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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: £1,500,000,000 so some religious fundamentalist nut jobs can screw everything worse than it was before.
And all because Maybot is so shockingly incompetent.
Some great race/religious hate you got going there. Throw in a little stereotyping and a that makes for a lovely comment there buddy. A shake of ignorance and tadada!
I await your evidential list of flat earthing, hanging homosexuals and being scared of old ladies with warts. Add in a a guardian article on bad Northern Ireland unionists just for a laugh too!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: I think you underestimate the ability of the EU and British negotiators to hammer out a remarkably complicated, flexible and acceptable arrangement.
We should be honest and recognise that Hard Brexiteers and the DUP are the key obstacles to overcome, and they are minorities though endowed with greater power than their democratic mandate would indicate.
To put it in plainer language, if the rest of the nations could summon the courage to tell these people to feth off and die, the problem would be easily solved.
But then again when you have a MOD using language like ’feth off and die’ you just know these are good people right here.
Ad Hominem fallacy.
Didn't you tell a Remainer to "Tone it down please" for using similar language a week ago?
Indeed. Abuse of MOD privilege. Should be removed from his position, but it won’t happen. I mean actually saying people should go away and die.
It’s never helpful to tell anyone to feth off and die. Especially when that comment could be directed at a poster who doesn’t like the current deal. Posters like DINLT for example. If I was to say that everyone who took the EU’s side during the negotiations should feth off and die, would that be allowed to stand? No, it wouldn’t.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: £1,500,000,000 so some religious fundamentalist nut jobs can screw everything worse than it was before.
And all because Maybot is so shockingly incompetent.
Some great race/religious hate you got going there. Throw in a little stereotyping and a that makes for a lovely comment there buddy. A shake of ignorance and tadada!
I await your evidential list of flat earthing, hanging homosexuals and being scared of old ladies with warts. Add in a a guardian article on bad Northern Ireland unionists just for a laugh too!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: I think you underestimate the ability of the EU and British negotiators to hammer out a remarkably complicated, flexible and acceptable arrangement.
We should be honest and recognise that Hard Brexiteers and the DUP are the key obstacles to overcome, and they are minorities though endowed with greater power than their democratic mandate would indicate.
To put it in plainer language, if the rest of the nations could summon the courage to tell these people to feth off and die, the problem would be easily solved.
But then again when you have a MOD using language like ’feth off and die’ you just know these are good people right here.
Ad Hominem fallacy.
Didn't you tell a Remainer to "Tone it down please" for using similar language a week ago?
Indeed. Abuse of MOD privilege. Should be removed from his position, but it won’t happen. I mean actually saying people should go away and die.
Thats a bit extreme, I don't agree with that, he's a good Mod otherwise. I just think Mods should sometimes recuse themselves from certain threads that they're emotionally invested in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/09 00:14:00
Knockagh wrote: I mean actually saying people should go away and die.
Yep, the thread trolls are jumping up and down again! And I've been so nice! But then if hard brexiteers and other scum 'fethed off and died', who would I make fun of for their fashion sense? I mean, seriously, that combination of SS Runes and Union Jack vest ...
I mean,seriously, all these guys do, all day, is work to hard prove me right about them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/09 00:17:21
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Knockagh wrote: I mean actually saying people should go away and die.
Yep, the thread trolls are jumping up and down again!
Trolls? Its about keeping the thread civil and constructive. Its about both sides policing and restraining themselves against inflammatory rhetoric and personal attacks.
How would you, or any Remainers in this thread like it if I said "The EU can feth off and die!" Or "Remainer traitors can feth off and die!"
You'd be offended, naturally. You'd probably respond with an angry retort. And things would get out of hand. Again.
Can we all please just make a concerted effort not to piss each other off?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/09 00:18:18
Calm your farms people, if you have an issue with a mod raise it via pm as you know you should, future people derailing a thread by whining about it will get a warning for dragging a thread off topic
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/09 06:36:18
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
motyak wrote: Calm your farms people, if you have an issue with a mod raise it via pm as you know you should, future people derailing a thread by whining about it will get a warning for dragging a thread off topic
Sorry I was unaware of any procedure to make a complaint. I will PM you and keep the thread updated with any outcome.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: You'd be offended, naturally. You'd probably respond with an angry retort. And things would get out of hand. Again.
Cap, only three people have ever managed to genuinely offend me on this forum, two are banned (or just left and never came back, not too clear), and HillPlace here is the third, and I don't hold out good odds on his remaining ban free in the long term either.
Believe me when I say it takes way more than suggesting I go and die in some horrible manner. I've been resuscitated three times, and while my occasional resurrection has been enlightening, it's not for everyone.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
I believed my remarks would be understood by their context to refer to the Hard Brexiteer members of the Conservative government, and the DUP, however it seems I have offended several forum members, and for that I am sorry.
Kilkrazy wrote: I believed my remarks would be understood by their context to refer to the Hard Brexiteer members of the Conservative government, and the DUP, however it seems I have offended several forum members, and for that I am sorry.
I’m sorry too, for having a go at you. I see now what you meant. Are we cool?
Alright points are made. Let’s move on and try and be civil to everyone regardless of which party they vote for, religion they believe in or economic policies they follow. Let’s hope no one dies because that’s never cool.
In relevant news, prime Brexiteer Gove has said the population will be able to change the final deal at the next general election.
How is that going to work, considering the next general election is 3 years after the UK leaves the EU, unless the government resigns or is defeated in a No Confidence motion.
Even if there was a massive swing towards a party with a pro EU position at the next election it would be to late. Getting back in could take years and we would be in a much weaker position than before.
Kilkrazy wrote: In relevant news, prime Brexiteer Gove has said the population will be able to change the final deal at the next general election.
How is that going to work, considering the next general election is 3 years after the UK leaves the EU, unless the government resigns or is defeated in a No Confidence motion.
I think perhaps it is trying to dissuade increasing calls for another referendum in that we can have our say at the next election. They don't want another referendum because it *might* overturn the result especially as more people are becoming aware of what it actually means.
What they fail to point out that by this time they hope to have gerrymandered the electorate boundaries to make it even more difficult for anyone other than the Tories to win.
Of course I'm not sure we'll ever persuade people like these:-
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Kilkrazy wrote: In relevant news, prime Brexiteer Gove has said the population will be able to change the final deal at the next general election.
How is that going to work, considering the next general election is 3 years after the UK leaves the EU, unless the government resigns or is defeated in a No Confidence motion.
He means that trade deals with Europe can be changed easily by future governments as the deals won’t be bound up by the legislative restrictions involved in actual EU membership. Once the transition period is complete the UK will be it’s own entity and any new government will be able with relative ease to form new trading agreements or amend existing ones.
Kilkrazy wrote: In relevant news, prime Brexiteer Gove has said the population will be able to change the final deal at the next general election.
How is that going to work, considering the next general election is 3 years after the UK leaves the EU, unless the government resigns or is defeated in a No Confidence motion.
He means that trade deals with Europe can be changed easily by future governments as the deals won’t be bound up by the legislative restrictions involved in actual EU membership. Once the transition period is complete the UK will be it’s own entity and any new government will be able with relative ease to form new trading agreements or amend existing ones.
I imagine that there will be several new governments in quick succession as one after another fails to halt the damage.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
UK -“Oh EU, this trade deal just isn’t working for us. We need to jointly renegotiate”
EU - “Can’t say I feel like bothering, so that’s a negatory good buddy”
UK - “Bums”
We just caved in to the EU’s demands to start with. We’re not walking away from this better off. At all.
Sorry yes easy is probably too flippant a word to use but it will be much easier to negotiate deals from the outside as it’s actually impossible from the inside.
I’m in favour of Brexit but I want a slow Brexit a very slow Brexit. I think the 8 to 10 year transition periods are sensible. Business can’t change at speed. A slow Brexit will be a careful Brexit. We knew Brexit meant difficulties ahead but I still feel long term it will be for the best. I employ a number of Eastern Europeans on my farm and I’m encouraging and helping them to apply for citizenship. They all seem happy to do so but that will take time.
Do nothing important in a rush.
You can’t negotiate a better hand if your would be negotiating partner is the one with the better hand.
Slow may be the better idea. But the whole thing remains a daft decision.
In what world are we going to come out well of any trade negotiations? What exactly is our best hand? What precisely is it that we have that other nations and unions want that they can’t get from somewhere else and in greater quantity?
Blind optimism just isn’t going to cut it. Whether disastrously so or not, we’re the ones to get the poopy end of the Stick.
We’ll be negotiating with the EU to start, yes? And when they get us right over the barrel, do you think any other prospective trade partners are gonna seek anything less?
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Sorry yes easy is probably too flippant a word to use but it will be much easier to negotiate deals from the outside as it’s actually impossible from the inside.
I’m in favour of Brexit but I want a slow Brexit a very slow Brexit. I think the 8 to 10 year transition periods are sensible. Business can’t change at speed. A slow Brexit will be a careful Brexit. We knew Brexit meant difficulties ahead but I still feel long term it will be for the best. I employ a number of Eastern Europeans on my farm and I’m encouraging and helping them to apply for citizenship. They all seem happy to do so but that will take time.
Do nothing important in a rush.
We'll always be worse on the outside. You lose to much from having to run everything on your own. You have less say, influence and so on. It's not like we will collapse but we will fall further and further behind compared to larger conglomerations or nations simply because you can't effect the efficiencies of scale they can implement. You only have to look at businesses as an example. It is the larger companies that are more robust and generate the most profit. Yes some areas aren't as successful but overall you gain much more from being in that larger organisation.
It's delusional to think that we are going to get any better trade deals than are already out there. More important countries are already stating that the UK can't get better terms than they are.
and we haven't progressed getting anywhere near any trade deals post Brexit whereas the EU are getting more and more under their belt. For example because of all the Wrexit issues it was missed that the EU has just agreed a trade agreement with Japan
Yet this is what we get when people state they want a clear ability to distinguish between the left and right. What we are getting is a hard right and hard left and the realistic centre ground is losing a voice because of it. Both the hard right of the Tories and hard left of labour will do no benefits to the country in the end.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/10 11:00:42
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Yet a defined left and right is exactly what this country has been missing.
Consider the 2010 election. We had a choice between Tory, Diet Tory and seemingly Full Strength Insanity Flavour Tory.
And since then, the Tories have been beholden to the swivel eyed loonies in their ranks.
Top it all off with the youngest and the poorest being made to carry the can for situations not of their own making, is it really any surprise that we’re seeing a resurgence of socialist thinking? The current Tory brand of capitalism has solely benefited those lucky enough to jump on the gravy train when it first pulled away. Everyone too young to be there at the time has been utterly shafted. Cost of living rising, house prices going insane, and an artificial suppression of wages.
The along comes Jeremy Corbyn, who explains it really doesn’t need to be this way. A shadow cabinet who can readily explain that whilst some socialist policies cost money in the short term, they can and will pay for themselves in the long term.
As I’ve repeatedly said, privatisation has utterly failed. Rail costs rising above wages. Electric, Gas and Water Companies charging ‘think of a number’ prices. Hell, in my local area, the council wants to cut funding to public transport, whilst granting themselves a 15% pay rise?
You may bang on about how ‘dangerous’ the hard left are. But I say it’s a necessity to redress the balance. To use a Cameron sound bite - We Can’t Go On Like This. We’ve got a completely clueless government in bed with some truly worrying types - worrying types they had to bribe with money we’d just been told doesn’t actually exist - except when the Tories need to pull their balls from the fire. We’ve got a Health Service on its knees and being quietly privatised.
Neo-liberalism isn’t failing. It’s failed, and miserably so. To undo the decades of damage will take a radical change in direction, and that’s what Labour are promising.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Yet a defined left and right is exactly what this country has been missing.
Consider the 2010 election. We had a choice between Tory, Diet Tory and seemingly Full Strength Insanity Flavour Tory.
And since then, the Tories have been beholden to the swivel eyed loonies in their ranks.
Top it all off with the youngest and the poorest being made to carry the can for situations not of their own making, is it really any surprise that we’re seeing a resurgence of socialist thinking? The current Tory brand of capitalism has solely benefited those lucky enough to jump on the gravy train when it first pulled away. Everyone too young to be there at the time has been utterly shafted. Cost of living rising, house prices going insane, and an artificial suppression of wages.
The along comes Jeremy Corbyn, who explains it really doesn’t need to be this way. A shadow cabinet who can readily explain that whilst some socialist policies cost money in the short term, they can and will pay for themselves in the long term.
As I’ve repeatedly said, privatisation has utterly failed. Rail costs rising above wages. Electric, Gas and Water Companies charging ‘think of a number’ prices. Hell, in my local area, the council wants to cut funding to public transport, whilst granting themselves a 15% pay rise?
You may bang on about how ‘dangerous’ the hard left are. But I say it’s a necessity to redress the balance. To use a Cameron sound bite - We Can’t Go On Like This. We’ve got a completely clueless government in bed with some truly worrying types - worrying types they had to bribe with money we’d just been told doesn’t actually exist - except when the Tories need to pull their balls from the fire. We’ve got a Health Service on its knees and being quietly privatised.
Neo-liberalism isn’t failing. It’s failed, and miserably so. To undo the decades of damage will take a radical change in direction, and that’s what Labour are promising.
That's all true. but Neo-Liberalism isn't 'Social' Liberalism but they can easily be confused. There has to be a balance between state and businesses. Neo-liberalism can arguably be stated as the causes for such disasters as Grenfell (indirectly) as the state has allowed the watering down of legislation and allowing the controls to be decided by businesses which took the 'lowest reasonable cost' option. The state should be in control of areas where there is a high risk of monopolies (or at least provide a state option as a competitive marker) such as in the energy/rail fairs. However once you get to the point that a political organisation is purging itself of dissidents then you are stepping away from neo-liberalism reductions into social liberalism restrictions. It is the first step towards a dictatorship. Corbyn might not want that but by not looking into the purges and trying to control them then he is giving tacit approval to it (just like May is giving tacit approval to bigotry by pandering to the anti-immigration message, not listening to evidence etc).
I personally think that it was a shame that we lost Ed Milliband as Labour leader. Whether it was the experience of being a leader has changed him but he is more akin the Labour leader I would prefer to see; he is both passionate but also argues rationally.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/10 11:52:19
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Momentum are a grass roots group. They’re understandably interested in promoting candidates that share their political views. After all, you wouldn’t expect Gove or Johnson to endorse and support a socialist within the Tories.
The linked story above is pretty much hyperbole and fear mongering, and credits Momentum with far too much. It’s basically someone who doesn’t like Corbyn making stuff up.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Well I can only speak from my own experience in business. The EU has destroyed farming in the UK. It’s left us working for cost price and reliant on subsidies like beggars to make a wage. The most basic and valuable commodity, food, is produced at cost price. It’s obscene. Our workforce face dangers, harsher working conditions and longer hours than 90% of industry and yet most have to make do on minimum wage.
It’s imposed impossible restrictions that are unworkable. This year alone has seen the slurry ban cause chaos across the UK. The wet summer and autumn means farmers have gone into the winter with slurry storage full to capacity and no legal route to get round it until the spring. It’s an environmental catastrophe waiting to happen and all because of rules made by people in Brussels to suit farmers in drier warmer climates. Farmers are only getting through because local uk authorities are turning a blind eye to spreading but if there is an incident, the farmer will be liable for prosecution. A farmer local to me threw himself off a motorway bridge two years ago after a prosecution for slurry pollution, due to unavoidable weather conditions. We aren’t allowed to spread during dry periods when it’s outside season but can spread when it’s wet and in season.
Our standards are some of he highest within Europe, welfare standards much higher than EU legislation and we must compete with cheaper meats within the EU. Dutch chicken has obscene stocking densities that went out in the UK decades ago, halving their production costs. Their anti biotic usage is massively in excess of ours and yet they can import over us with no restrictions. I know some are saying Brexit will bring cheaper foods again but there is another way, we should I believe be aiming for self sufficiency in food. That’s why we must take things slowly, think about our future and what we want. A race to the bottom? Or a Slow climb to the top, which will involve hard work and determination, with rough times.
But in the end I believe we couldn’t keep going the way we were.
EAT - SLEEP - FARM - REPEAT 
