". Tbf, this has been going on for decades, I remember working under a similar "self employed" scenario as a courier. Whilst it clearly works for some, it is easy to abuse, and those being abused are often powerless, and poor with few options.
Many employers are good employers, who offer a fair deal and look after their staff even when using zero hour contracts. They realise that happy and well looked after staff are generally loyal and more productive. But some people are just exploitative and willing to abuse. How do you deal with people like that, without damaging the system for the people it works for?

Tricky.

This case isn't about a gig economy or zero hours contracts. This is 100% about abuse of staff. Couriers and Uber drivers are a bit of a gray area, where there is an argument they are self employed contractors as they have a relative degree of freedom in how and when they carry out their jobs. Uber give a list of possible pickups and it is up to the driver if they take them, if they are working, what hours they do work etc. Some (depending on the company) couriers get a choice of when they work, and when they do they get a pile of items to deliver, but have choice about the route they take, breaks they take etc as long as they deliver in the agreed timescale.

This case these people had set hours of work, no control over how they worked, had to be in work when their boss said, could not refuse to and were clear that they could not work for anyone else. This does not look anything like a self employed person. This is illegal.

 Ketara wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

If May wants everyone to come with their ideas she needs to set up a special committee with representatives from all parties. That's how it is done, not by whiffling and speechifying slogans.

Seconded. It would show her to be making a genuine offer instead of just maneuvering. By the same measure though, she hasn't actually made the speech yet asking for cross-party input, it's all just been leaks so far. We'll see how serious she is when she finally makes her announcement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Tories have been screwing us for 7 years mate.

It's high time they took the political kicking that's long overdue.

Call it what you like, you're still advocating party politics ahead of people. With all due respect, that's not my cup of tea, and I won't be talked round on it.

I disagree that it's party politics, so much as an opportunity for us to redress the balance of power.

Before my time, I'm told the Unions had far too much power. I honestly don't know about that, because I wasn't there.

Now, it's all in the hands of ex-pat tax exile media barons. They repeatedly back the Tories, and are happy to lie through their teeth if they think there's another tax cut in it for them.

To see the Tories flounder with nobody else to realistically pin the blame on is exactly what we need to break that stranglehold. Dacre, Murdoch and Co have endorsed politics and politicians that have done nothing but lasting harm to our country. That's why they're so anti-Corbyn. Never mind his politics, they never saw him coming. That means they've not spent the last few decades trying to get him in their pocket by hook or by crook.

If Corbyn caves (and I really hope he doesn't), then you can guess who'll cop the blame for the ensuing recession. Here's a hint - it won't be the Tories.

You cannot tell me that a single party benefitting from an increasingly corrupt and dishonest press is at all good for democracy?

 Ketara wrote:
...if Corbyn's response to this opportunity to influence this legislation is to prefer to lob a couple of rocks at a PM that's not going anywhere for a few years at least? It'll show him to be the worst kind of champagne socialist. Politics above people.

Corbyn believes that another GE is coming, and the Labour party is still in campaign mode. He genuinely believes that he is the right leader for the job of Prime Minister, and can lead the country through the most turbulent mess any political party has inflicted on the nation in decades. He, and many others incidentally, certainly don't believe that May or the conservatives are not going anywhere for a few years.
With that in mind, why would anyone co-operate on what will be a Tory dominated legislation, when you could be ousting them and doing things your own way anyway?

Besides, trusting Theresa May, or the conservatives is like trusting a greased adder, she'll say one thing and U-turn faster than a boomerang on amphetamines. This was in no way a genuine plea for consensus, it's part of the political game she's trying to play, to draw the other parties in, and get them to take the fall. Just like they did with the Lib Dems.

Corbyn is absolutely right to tell her to feth off. Working with the conservative party, as they currently are, is an instrument for disaster for any party, and for the country. They have absolutely, and consistently put party before country, and have fethed this up themselves. Things are going to get gak for a while thanks to them, and people will suffer, but there was a lot of willingness to accept "short term pain for long term gain" amongst Brexiteers. I for one am definitely worried about the future, I have been since the announcement of the referendum, but if it means a radical roots up rethink of our national political system, and the splintering and discrediting of the right, then I think it'd probably be worth it for future generations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40512248


disgraceful state of affairs.

It was on radio 4 this morning, discussing the "gig economy". Tbf, this has been going on for decades, I remember working under a similar "self employed" scenario as a courier. Whilst it clearly works for some, it is easy to abuse, and those being abused are often powerless, and poor with few options.
Many employers are good employers, who offer a fair deal and look after their staff even when using zero hour contracts. They realise that happy and well looked after staff are generally loyal and more productive. But some people are just exploitative and willing to abuse. How do you deal with people like that, without damaging the system for the people it works for?

Tricky.

This case isn't about a gig economy or zero hours contracts. This is 100% about abuse of staff. Couriers and Uber drivers are a bit of a gray area, where there is an argument they are self employed contractors as they have a relative degree of freedom in how and when they carry out their jobs. Uber give a list of possible pickups and it is up to the driver if they take them, if they are working, what hours they do work etc. Some (depending on the company) couriers get a choice of when they work, and when they do they get a pile of items to deliver, but have choice about the route they take, breaks they take etc as long as they deliver in the agreed timescale.

This case these people had set hours of work, no control over how they worked, had to be in work when their boss said, could not refuse to and were clear that they could not work for anyone else. This does not look anything like a self employed person. This is illegal.

Well yes, I did mention that the system of zero hours contracts and self employment is open to abuse and exploitation, and the radio program I listened to was discussing the Taylor review. Which, whilst obviously different to the link which describes a thoroughly illegal set of practices, is related to a culture of exploitation of employment laws thats been in place for decades. Your last sentence particulary, exactly described the conditions I worked under as a courier back in the 90s, so these "employment" cultures have been around for a while. As for couriers, believe me, there isn't much "choice" about routings or breaks when you dispatch, you're very much a whipped mule.

I'm of the opinion that for the most part, all mainstream political parties and position have good and bad points, and all will feth up stuff equally as much as fix it. The trick is to swap them in and out of government in such an order that a rough status quo is maintained.

Accordingly, to me? Any political opinion that starts with 'X are evil gits therefore we need to do absolutely anything to get rid of them' is just missing the better points of that party and the fact the replacements will do just as badly (albeit in different fields). And therefore promoting removing a party at all costs is championing party politics above the wellbeing of the country.

That is however, solely my opinion.

 r_squared wrote:


Well yes, I did mention that the system of zero hours contracts and self employment is open to abuse and exploitation, and the radio program I listened to was discussing the Taylor review. Which, whilst obviously different to the link which describes a thoroughly illegal set of practices, is related to a culture of exploitation of employment laws thats been in place for decades. Your last sentence particulary, exactly described the conditions I worked under as a courier back in the 90s, so these "employment" cultures have been around for a while. As for couriers, believe me, there isn't much "choice" about routings or breaks when you dispatch, you're very much a whipped mule.

It is, but my point is that this case is not about abuse or exploitation. It's a flagrantly illegal act. The full force of the law needs to come down hard on these people who are wrongfully claiming employees are self employed. It sounds like you were an employee, and the law is quite clear about who is and is not an employee. The law does not need changing (well, it does, but not for this reason), it needs enforcement and education. Educate the public about this kind of abuse so people complain and come down hard on employers, and those employees that knowingly abuse this law for their gain (for example contractors abusing IR35 rules).

 Steve steveson wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40512248


disgraceful state of affairs.

It was on radio 4 this morning, discussing the "gig economy". Tbf, this has been going on for decades, I remember working under a similar "self employed" scenario as a courier. Whilst it clearly works for some, it is easy to abuse, and those being abused are often powerless, and poor with few options.
Many employers are good employers, who offer a fair deal and look after their staff even when using zero hour contracts. They realise that happy and well looked after staff are generally loyal and more productive. But some people are just exploitative and willing to abuse. How do you deal with people like that, without damaging the system for the people it works for?

Tricky.

This case isn't about a gig economy or zero hours contracts. This is 100% about abuse of staff. Couriers and Uber drivers are a bit of a gray area, where there is an argument they are self employed contractors as they have a relative degree of freedom in how and when they carry out their jobs.

Some countries have coded a sort of "self-employed but dependent" giving some protections that are usually only available to hired workers to otherwise self-employed people.

It requires that you make something like 80% of your turnover from a single client, but of course it requires the paying company to acknowledge the situation (which may lead to labour inspections).

My wife found herself like that for over two years, when a single customer basically had her on retainer and couldn't take anything else excepta few minor jobs (she's a graphic designer, btw) so it's not always questionable business practices that lead to this situation.

 Ketara wrote:
Ah. So it doesn't matter if people get screwed over for the next several years.

...Oooh, I know this one :

Not if we " take back control."... err.... blue passports.. and something something written on a bus


.. no ?



Meanwhile :

Theresa May says it was "entirely reasonable" for Ivanka Trump to take her father's seat at the G20 summit.

Uh huh.

Of course.

I'm not sure if this is further evidence of May having the spinal strength of a paraplegic amoeba or yet another display about how we don't need experts anymore, apparently.

TBF perhaps that'll be our Brexit talks strategy :

we'll send along some entirely unconnected to the UK and/or unqualified -- and as/when/if there's no palatable deal simply cry out that said person isn't in fact anything to do with us at all so the whole thing thus far is null and void and we need to start over again.

I joke of course, that's more of a plan than we do have.

The BBC reports that the phrase "Brexit means Brexit" has become a common saying around Europe for something useless and vapid.

Besides, the "screw people" part is already done with Brexit. Mostly on the side who didn't want it, but that people like Ketara basically said "suck it up". Now it's the opposite situation, and suddenly it's all about uniting everyone for the sake of the country?

No kidding. You can't expect to have the others listening when they were despised not so long ago by the "winning side". And anyway...why would they believe it would be so worst? For them, it's already happening. If the people guilty of this mess could get to pay the real price hard for good, it's just a small compensation.

The Tories show they're doing a great job in sinking themselves all alone, like grown men and women. They made this mess and call their enemies to sink in it with them for free ? I believe the logical answer would be "no thanks".

reds8n wrote:
...Oooh, I know this one :

Not if we " take back control."... err.... blue passports.. and something something written on a bus

Sarouan wrote:Besides, the "screw people" part is already done with Brexit. Mostly on the side who didn't want it, but that people like Ketara basically said "suck it up". Now it's the opposite situation, and suddenly it's all about uniting everyone for the sake of the country?.

I don't recall ever telling anyone to suck it up about Brexit? Far as I'm concerned, people are free to kvetch all they like about things they don't like. So I'm not sure what 'people like me' are saying that sounds like that, since if they sounded like me, they wouldn't be saying that all.
I am mildly entertained however, that when I mention the absurd degree of separatism and factionalism on a specific issue (the gig economy), and absurdity of going all in on the side of any one party (because they're all bastards in different ways, as easily proved by the last hundred years of political history), it immediately gets bitterly conflated with the Brexit.

I mean, seriously? Brexit happened so now the country absolutely has to go up in flames to teach everyone who disagrees a lesson? It's cool for the gig economy to keep on going so that the Tories might (and it's not even certain) get another bad headline at some undefined point in the future? Labour should do everything they can to make the country a worse place in the hope that it might hurt May's reputation a little?

Jesus Christ Almighty.

Just to separate things out a little here for the record (since some people seem highly confused), when I said before that I thought it would be worth a little pain if the country left Europe? That's because I was basing it on avoiding worse issues of a different kind I thought were likely coming further down the road. Sort of a 'swerve and hit a granny to avoid the ten schoolchildren in the road ahead' scenario. I may have been right, or wrong. Either way? I had what I thought was best for the country in mind when I voted. It's not quite the same thing as 'Let's screw over everyone as much as possible to try and hurt a generic political faction'.

Unless of course, you're one of those people who believes that Labour is so much infinitely better for the country, and the Tories are just evil baby-eating Nazis in disguise. If you're one of them, I understand how 'Getting rid of the Tories by any means or costs necessary' would align with 'For the Good of the Country' in your eyes. I might think you're a little bit crazy, but I understand how the two would line up for you.

 reds8n wrote:

Theresa May says it was "entirely reasonable" for Ivanka Trump to take her father's seat at the G20 summit.

Uh huh.

Of course.

I'm not sure if this is further evidence of May having the spinal strength of a paraplegic amoeba or yet another display about how we don't need experts anymore, apparently.

Even Angela Merkel was OK with it. She said something along the lines of "Ivanka is a part of the Trump delegation and its perfectly normal for delegates to sit in for leaders".

Is Merkel spineless too?

Ketara wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I know some might consider me callous for this...But it's necessary.

This absurd Americanised system we have right now where both parties shout and scoff at each other all day and put party before country is disgusting.

Kilkrazy wrote:I agree with the above. The US two-party feth You Aresholes system is clearly broken and we don't want to imitate it in the UK.

Whilst the US system is very much a two-party affair, it really isn't fair to suggest that we've borrowed the hard-nosed, us vs them, party-before-everything attitude from them. That has very much been our gift to the world. US politicians have vastly more autonomy than UK MPs, MSPs, AMs, and MLAs do, almost to the point that they're utterly incomparable. They clash with their leaders and administrations far more frequently than UK politicians do (near-relentlessly, at the minute!) and regularly vote against them in favour of what they think is right for the country, almost always without recourse.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Is Merkel spineless too?

There's a reason she's in power for so long and it's not because of her strongly held opinions.

It's blatant nepotism. At least the German foreign minister (IIRC?) had backbone enough to react a few weeks ago.

And if it was Chelsea Clinton, filling in for her mother? Would you still feel the same way?

I doubt it. I think this is just petty partisan spite.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
And if it was Chelsea Clinton, filling in for her mother? Would you still feel the same way?

Of course I would, it's banana republic horsegak regardless of ideological affiliation. But HRC is a smoother operator than that and wouldn't prop up her daughter in such an clumsy manner.

Even assuming that it is partisan spite, would it make the complaint less true?

 Ketara wrote:

reds8n wrote:
...Oooh, I know this one :

Not if we " take back control."... err.... blue passports.. and something something written on a bus

Sarouan wrote:Besides, the "screw people" part is already done with Brexit. Mostly on the side who didn't want it, but that people like Ketara basically said "suck it up". Now it's the opposite situation, and suddenly it's all about uniting everyone for the sake of the country?.

I don't recall ever telling anyone to suck it up about Brexit? Far as I'm concerned, people are free to kvetch all they like about things they don't like. So I'm not sure what 'people like me' are saying that sounds like that, since if they sounded like me, they wouldn't be saying that all.
I am mildly entertained however, that when I mention the absurd degree of separatism and factionalism on a specific issue (the gig economy), and absurdity of going all in on the side of any one party (because they're all bastards in different ways, as easily proved by the last hundred years of political history), it immediately gets bitterly conflated with the Brexit.

I mean, seriously? Brexit happened so now the country absolutely has to go up in flames to teach everyone who disagrees a lesson? It's cool for the gig economy to keep on going so that the Tories might (and it's not even certain) get another bad headline at some undefined point in the future? Labour should do everything they can to make the country a worse place in the hope that it might hurt May's reputation a little?

Jesus Christ Almighty.

Just to separate things out a little here for the record (since some people seem highly confused), when I said before that I thought it would be worth a little pain if the country left Europe? That's because I was basing it on avoiding worse issues of a different kind I thought were likely coming further down the road. Sort of a 'swerve and hit a granny to avoid the ten schoolchildren in the road ahead' scenario. I may have been right, or wrong. Either way? I had what I thought was best for the country in mind when I voted. It's not quite the same thing as 'Let's screw over everyone as much as possible to try and hurt a generic political faction'.

Unless of course, you're one of those people who believes that Labour is so much infinitely better for the country, and the Tories are just evil baby-eating Nazis in disguise. If you're one of them, I understand how 'Getting rid of the Tories by any means or costs necessary' would align with 'For the Good of the Country' in your eyes. I might think you're a little bit crazy, but I understand how the two would line up for you.

Oh come off it, you're basically trying to paint this as those of us who are willing to put up with a little pain to remove and weaken the poisonous ideology puported by the Tories as somehow morally reprehensible compared to someone who voted to tell the EU to piss off?

I personally vehemently believe that the Tories are real threat to the country, every decision they have made has been for their own survival to the detriment of the country, and they continue to do so. They must be removed, and broken up in order to protect the country.
I believe that that is for the good of the country, don't try saying that because you disagree that you hold the moral high ground, because you absolutely do not.

 r_squared wrote:

Oh come off it, you're basically trying to paint this as those of us who are willing to put up with a little pain to remove and weaken the poisonous ideology puported by the Tories as somehow morally reprehensible compared to someone who voted to tell the EU to piss off?

Nope.

I personally vehemently believe that the Tories are real threat to the country, every decision they have made has been for their own survival to the detriment of the country, and they continue to do so. They must be removed, and broken up in order to protect the country.

See, I don't have a problem with someone believing the Tories are bad for the country, and that they should be gotten rid of. Don't even mind the 'little bit of pain' stated above. The country goes through that quite frequently, albeit in constantly revolving sectors. It's how economies work. What I do goggle at slightly is this sort of thing:-

Mad Doc wrote:I know some might consider me callous for this, and to be honest I'm amongst them, but we need to let The Tories blow up Brexit, big style.....The only issue is, this is going to hurt. It's the socio-political equivalent of having legs cut off to save the body - without anaesthetic. And it's the little people that are going to be hit the hardest.

But it's necessary.

Effectively saying that you want to this country to economically self-destruct? In order to do a bit of damage (and it will be a bit, the public forgets everything in a decade) to a single political faction? Sorry, no. I don't bite on the whole 'I think the whole country should get financially fethed in so many ways to get me a few anti-Tory headlines'. If I thought for one minute that leaving the EU would leave millions on the dole and a tenfold increase in home foreclosures, I'd never have voted the way I did.

Not to mention that in my mind, whether we stay in the EU or not was a generational issue of importance tenfold above which self obsessed spanker ends up living in Number 10 for the next handful of years. As said before, they're all going to screw us over in one way or another. Anyone who would happily put up with a repeat of the Wall Street Crash in order to teach us that the Tory ideology is bad clearly has a worse ideology than the Tories. I mean, 'People should all go through loads of suffering in order to educate them to think the same thoughts as me'? Really?

Sorry, but I do put myself on a higher moral ground than that. I'm not so arrogant to think that my view of the world is so truthful as to be worth the misery of millions. I've no problem with what you said there; I do have a problem with what Grotsnik posted up top. He himself said that it was 'callous', I'm merely agreeing.