UK & EU Politics Thread

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**A Town Called Malus**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Frankly I would prefer the railway companies to run a good service of trains on time before worrying about whether they have free WiFi and charging points.

True, but if you're going to be stuck on a train for hours with no seat, no air conditioning and no openable windows the least they could do is let you browse junk on the internet whilst your train gets ever behind schedule and the temperature climbs steadily higher (or decreases steadily, depending on the time of year).

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

What really baffles me is that Trains are allowed to pack us in under conditions you're not allowed to transport livestock in.

I mean, it's crazy. I have to get the train home tonight, the 7:49 from Waterloo East. In theory, it'll be quiet.

In reality? I can almost guarantee a deeply unpleasant journey home, because of course it will be.

Oh, and one last moan? Utter gimboids who board the train early, and dump their stupid folding bikes where people will have to stand at the next station.

And double gimboids who sit in the aisle seat in the vain hope nobody will ask them shift their selfish backsides.

**reds8n**

Spoiler:

"Brexit supporters will present the EU's chief negotiator with a hamper of English sparkling wine, cheddar cheese and Shakespeare plays at a meeting in Brussels today, as they warn him against under-estimating Britain's global influence”

"The gifts will help Mr Barnier to fully grasp the powerful commercial position Britain occupies globally"

...

...yyeeaahh.. bet that really impressed him.

Doesn't at all look like the only prize at some awful raffle to raise funds for a church steeple or something.

Jokes about it's taste aside that's marmite, as in invented by German chemist Justus von Liebig, named after French earthenware marmite and produced by Dutch British company Unilever.

As is PG Tips -- and unilever has said it is against Brexit.

Churchill there too .... http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted, would as if by a miracle transform the whole scene, and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and as happy as Switzerland is today.

What is this sovereign remedy?

It is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom.

We must build a kind of United States of Europe.

In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living.

The Gin -- which is good is made by a company who imports goods from around the world and have moved their HQ to Dublin due to Brexit

...

Oh, what's the point

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/leave-campaigners-hand-eu-hamper-full-british-products-opposed-brexit/

and, presumably, it was actually someone's job to think this through.

Bodes well eh ?

STill let's retreat to happier times, a mere 6 months ago.

https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/850110198752591872

"Suella Fernandes says that there is unlikely to be a bill from the EU for the UK to leave and claims it is part of 'project fear' #bbcqt"

Oh yeah :

Spoiler:

and note those restrictions are more to do with UK tax credit laws than anything to do with the EU.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-breached-ministerial-code-on-reshuffle-day-with-tory-party-pr-stunt-in-downing-street-labour-claims_uk_5a5644ade4b0d614e48bcd1d

Theresa May is facing fresh reshuffle embarrassment amid claims that she breached the Ministerial Code with her Downing Street PR stunt to promote the Tory party’s new top ranks.

Labour has written to the Prime Minister to complain that she was in clear breach of rules which forbid the use of any Government and taxpayer-funded property for party political purposes, HuffPost can reveal.

May led a parade of Conservative party chairmen and vice-chairmen in Downing Street on Monday as she started her shake-up of ministerial ranks.

The Conservative Party subsequently retweeted the picture on both their main twitter account and the Conservative Press account.

But just one of the appointees, party chairman Brandon Lewis, was given a Government post and the rest were all party jobs.

Section 6 of the Ministerial Code – which was updated only this week - says that Government property should not be used for “party political activities”, a strict rule that carries sanctions if breached.

It declares: “Ministers are provided with facilities at Government expense to enable them to carry out their official duties. These facilities should not generally be used for Party or constituency activities.”

Those found guilty of any breach face the humiliation of an official reprimand by the independent adviser on the ministerial code, Sir Alex Allen, and possible calls for an apology.

Jon Trickett, Labour’s Shadow Minister for the Cabinet Office, told HuffPost UK: “Theresa May’s shambolic and much-hyped reshuffle was just a smokescreen for an overhaul of the Tory Party machine that failed to deliver the Prime Minister a majority at the General Election.

“Her shameless use of public property to bolster publicity for her hollow attempt to revitalise her broken party is a clear breach of the ministerial code.

“This is yet another example of Theresa May and her Government undermining the high standards of public office and she should apologise immediately.”

However, any breach of the ministerial code relies on the Prime Minister triggering an investigation first.

Section 1 of the code states that the process can only look at an allegation if “the Prime Minister, having consulted the Cabinet Secretary feels that it warrants further investigation”.

No.10 may also rely on a possible get-out clause that states “a particular exception is recognised in the case of official residences”.

Yet the Conservatives could be forced to pay up for the stunt. The code adds: “Where Ministers host Party or personal events in these residences it should be at their own or Party expense with no cost falling to the public purse.”

It remains unclear if the use of Downing Street for party purposes was cleared by Sue Gray, the Cabinet Office’s head of Propriety and Ethics.

One Tory insider told HuffPost: “As soon as they took that photo outside Number 10, my head banged the desk. An avoidable mistake.”

A Government spokesman said: “Given that section 6.2 of the Ministerial Code explicitly states that official residences can be used to host party events, there has clearly been no wrongdoing.

“A photo with a party political dimension, on the doorstep of the official residence of No10, is quite acceptable – and as Labour know that has been the case under successive administrations.”

Now as it happens I'm not especially fussed about a photo-op outside NO. 10 -- nor are most people I imagine.

BUt how badly run is an organisation that cannot follow rules that it writes and updates itself ?

**Whirlwind**

reds8n wrote:

Spoiler:

"Brexit supporters will present the EU's chief negotiator with a hamper of English sparkling wine, cheddar cheese and Shakespeare plays at a meeting in Brussels today, as they warn him against under-estimating Britain's global influence”

"The gifts will help Mr Barnier to fully grasp the powerful commercial position Britain occupies globally"

...

...yyeeaahh.. bet that really impressed him.

Shows how clueless some really are. Barnier is French politician. The country is the largest exporter of wine (and by far and wide higher quality than the UKs) as well as the third largest producer of cheese (and for the most part is by far superior to the slabs of fat we mostly produce). Probably thought we were trying to poison him after he tried some!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

reds8n wrote:

Now as it happens I'm not especially fussed about a photo-op outside NO. 10 -- nor are most people I imagine.

But how badly run is an organisation that cannot follow rules that it writes and updates itself ?

This is the Tories we are talking about. Item 1 of the new rules states "All rules here apply to all MPs with the exception of Conservative MPs; friends of Conservative MPs; relatives of Conservative MPs; those that have donated to the Conservative party; any Conservative party member; any people previously mentioned that inform the Conservative party an individual should be exempt from such rules; and Toby Young"

In more serious news, the NHS are now having to cut back on cancer care because they don't have the staff and resources. In Oxford they are going to push back treatment to the longest wait 'allowed' and discussing reducing treatment of symptoms from six cycles to four.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-42632450

Additionally hospitals are cancelling cancer operations (something the government said shouldn't happen).

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hospitals-cancel-cancer-surgery-operations-nhs-winter-crisis-clare-marx-royal-college-surgeons-a7527946.html

**Howard A Treesong**

PG Tips and Marmite. Jeeze.

**Steve steveson**

Whirlwind wrote:
reds8n wrote:

Spoiler:

"Brexit supporters will present the EU's chief negotiator with a hamper of English sparkling wine, cheddar cheese and Shakespeare plays at a meeting in Brussels today, as they warn him against under-estimating Britain's global influence”

"The gifts will help Mr Barnier to fully grasp the powerful commercial position Britain occupies globally"

...

...yyeeaahh.. bet that really impressed him.

Shows how clueless some really are. Barnier is French politician. The country is the largest exporter of wine (and by far and wide higher quality than the UKs) as well as the third largest producer of cheese (and for the most part is by far superior to the slabs of fat we mostly produce). Probably thought we were trying to poison him after he tried some!

The UK makes some of the best cheese in the world and our sparkling wine is doing very well winning award after award. Most of France wouldn’t believe you, mostly because the French have a deep belief in the superiority of France to all other countries and the belief that French culture, art and cuisine is superior to all others. This leads to a view of British food that is about 30 years out of date. In the last 15-20 years the UKs food revolution means that we have a lot of artisan producers making very high quality products of all sorts and winning awards in many areas. If you want to talk about slabs of fat you have to talk about Boursin and Laughing Cow.

https://inews.co.uk/news/worlds-best-cheese-announced-made-cornwall/

There are many things many Brexit supporters are clueless about, but I’m guessing they didn’t rock up with a box of seriously strong, a bottle of buckkie and a soda stream.

**GoatboyBeta**

Going by the look of the four presenting the "hamper" I wouldn't be surprised if three of them think PG tips still use live chimps in there adverts.

**Whirlwind**

Steve steveson wrote:

The UK makes some of the best cheese in the world and our sparkling wine is doing very well winning award after award. Most of France wouldn’t believe you, mostly because the French have a deep belief in the superiority of France to all other countries and the belief that French culture, art and cuisine is superior to all others. This leads to a view of British food that is about 30 years out of date. In the last 15-20 years the UKs food revolution means that we have a lot of artisan producers making very high quality products of all sorts and winning awards in many areas. If you want to talk about slabs of fat you have to talk about Boursin and Laughing Cow.

https://inews.co.uk/news/worlds-best-cheese-announced-made-cornwall/

There are many things many Brexit supporters are clueless about, but I’m guessing they didn’t rock up with a box of seriously strong, a bottle of buckkie and a soda stream.

French wine and cheese is by far superior. Competitions come and go and is subject to individual tastes and current trends. Also it's hardly a useful thing to evidence how good our exports are when these two items are overwhelmed by French exports of the same material.

**Steve steveson**

They have many years of marketing. Same reason people pay so much for diamond engagement rings (DeBeers marketing in the 1950s), Irish and Japanese Whiskey/Whisky does not sell like scotch and US cars sell so well in the US but not the rest of the world. Sales and exports is not evidence of quality.

**Herzlos**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What really baffles me is that Trains are allowed to pack us in under conditions you're not allowed to transport livestock in.

I don't think it's the operators fault here; unless they are over subscribing the reservations. Have you ever seen a passenger turn down a train because it's too busy? I've only seem it with every 5 minute tube trains. I've seen conductors preventing passengers boarding when they can barely close the doors.

**Graphite**

Steve steveson wrote:
Most of France wouldn’t believe you, mostly because the French have a deep belief in the superiority of France to all other countries and the belief that French culture, art and cuisine is superior to all others.

Sounds like another country as well. Maybe we should form a club. Several other nearby countries seem to have similar beliefs, wonder if they'd like to join.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Maybe I'm showing my age here, but am I the only person these days who turns up for a long distance train journey with a pile of books?

Free Wi-Fi be damned!

Edinburgh to Penzance, which takes about 2 days on our rail network. is the perfect opportunity for reading some military history.
Bring back British Rail

I don't travel by train anymore, but back when I was at Teesside Uni, or when I was travelling to places like Stockport or Nottingham for wargaming tournaments I'd take Game of Thrones books with me.

**nfe**

Steve steveson wrote:
They have many years of marketing. Same reason people pay so much for diamond engagement rings (DeBeers marketing in the 1950s), Irish and Japanese Whiskey/Whisky does not sell like scotch and US cars sell so well in the US but not the rest of the world. Sales and exports is not evidence of quality.

Absolutely true, but it's very relevant when you're trying to leverage your exports' economic power.

**Herzlos**

Indeed; when selling stuff to people, perceived quality is much more important than actual quality.

(Hence GW's success, or Mcdonalds, etc. Why aren't there Space Marines in that basket?)

**tneva82**

Herzlos wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What really baffles me is that Trains are allowed to pack us in under conditions you're not allowed to transport livestock in.

I don't think it's the operators fault here; unless they are over subscribing the reservations. Have you ever seen a passenger turn down a train because it's too busy? I've only seem it with every 5 minute tube trains. I've seen conductors preventing passengers boarding when they can barely close the doors.

Hey in Japan the conductors push passengers IN so the door can be closed

That's funny experience!

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

On the subject of cheese...

Cheddar. That's a genuine English invention, and exceptionally popular world wide.

Yes, I do like my Brie (oooh, Bacon and Brie sandwich....magnifique), but you just cannat whack a big block of Cheddar for the sheer versatility it offers.

Hamper was still a ridiculous notion.

**nfe**

I've only just seen the actual hamper photos. Two Anglo-Dutch products (one produced in Sri Lanka), a book about the founding father of the ECHR and visionary of a united states of Europe, a collection of plays predominantly set in Europe and including many reworkings of Greek and Roman originals. Booze from a very pro-EU Scottish company...

Nobody had heard of Northampton shoemaking? Tweed? Heritage clothing? Whisky? Britain is world leading in some (albeit niche) produce. They've just missed all of them bar cheese.

**Herzlos**

Even then we're only the 10th largest cheese exporter. So whilst we may have invented some of it (if one invents cheese), we're not really a world leader.

We produce a lot of world famous culture as well; plays, theater, films, music.

I'm sure it'd be possible to produce a good hamper with minimum effort, but lets face it, minimum effort seems too much for those running Brexit :(

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

We could export....well, deport the Daily Heil and all it's readers?

I mean, that'd be good for a laugh if nothing else?

**Darkjim**

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/jan/11/victoria-police-say-daily-mail-provoked-african-gang-flare-up-scuffle

I don't think they'd be very welcome in Australia

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Well, maybe not the populated bits. But we could just dump them all slap bang in the middle?

Get a middle aged, middle class Lord of the Flies going on. We could televise it and all. That'd be good for a laugh?

**Kilkrazy**

British sparkling wine -- the high end stuff -- actually is very good quality. We don't produce a lot of it though, and we do consume a lot of champagne, so this is an area where the EU should want to have low trade barriers.

That said, a large amount of British "exports" are service related -- things like banking, insurance, legal, design, research, education -- and don't come under a typical trade agreement. That is why people are talking about Canada +++ as a model for a special deal.

The problem is that the more special this deal becomes, the more difficult it is for the EU to make concessions without compromising the core principles of freedom of movement and so on.

**Herzlos**

Now even Farage is open to a 2nd referendum. Not to find out what people actually want, but to shut the remoaners up:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-nigel-farage-second-referendum-eu-membership-wright-stuff-video-ukip-maybe-leader-a8153106.html

Wonder what lies they'll make up for this one, or if they want to do it without campaigning?

**Kilkrazy**

There are two problems with a second referendum.

The first is what the question should be. The obvious choice would be a binary choice:

1. Accept the terms offered. (After we see what they turn out to be...)
2. Refuse the terms offered and stay within the EU under the existing arrangements. (Which leaves open the possibility of leaving again at some future time.)

The actual wording and even the order of the available choices can affect voting, though, so the design of the ballot paper itself is a big bone of contention. There is also the whole hassle of setting up campaigns. You can't not campaign. The Election Commission needs to oversee the process and it will pick two official campaigns to match the two questions.

The second problem is that a second referendum is unlikely to produce a decisive result (which I would count as being at least a 55:45 split -- it needs to be specified in the bill to make a new referendum.) Then neither side will have a reason to "shut up".

In any case why should they? I think it's insulting for a politician to talk about voters needing to "shut up" in a democracy, but that's Farage for you, a man who seven times has failed to be elected to the parliament he wants to be soverign.

**Darkjim**

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/second-referendum-voters-might-try-finding-out-about-it-this-time-20160825112920

I do know one lady who voted Brexit because she assumed it was like a GE, so voted against her Remainer MP, who she doesn't like, hoping he would be voted out.

I'm sure there were just as many who voted the opposite way for equally hatstand reasons, would be nice to think a bit more research goes in second time around (though I'd be surprised if it happens atall).

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Farage is fooling himself.

Ever since the result was known, it's been a non-stop clusterfeth of incompetence and straw grasping.

**Herzlos**

He's only out for himself here - if there's another referendum and he loses, he avoids being demonised for destroying the country and can claim he's been stitched up; que tv interviews all over the place, and maybe a book.
Or if it's somehow a clear vote for leave, he can press on talking about the EU having been validated by people. Queue tv interviews all over the place, and maybe a book.
Maybe he'll become part of that establishment.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

He's already part of the establishment. Always was, always will be.

Public Schoolboy, Stock Broker, Career Politician.

Doesn't come much more establishment than that.

**AndrewGPaul**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, maybe not the populated bits. But we could just dump them all slap bang in the middle?

Get a middle aged, middle class Lord of the Flies going on. We could televise it and all. That'd be good for a laugh?

Why bother sending them that far? Use that Scottish island that's infected with anthrax. Or that farmho0use between the carriageways of the M6; they could subsist on service-station sandwiches thrown by passing motorists.

**simonr1978**

AndrewGPaul wrote:

Why bother sending them that far? Use that Scottish island that's infected with anthrax...

O/T but that island was decontaminated and declared safe in 1990.