Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Again - this is not defending anti-Semitism of any stripe. Simply pointing out the ridiculous hypocrisy here.
Yes, yes. And discussing female r*pe without mentioning male r*pe in the same breath, is of course, hypocrisy of the exact same level. Or ever discussing right wing terrorism without Islamic terrorism. etcetc
A brave attempt at false equivalency there. But ultimately flawed.
Seeing the right wing press get out of their pram over anti-Semitism, whilst continuing to demonise Islam day in, day out. That is the hypocrisy.
That's nowhere near what you've tried to portray it as. It's more akin to criticising Islamic Terrorism, whilst claiming the IRA weren't in fact terrorists but just mentally ill freedom fighters who actually had a point etc etc.
Anti-Semitism needs to be opposed. So does Islamophobia. You cannot promote the latter and oppose the former.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Again - this is not defending anti-Semitism of any stripe. Simply pointing out the ridiculous hypocrisy here.
Yes, yes. And discussing female r*pe without mentioning male r*pe in the same breath, is of course, hypocrisy of the exact same level. Or ever discussing right wing terrorism without Islamic terrorism. etcetc
A brave attempt at false equivalency there. But ultimately flawed.
Seeing the right wing press get out of their pram over anti-Semitism, whilst continuing to demonise Islam day in, day out. That is the hypocrisy.
That's nowhere near what you've tried to portray it as. It's more akin to criticising Islamic Terrorism, whilst claiming the IRA weren't in fact terrorists but just mentally ill freedom fighters who actually had a point etc etc.
Anti-Semitism needs to be opposed. So does Islamophobia. You cannot promote the latter and oppose the former.
You can, it just might not be ethical, and reflective of beliefs held by the individual. It's certainly not impossible.
A brave attempt at false equivalency there. But ultimately flawed.
Seeing the right wing press get out of their pram over anti-Semitism, whilst continuing to demonise Islam day in, day out. That is the hypocrisy.
I'm afraid that as I'm not 'the right wing press', your answer really has very little to do with me. If I worked for the Daily Mail and regularly penned articles purely on anti-semitism, you might have a point. As things stand, it's just the literal definition of whataboutism. You're not talking to the right wing press about racism, you're talking to me about anti-semitism in the Labour Party.
I mean, I'd assume that you were just attempting to start a separate and entirely legitimate thread of discussion (racism in politics), but you keep quoting to me for some reason; as if me discussing one specific issue (anti-semitism within the Labour Party) is somehow invalidated by me not simultaneously discussing a related but far wider, more general subject (racism in politics). Which is clearly utterly ludicrous. By that exact same logic, I could easily respond that by focusing purely on racism, you're excluding sexism/ageism/many other isms to do with hatred/bias in politics more generally, and therefore dub your stance 'ridiculous hypocrisy'.
But that method of discussion is really very silly. And given that I regularly scroll past posts of you laying into the Tories on specific issues with no equivalent interest or focus on other parties/broader themes at the same time; it is quite clear that this is a somewhat one sided approach that you're taking to political chat.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/03/26 12:17:47
In that case, I'll rest assured that your posts had nothing to do with me, and neither did your statement regarding hypocrisy.
My whole point is that the gutter press are busy trying to smear Corbyn, when it's clear they're not afraid to demonise A.N.Other.
The Cross-Party Committee appointed to look into the matter concluded that 'the Labour Leader is not directly responsible for abuse committed in his name, but we believe that his lack of consistent leadership on this issue, and his reluctance to separate antisemitism from other forms of racism, has created what some have referred to as a ‘safe space’ for those with vile attitudes towards Jewish people.'
Having assessed the evidence previously presented, there would certainly appear to be merit to that conclusion. I would like Mr Corbyn to proactively acknowledge these problems exist, and then tell me what he intends to do about them. That would be the correct and strong course of action to take, one worthy of the long line of Labour fighters against race problems. The longer that he prevaricates, only taking action when his hand is forced by widespread press scrutiny? The more concerned I become.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/26 12:58:26
I wasn't criticising you personally. It was a statement about the ridiculous media hoo-ha.
As for Corbyn saying something, I'm guessing you missed his press release about the issue?
Which one? All the last ones I'd heard of were mealy mouthed fudges. This has been going on for some time, after all.
If he's recently appointed a taskforce to root it out, condemned all attempts to conceal anti-semitism behind 'anti-zionism', and taken action against the various people mentioned recently (say for example, the Labour whip who was mentioned as refusing to acknowledge the problem in that Jewish Chronicle I linked yesterday), no, I haven't heard about it yet. I'd be glad to hear that he has. Do you have a link?
EDIT:- Just found it's come up in the news over the last few days. Which is funny really, I haven't actually been paying attention (busy caring for my girlfriend's mother back from the hospital).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43535710 I'm happy to see Corbyn actually saying he's going to try and do something about it whilst condemning it in unequivocal terms. I'm mildly disheartened that it took another furore to make him do it though, it makes me question his sincerity and wonder if it's just political expediency. I'll guess we'll just have to wait and see if action follows the words.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/26 13:18:04
Make that the last fifty pages and the Tory party.
I mean, seriously, if I insisted on Labour's inadequacies getting mentioned every time someone slagged off the Tories, this thread would need to have another hundred pages added.
I don't disagree, but then people are open about it (I'm quite happy to say we should have anything but the Tories and UKIP leading the country). However it's when it gets put across as a non-partisan view - that is different.
Anyway moving on to a different topic.
It appears the Government are again shocked that we won't be part of the Galilieo scheme in the future.
So I can think we can conclude that Tory MPs memories last less than a year. But then they are mostly old and senile so really shouldn't be a surprise. They really shouldn't be shocked however. All nations protect their own interest when it comes to space safety (to put it into context the US have stated they will shoot down Galileo in a war if there is any chance an enemy can use it). However at least we can be assured that they UK build its own in such circumstances...
The UK is hence proud to announce the replacement satellite system instead of galileo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/26 17:58:23
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
I'm happy to see Corbyn actually saying he's going to try and do something about it whilst condemning it in unequivocal terms. I'm mildly disheartened that it took another furore to make him do it though, it makes me question his sincerity and wonder if it's just political expediency. I'll guess we'll just have to wait and see if action follows the words.
You could hope for the former but reality says that its the latter. I have always thought with the bar being so fething low for our politicians that JC is far more popular than he should be.
Make that the last fifty pages and the Tory party.
I mean, seriously, if I insisted on Labour's inadequacies getting mentioned every time someone slagged off the Tories, this thread would need to have another hundred pages added.
I don't disagree, but then people are open about it (I'm quite happy to say we should have anything but the Tories and UKIP leading the country). However it's when it gets put across as a non-partisan view - that is different.
Anyway moving on to a different topic.
It appears the Government are again shocked that we won't be part of the Galilieo scheme in the future.
So I can think we can conclude that Tory MPs memories last less than a year. But then they are mostly old and senile so really shouldn't be a surprise. They really shouldn't be shocked however. All nations protect their own interest when it comes to space safety (to put it into context the US have stated they will shoot down Galileo in a war if there is any chance an enemy can use it). However at least we can be assured that they UK build its own in such circumstances...
The UK is hence proud to announce the replacement satellite system instead of galileo.
The UK are the only country to have had satellite launch capability that have gone on to do nothing with it or cancel those programmes.
Still, we have some agreement over some understanding of brexit or some such. Are we still not out out of the EU?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/26 18:12:15
I don't disagree, but then people are open about it (I'm quite happy to say we should have anything but the Tories and UKIP leading the country). However it's when it gets put across as a non-partisan view - that is different.
I'm quite curious - this statement implies you believe the opposite to be true (namely, that my arguments are 'partisan' or strongly representative of a specific cause or party). What allegiance do you think it is I represent but am secretly hiding in having this discussion?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/26 18:20:32
Errr....okay? I asked you for your stuff on current Tory anti-semitism, which you mentioned in a manner as if there was no doubt about it and piles of evidence. I'm actually interested, so I'm mildly surprised that you want to end the conversation there.
I've replied with examples of racism in the Tory party. What difference does it make if it's anti-semitism or more general racism, I'm struggling to understand why you are insisting on the distinction, unless it is purely to attack Labour.
In order to do you the courtesy of searching for evidence of conservative party specific anti-semitism, I've looked and you're correct, there isnt much that I can find about conservative antisemitism, they seem to have a robust and well defined policy about that one particular type of racism, whilst seeming to have difficulty dealing with all the other types.
Apart from here;
https://antisemitism.uk/politics/conservatives/
So what does that prove? That the Tories are actually ok but not perfect at dealing with, or hiding anti-semitiism, but are utterly gak at dealing with all other types.
However, I am pleased that Jeremy Corby issued the recent statement;
"I recognise that anti-Semitism has surfaced within the Labour Party, and has too often been dismissed as simply a matter of a few bad apples.
"This has caused pain and hurt to Jewish members of our party and to the wider Jewish community in Britain. I am sincerely sorry for the pain which has been caused, and pledge to redouble my efforts to bring this anxiety to an end."
"newer forms of anti-Semitism have been woven into criticism of Israeli governments".
"Criticism of Israel, particularly in relation to the continuing dispossession of the Palestinian people, cannot be avoided," he said.
"Nevertheless, comparing Israel or the actions of Israeli governments to the Nazis, attributing criticisms of Israel to Jewish characteristics or to Jewish people in general and using abusive phraseology about supporters of Israel such as 'Zio' all constitute aspects of contemporary anti-Semitism.
"And Jewish people must not be held responsible or accountable for the actions of the Israeli government."
He has pledged that the party will have a zero -tolerance policy on anti-semitism and that there will be an educational programme brought forward in the party to deal with it.
I'm positive that those are not empty words. You maybe more sceptical but I'm happy to wait on the results.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
I've replied with examples of racism in the Tory party. What difference does it make if it's anti-semitism or more general racism, I'm struggling to understand why you are insisting on the distinction, unless it is purely to attack Labour.
Because....I was having a conversation about anti-semitism within the Labour party at the time? I mean, like I said to MDG, I don't mind having a separate conversation about racism more generally, or about anti-semitism in both major parties. Those are totally legit topics. But instead of engaging with me on the topic, you jumped straight to 'the partisanship of the evidence', and ignored it due to my apparent capability 'to overlook or completely ignore inherent racism, bigotry and anti-semitism which is the hall mark of the right wing.'
You very literally accused me personally of being right wing and brought in racism of other parties as a deflecting point, in order to dismiss the evidence I'd presented on the very specific topic of anti-semitism within the Labour Party. You then accused me of being 'obsessed with Corbyn', and meandered off into talking about how these things were 'exaggerated... by people whose interests lie in trying to use any means to smear the left and the labour party. '
In order to do you the courtesy of searching for evidence of conservative party specific anti-semitism, I've looked and you're correct, there isnt much that I can find about conservative antisemitism, they seem to have a robust and well defined policy about that one particular type of racism, whilst seeming to have difficulty dealing with all the other types.
So what does that prove? That the Tories are actually ok but not perfect at dealing with, or hiding anti-semitiism, but are utterly gak at dealing with all other types.
Just that. No more, no less at the moment. Which sparks the follow up question as to why you automatically assumed that they just had to be just as anti-semitic as the Labour party, given you had no evidence for that belief.
I mean, they may still be (I've no idea and no evidence one way or the other). But that's why I have no real opinion either way.
However, I am pleased that Jeremy Corby issued the recent statement;
He has pledged that the party will have a zero -tolerance policy on anti-semitism and that there will be an educational programme brought forward in the party to deal with it.
I'm positive that those are not empty words. You maybe more sceptical but I'm happy to wait on the results.
I am curious. Given that many times now over the course of this thread, you have either denied the problem existed, dismissed it as smears, or a right wing myth, how does that jibe with the Labour leader himself now 'recognis[ing] that antisemitism has surfaced within the Labour Party and has too often been dismissed as simply a matter of a few bad apples'?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/26 20:23:08
I don't disagree, but then people are open about it (I'm quite happy to say we should have anything but the Tories and UKIP leading the country). However it's when it gets put across as a non-partisan view - that is different.
I'm quite curious - this statement implies you believe the opposite to be true (namely, that my arguments are 'partisan' or strongly representative of a specific cause or party). What allegiance do you think it is I represent but am secretly hiding in having this discussion?
Because on this issue you seem to take time to provide very detailed attacks on the Labour party whereas other similar cases of bigotry/racism etc. you don't (such as in the Tory party). That would imply some form of partisanship because of the discontinuity in the two approaches. What that is I am unsure...perhaps you are a Genestealer Magus trying to welcome our Tyranid overmasters....
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Eh. The way it works is that when I have some time spare and something piques my interest, I do a bit more in depth research than usual (often in the process of debating something on here) and put together a mini-essay with my findings. I've done it before on immigration/crime relations, the impact of Brexit on the financial sector, Keynesian economics, various obscure points of history, and so on. I like educating myself, and am quite happy to be proven wrong, partially or fully (for example, I discovered that having more immigrants in an area does not add additional strain to school or medical places as you'd think, but does on fostering services). It's why I'm more than happy for someone to throw a load of facts about anti-semitism in the Tory party at me.
It doesn't happen much the Tories, mainly because you guys tend to have that angle covered for me (as said before), and partially because frankly, the Tories ARE heartless gits for the most part. It's part of their policy, and in the name ('Conservatives'). It doesn't require much research to uncloak the latest statement about 'The NHS having more funding than ever before' as looking at the physical amount rather than calculating with inflation/population increase. I don't need to be so interrogative, because it's often so flaming obvious.
But once I've done my research, I tend to remember it; so when I get fobbed off on the basis that I'm just making partisan style attacks for the hell of it (and I mean, come on, even Corbyn himself is now agreeing with what I've said it turns out), it irritates me enough to redeploy those findings. I'm far more interested in knowing and communicating what's actually the case than any crass party lines or allegiances. If the Labour Party had made an independent concerted effort to change things since we last discussed it, I'd be happy for someone to point that out. But....they haven't. Until now, apparently.
So I'll see what Labour come up with. I'm not hopeful, but benefit of the doubt and all that.
I don’t think Corbyn is anti Semitic and anything he’s done that can be tied to anti semitism by proxy, I think he wasn’t aware of or is showing some political naivety. I’m not even a Corbyn supporter, I’m not quite his brand of left wing. I don’t agree with so much of what he says, I’m only economically left wing, the rest I’m skeptical on.
I think a lot of claims of anti semitism are stirred up by the right wing media. Maybe these are present in labour, but they’re in other parties too: they get highlighted in labour because there’s a political agenda in parts of the media to attack the left wing. The Tories must be laughing to see Labour constantly fending off accusations of anti semitism considering some of the scum in their ranks. This barrage is politically motivated, and even if accurate, the focus is disproportionate. People in the media are scared of Corbyn because unlike Blair and Cameron he isn’t in their pocket sucking the dick of the likes of Murdoch to get good publicity. Watch them go on the offensive because some they can’t control someone edging nearer government.
I've replied with examples of racism in the Tory party. What difference does it make if it's anti-semitism or more general racism, I'm struggling to understand why you are insisting on the distinction, unless it is purely to attack Labour.
Because....I was having a conversation about anti-semitism within the Labour party at the time? I mean, like I said to MDG, I don't mind having a separate conversation about racism more generally, or about anti-semitism in both major parties. Those are totally legit topics. But instead of engaging with me on the topic, you jumped straight to 'the partisanship of the evidence', and ignored it due to my apparent capability 'to overlook or completely ignore inherent racism, bigotry and anti-semitism which is the hall mark of the right wing.'
You very literally accused me personally of being right wing and brought in racism of other parties as a deflecting point, in order to dismiss the evidence I'd presented on the very specific topic of anti-semitism within the Labour Party. You then accused me of being 'obsessed with Corbyn', and meandered off into talking about how these things were 'exaggerated... by people whose interests lie in trying to use any means to smear the left and the labour party. '
A couple of things, I've reviewed my posts over the last couple of pages, and I don't see where I literally accused you specifaclly of being right wing? If you're referrring to the comment that I felt your post was partisan in nature purely because it was solely focused on the Labour party, I apologise if you took that to mean I ascribed you as being right wing politically. For all I know you're a Blairite.
In order to do you the courtesy of searching for evidence of conservative party specific anti-semitism, I've looked and you're correct, there isnt much that I can find about conservative antisemitism, they seem to have a robust and well defined policy about that one particular type of racism, whilst seeming to have difficulty dealing with all the other types.
So what does that prove? That the Tories are actually ok but not perfect at dealing with, or hiding anti-semitiism, but are utterly gak at dealing with all other types.
Just that. No more, no less at the moment. Which sparks the follow up question as to why you automatically assumed that they just had to be just as anti-semitic as the Labour party, given you had no evidence for that belief.
I mean, they may still be (I've no idea and no evidence one way or the other). But that's why I have no real opinion either way.
Why did you delete the link which, as you requested, gave recent examples of anti-semitism in the conservative party? It clearly shows that 50% of the cases of anti-semitism in the party had unsatisfactory outcomes.
However, I am pleased that Jeremy Corby issued the recent statement;
He has pledged that the party will have a zero -tolerance policy on anti-semitism and that there will be an educational programme brought forward in the party to deal with it.
I'm positive that those are not empty words. You maybe more sceptical but I'm happy to wait on the results.
I am curious. Given that many times now over the course of this thread, you have either denied the problem existed, dismissed it as smears, or a right wing myth, how does that jibe with the Labour leader himself now 'recognis[ing] that antisemitism has surfaced within the Labour Party and has too often been dismissed as simply a matter of a few bad apples'?
Again, please point out where I specifically denied the problem existed, or dismissed it completely as smears or a right wing myth? I'm pretty sure every post I made had a reference to some action being taken against anti-semitism in the party, expulsions etc. I also stated quite clearly that there were members who had used innapropriate and racist language, but was also trying to make the point that there is probably a case that the right wing press is over egging the pudding.
TBH, I tried to bow out gracefully earlier, and I've responded to your points, and provided examples when asked but after you've had your final retort, I'm moving on.
I don't believe that antisemitism is on the rise in the Labour party, there are cases of antisemitism that need to be dealt with, and the party needs to provide comprehensive, clear rules and guidlines on anti-semitism and they should be robustly enforced. My hope is that they will, for the simple fact that once they are in place, Labour can focus on its actual political aims and take the fight to the Tories.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/26 23:49:31
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
Howard A Treesong wrote: I don’t think Corbyn is anti Semitic and anything he’s done that can be tied to anti semitism by proxy, I think he wasn’t aware of or is showing some political naivety. I’m not even a Corbyn supporter, I’m not quite his brand of left wing. I don’t agree with so much of what he says, I’m only economically left wing, the rest I’m skeptical on.
I think a lot of claims of anti semitism are stirred up by the right wing media. Maybe these are present in labour, but they’re in other parties too: they get highlighted in labour because there’s a political agenda in parts of the media to attack the left wing. The Tories must be laughing to see Labour constantly fending off accusations of anti semitism considering some of the scum in their ranks. This barrage is politically motivated, and even if accurate, the focus is disproportionate. People in the media are scared of Corbyn because unlike Blair and Cameron he isn’t in their pocket sucking the dick of the likes of Murdoch to get good publicity. Watch them go on the offensive because some they can’t control someone edging nearer government.
I am sure this is all true, however Corbyn's problem is that he has allowed the drip-drip of anti-semitism in the party carry on.
One of Corbyn's drawbacks as a leader is that he only seems to be interested in addressing that things that he is interested in. The plus of that is he seems genuine and unaffected, the minus is that he hasn't got any policy or fire in other areas, such as anti-semitism, to show the public he cares.
The way for Corbyn to see off these media attacks is to lance the boil. This would have the added benefit of actually reducing anti-semitism in the Labour Party.
I just want to say, as a jew, that the recent criminalisation of count Dankula makes me terrified. With two words that judge brought far more nazism into the UK than the pug could ever have done or did. Also given the details of the case, the precedent has been set that context doesn't matter. Just by typing 'gas the jews' here I'm breaking Scottish law if not UK law, I'm not sure how much exactly crosses over. Either way, that judge is an authoritarian crackpot, and given that and the ridiculous level of nanny state going on I'm afraid.
Oh and also I have no doubt a corbyn government would be pretty bad for the Jewish community given how much genuine antisemitism can be found on the left.
Indeed, this law allows the government, be it corbyn or may, to shut down criticism. Its now illegal to make jokes that a judge deems offensive kids. A completely subjective thing is now illegal. Let's all just bask for a moment in the continual ruination of our once free country.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/03/27 07:08:49
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
If it is determined that Vote Leave broke the law, does this cast the referendum into doubt? What would be the best solution?
The referendum? Would that be the non-binding referendum, that Remain spent the last two years telling us was non-binding?
Who cares about non-binding referendums? Not me
The irony of Remain being hoist by its own petard.
Parliamentary sovereignty and Acts of Parliament are the only game in town, now. Yes, The Commons could reverse the whole process, but
a) they haven't got the guts
b) Brexit is so far advanced, and the EU has been so cheesed off by Britain, that Brexit is set in stone.
As people have gleefully pointed out on these pages, EU agencies are leaving/have left London for other EU countries.
Can anybody see a French politician telling the French people sorry lads, Britain has reversed Brexit, let's hand those old jobs back to Britain.
Never going to happen. We're past the point of no return.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: I just want to say, as a jew, that the recent criminalisation of count Dankula makes me terrified. With two words that judge brought far more nazism into the UK than the pug could ever have done or did. Also given the details of the case, the precedent has been set that context doesn't matter. Just by typing 'gas the jews' here I'm breaking Scottish law if not UK law, I'm not sure how much exactly crosses over. Either way, that judge is an authoritarian crackpot, and given that and the ridiculous level of nanny state going on I'm afraid.
Oh and also I have no doubt a corbyn government would be pretty bad for the Jewish community given how much genuine antisemitism can be found on the left.
Indeed, this law allows the government, be it corbyn or may, to shut down criticism. Its now illegal to make jokes that a judge deems offensive kids. A completely subjective thing is now illegal. Let's all just bask for a moment in the continual ruination of our once free country.
Didn't the Met Police say on twitter the other day that people could be arrested for a crime, even if no crime had happened, on the basis that somebody might have been offended, even if they haven't been offended?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/27 08:03:40
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
The referendum is the only reason we're forging ahead with it; if it becomes illegitimate that might give May of getting out whilst claiming to be following the will of the people. But realistically it won't be delegitimised and it won't be voided. Nothing was done about it being based on lies, and nothing is ever done about the funding frauds. I doubt anyone will get their hands slapped or care too much since the campaigns were so dreadful anyway.
It's also absolutely not set in stone. True huge damage has already been done but we can still remain a full member of the eu.
We won't get the agencies back, and will have made ourselves look foolish, but it's still by far the best option.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/27 09:01:21
Herzlos wrote: The referendum is the only reason we're forging ahead with it; if it becomes illegitimate that might give May of getting out whilst claiming to be following the will of the people.
It's also absolutely not set in stone. True huge damage has already been done but we can still remain a full member of the eu.
We won't get the agencies back, and will have made ourselves look foolish, but it's still by far the best option.
Let's say for argument's sake that you're right and the referendum was tainted.
The Act of Parliament that activated Article 50 was however, not tainted. That was a fair vote. As were the dozens of amendments that Parliament voted through.
In this hypothetical scenario, it was based on dodgy evidence, but as we say, if Parliament gets fooled, or won't stand up for itself, then why should anybody else?
They could reverse it, but that requires political will and guts. The British people wouldn't be happy, because they will see the Remain camp being full of dodgy characters and dodgy money as well, true or not. Politicians of al sides are not highly regarded in this nation, as you know.
It's al perception now. Too much water under the bridge for Brexit to be reversed.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
You are entirely correct. However the people are going to be unhappy either way; most leavers won't get the leave they want and thus feel betrayed and disenfranchised. Few remains will get the leave they want.
So staying in order to keep the people happy makes no sense at all. I think it's being dragged out until May can find a suitable exit strategy for her and her party.
I'm watching this Cambridge Analytical hearing as it unfolds, and in the long run, IMO, it is probably the worst thing that could ever happen to Remain supporters.
Why? Because instead of taking a long hard look at why Remain lost, the easy option is there for them to blame the Russians/North Korea/ stupid leave voters/space monkeys from Planet Zog, North Korea, Accrington Stanley, racist leave voters etc etc etc etc
There will be no introspection, no did we run a gak campaign moment. And if you read 'All out War' then Remain did run a gak campaign.
The Remain campaign can be summed up as thus:
Osborne: we could lose this. We need to up our game
Cameron: It will be alright on the night. Trust me.
Osborne: we need a strategy.
Cameron. Just handle it George. I don't need this hassle. Got a lunch date to go to. Some dodgy millionaire will donate £60,000 to the Tory party if me and Sam Cam have lunch with him and his wife.
Osborne: We need Strategy, good PR, sound arguments, the press on board.
Cameron: There's my driver now. Bye. ..
It will be somebody else's fault, and when they adopt this mindset, and I say when if the last two years is anything to go by, they will keep on losing. And losing, and losing.
Remain had all the advanatges of big business support, a sympathetic media (the BBC being a prime example) and most of the British establishment on board.
And they still lost.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Sure Remain ran a fairly bad campaign, but when everything was written off as being "sick of experts" and when fighting that level of disinformation it's always a losing proposition. There was also a lot of complaceny since Remain was the obviously sensible choice.
Can you honestly think of anything Remain could have done to get you to have voted Remain? This was decided long ago, with the waverers being bought over by threats of immigrants and bribes for the NHS.
Remain could have put some effort to point out that most of the grievances from the Leave side had nothing to do with the EU, and in turn highlight how useless a government they've been, though.
Now some of the lies have been exposed as lies, can you see Leave winning a 2nd time?
Perhaps, but surely the reason those jobs would exist is to satisfy the migrants, right? They come for work, and if they're not going to come, then the jobs won't be done. Either way it's not going to affect us much. The effects to the while economy maybe, but you only need more jobs if the workforce is larger. Estonia (or any small country you like) isn't trying to provide jobs for 2 million people rather than the 1.3 they have. So why would we want more jobs than necessary except to satisfy migrant demand. Which you may think is a good thing, but the point still stands.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/27 12:55:58
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I'm watching this Cambridge Analytical hearing as it unfolds, and in the long run, IMO, it is probably the worst thing that could ever happen to Remain supporters.
Why? Because instead of taking a long hard look at why Remain lost, the easy option is there for them to blame the Russians/North Korea/ stupid leave voters/space monkeys from Planet Zog, North Korea, Accrington Stanley, racist leave voters etc etc etc etc
There will be no introspection, no did we run a gak campaign moment. And if you read 'All out War' then Remain did run a gak campaign.
The Remain campaign can be summed up as thus:
Osborne: we could lose this. We need to up our game
Cameron: It will be alright on the night. Trust me.
Osborne: we need a strategy.
Cameron. Just handle it George. I don't need this hassle. Got a lunch date to go to. Some dodgy millionaire will donate £60,000 to the Tory party if me and Sam Cam have lunch with him and his wife.
Osborne: We need Strategy, good PR, sound arguments, the press on board.
Cameron: There's my driver now. Bye. ..
It will be somebody else's fault, and when they adopt this mindset, and I say when if the last two years is anything to go by, they will keep on losing. And losing, and losing.
Remain had all the advanatges of big business support, a sympathetic media (the BBC being a prime example) and most of the British establishment on board.
And they still lost.
I disagree entirely.
Remain was your mainstream parties. Your Labour, your Conservatives. They both need to watch what election pledges they make, as they both have a genuine shot at winding up running things. Nothing too spectacular, nothing unworkable. And keep the negatives/how you'll pay for the positives on the downlow.
Leave? They had the enviable Lib Dem impression. You're never, ever, EVER going to have to deliver on your promises, so just say whatever you want. It's not actually a big fat lie if you don't win, is it?
Only....Leave did win. And they did so by telling absolute whopping big lies. And look at the aftermath.....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/27 14:45:22
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
