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Kilkrazy wrote: I'm not ready to disown my parents for voting Leave (or Tory.)
OTOH I recognise that their ages (90 and 85) mean they are a lot less likely than my daughter (19) to be able to vote in the next referendum or the general election in 2022.
A sensible move. You may not get your inheritance money if you disown them
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: A free press, in a free society, is entitled to call judges whatever they want. Our judiciary is not above criticism nor should it ever be.
There's a huge line between criticising the judiciary and incitement of hatred by branding them "traitors" and "enemies of the people", knowing that it'd result in death threats and rage. You could almost claim it was a deliberate attempt to intimidate.
As for the resentment; you're happy to send us to the stone age for some reason, so you need to be aware that some people may have a vigorous objection to that. If doesn't seem unreasonable to want those that decided to trash the country to be the first/worst affected by it; after all it's what they wanted and we warned them against.
Just as we'll need to expect some backlash when the brexiteers feel betrayed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/28 15:52:56
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: A free press, in a free society, is entitled to call judges whatever they want. Our judiciary is not above criticism nor should it ever be.
There's a huge line between criticising the judiciary and incitement of hatred by branding them "traitors" and "enemies of the people", knowing that it'd result in death threats and rage. You could almost claim it was a deliberate attempt to intimidate.
As for the resentment; you're happy to send us to the stone age for some reason, so you need to be aware that some people may have a vigorous objection to that. If doesn't seem unreasonable to want those that decided to trash the country to be the first/worst affected by it; after all it's what they wanted and we warned them against.
Just as we'll need to expect some backlash when the brexiteers feel betrayed.
If the Daily Mail were leading angry mobs through the streets and trying to hang judges from the nearest lamp post, I'd be the first to say charge them with the mounted police.
But that's a long way from calling somebody a traitor.
As for the Stone Age, there are some people convinced that Brexit Britain is going to morph into Weimar Germany and we'll add need to carry our money through the streets with wheel-barrows to buy a pint of milk.
We're not going back to the days of Druids and building Stone Circles
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: A free press, in a free society, is entitled to call judges whatever they want. Our judiciary is not above criticism nor should it ever be.
There's a huge line between criticising the judiciary and incitement of hatred by branding them "traitors" and "enemies of the people", knowing that it'd result in death threats and rage. You could almost claim it was a deliberate attempt to intimidate.
As for the resentment; you're happy to send us to the stone age for some reason, so you need to be aware that some people may have a vigorous objection to that. If doesn't seem unreasonable to want those that decided to trash the country to be the first/worst affected by it; after all it's what they wanted and we warned them against.
Just as we'll need to expect some backlash when the brexiteers feel betrayed.
If the Daily Mail were leading angry mobs through the streets and trying to hang judges from the nearest lamp post, I'd be the first to say charge them with the mounted police.
But that's a long way from calling somebody a traitor.
As for the Stone Age, there are some people convinced that Brexit Britain is going to morph into Weimar Germany and we'll add need to carry our money through the streets with wheel-barrows to buy a pint of milk.
We're not going back to the days of Druids and building Stone Circles
Druids did not build stone circles. They were built generally it is believed as burial sites, places of worship. In reality in their day stone circles would have been deemed the height of technological innovation.
On the side of freedom of speech. Where is the difference between someone espousing a certain interpretation of Islam that condemns every one else as infidels but falls short of undertaking acts of aggression compared to papers calling people enemies etc. The former is considered hate speech and prosecuted, the latter is freedom of the press....
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
If the Daily Mail were leading angry mobs through the streets and trying to hang judges from the nearest lamp post, I'd be the first to say charge them with the mounted police.
... ...
It's a bit late by then.
You put yourself forward as someone who respects the rule of law and wants to uphold the British constitution and the sovereignty of Parliament.
TL/DR: British disregard of foreign languages has increased since the Referendum while the top five languages needed by the UK “for prosperity and influence” post-Brexit are Spanish, Mandarin Chinese, French, Arabic and German.
UK translation services are dependent on EU citizens and will suffer due to Brexit.
After 2004, when languages became optional for UK students once they turned 14, GCSE take-up halved, going from nearly 80% to around half that in 2017. Applications to study modern foreign languages at university have also dropped 57% in the last decade.
This bodes well for the UK's engagement with the world in post-Brexit trade euphoria!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/28 17:19:15
As for the Stone Age, there are some people convinced that Brexit Britain is going to morph into Weimar Germany and we'll add need to carry our money through the streets with wheel-barrows to buy a pint of milk.
We're not going back to the days of Druids and building Stone Circles
If things did get that bad, you'd still chose it over the EU.
I don't think we'll enter the stone age again but things will get a lot worse, particularly for people who like yourself feel that you've got nothing to lose. Every analysis has us as being worse off, and no one has any idea how we can make anything better.
If the Daily Mail were leading angry mobs through the streets and trying to hang judges from the nearest lamp post, I'd be the first to say charge them with the mounted police.
... ...
It's a bit late by then.
You put yourself forward as someone who respects the rule of law and wants to uphold the British constitution and the sovereignty of Parliament.
TL/DR: British disregard of foreign languages has increased since the Referendum while the top five languages needed by the UK “for prosperity and influence” post-Brexit are Spanish, Mandarin Chinese, French, Arabic and German.
UK translation services are dependent on EU citizens and will suffer due to Brexit.
After 2004, when languages became optional for UK students once they turned 14, GCSE take-up halved, going from nearly 80% to around half that in 2017. Applications to study modern foreign languages at university have also dropped 57% in the last decade.
This bodes well for the UK's engagement with the world in post-Brexit trade euphoria!
I never understood (or agreed with) Labour’s decision to remove foreign language as compulsory. Even without the current debacle, globalisation is a real thing and the ability for our population to be able to efficiently and effectively interact with others on the world stage is hugely important.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
The disdain for learning foreign languages has been a feature of British society since the days of Captain Cook.
When I was a lad at school
nobody gave two hoots for French or German. I suspect other dakka members probably have similar stories.
That's not to say there aren't people in Britain who can speak 37 different languages or whatever,
but even when we were in the EU, language learning was never popular...
I beleive it's a cultural thing.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: A free press, in a free society, is entitled to call judges whatever they want. Our judiciary is not above criticism nor should it ever be.
There's a huge line between criticising the judiciary and incitement of hatred by branding them "traitors" and "enemies of the people", knowing that it'd result in death threats and rage. You could almost claim it was a deliberate attempt to intimidate.
As for the resentment; you're happy to send us to the stone age for some reason, so you need to be aware that some people may have a vigorous objection to that. If doesn't seem unreasonable to want those that decided to trash the country to be the first/worst affected by it; after all it's what they wanted and we warned them against.
Just as we'll need to expect some backlash when the brexiteers feel betrayed.
If the Daily Mail were leading angry mobs through the streets and trying to hang judges from the nearest lamp post, I'd be the first to say charge them with the mounted police.
But that's a long way from calling somebody a traitor.
As for the Stone Age, there are some people convinced that Brexit Britain is going to morph into Weimar Germany and we'll add need to carry our money through the streets with wheel-barrows to buy a pint of milk.
We're not going back to the days of Druids and building Stone Circles
Jo Cox. Murdered in cold blood by a racist nutter, enable and empowered by our racist press, which normalises such bigotry by printing it on the front page.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Every foreign national that suffers a race hate attack? Lay it at the door of the Heil and Express. They’re the ones insisting all your problems are because of Them.
Can’t get a job? Them took all the jobs.
Low benefits? Them are claiming all of those. Even though they’ve also taken all the jobs.
Roads busy? Them are using all the roads.
NHS criminally and deliberately underfunded? It’s not the Tories. It’s Them taking up all the resources.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/28 19:03:44
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
nobody gave two hoots for French or German. I suspect other dakka members probably have similar stories.
Not being British, taking a language was mandatory all four years before the end. I opted for Spanish. It seemed the most useful of the options (others were French and German) all things considered.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
One of my biggest regrets is not leaning a language. Not from lack of trying. I took Spanish in school but failed the final exam. Written. Had the general idea but the spelling was atrocious. Now it’s all forgotten. All I can remember is “Me espanol es muy mal”.
Again this was pointed out prior to the referendum, but was -- again -- shouted down as project fear, if we all just sing the national anthem really loudly everything will be fine etc etc blah blah.
related
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Da Boss wrote: People should be held to account for their decisions. I would disown people in Ireland who voted to leave the EU and I would not remain friends with anyone who did so, as they'd be voting to feth me over.
How very intolerant and extreme of you.
By that logic, should we not disown New Labour voters who voted for a government that took us into the illegal Iraq disaster? 2010 Lib Dem and Tory voters, who voted in a government that screwed over students? Tory voters who voted in a party that is savaging the NHS and other public services? A lot of people have been fethed over as a result of other people's votes.
You won't have any friends left if you live your life by this philosophy.
If someone still supports the invasion of Iraq or the screwing over of students, then that wasn't a mistake due to not understanding the situation but a moral stance. And I would not be friends with people who held moral stances I disagreed with, at least if I felt strongly enough about it. Or they would have to have some other common values that I felt outweighed it.
With the Irexit thing, it's quite simple. I am living in Germany, married to a German woman. If we were pulled out of the EU by people who did not understand that being in the EU is beneficial to us, and those people behaved as many brexit voters have in doubling down and refusing to take responsibility, then I would have been screwed over by them with no apology. My life would directly be made worse. So why should I forgive them? They don't care about my welfare. My parents business and indeed my whole home town relies on trade from the EU. Why should I forgive them being harmed? I don't see any reason to. It's directly impacting my life.
On that note, I mentioned before that my parents run a bed and breakfast where most of the custom comes from British tourist. Due to the declining pound and general economic headwinds, business is down massively on last year. There are some other factors which make it hard to determine the exact impact, but their income is down by 75% in total and Brexit has to be playing into that. 75%. My folks are not extremely well off, they were forced into the bed and breakfast business after retirement after my Dad's pension was slashed.
So yeah, I have some personal beef with Brexiteers. You didn't care about these things when I mentioned them before and you don't care about them now. So why should I give a gak about you?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: The disdain for learning foreign languages has been a feature of British society since the days of Captain Cook.
When I was a lad at school
nobody gave two hoots for French or German. I suspect other dakka members probably have similar stories.
That's not to say there aren't people in Britain who can speak 37 different languages or whatever,
but even when we were in the EU, language learning was never popular...
I beleive it's a cultural thing.
Ha. Speak for yourself. I took my German GCSE in Year 9, GCSE French in Year 11 and OCN Spanish at College and got C's in all of them.
Sadly I never developed on them and went on to actually learn those languages. Lacking the money to travel abroad leaves little opportunity to practice in person, and little motivation . That might change now that I have a half French girlfriend. Oo la la.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Boss wrote: So yeah, I have some personal beef with Brexiteers. You didn't care about these things when I mentioned them before and you don't care about them now. So why should I give a gak about you?
You're changing the subject. We're not talking about "giving a gak" about each other (and quite frankly, with an ugly hostile attitude like yours, I'm not inclined to). And I'm not asking you to give a gak about me.
We're talking about you disowning fellow country men because they voted differently to you. Thats intolerant. We aren't talking about voting for the likes of the BNP.
And TBH, you've partly brought it on yourself. You chose to emigrate and live in another country. Presumably you intend to live the rest of your life in Germany, since you married a German? Why did you not then take German citizenship? I would have done, if I chose to move abroad and live permanently in a foreign country. I'd want that extra security of Citizenship, and to me it would be a very definite statement (to myself as much as to Germany) of my intent to integrate.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/28 21:59:11
German citizenship takes eight years to earn. I will take German citizenship, when I am able.
As to giving a gak, that's exactly what I mean when I say I disown them. I would not associate with them, or particularly care about what happened to them. So I'm not changing the subject at all. I don't care if it's intolerant, why should I have to tolerate people who make decisions that bring real harm to me and my family? That's bs. I don't have to tolerate that and can chose to act how I want to within the law. There's no onus on me to be forgiving.
I notice you ignore the harm that would be done to my family and friends. And I emigrated under a certain system. If you chose to change that system in a way that feths me over, that is on you: You chose to change it to make it more inconvenient for me. I'm not doing anything like that to you, just getting on with my life in Germany. You're the one who has made a hostile act toward me, in that scenario. Thankfully, only a small percentage of my countrymen think like you do.
Aye. I probably will. I hope all your compatriots who are in limbo in the EU due to the Brexit vote will also be able to get citizenship. Of course, it will not be easy for many of them.
I would be the least unhappy with some sort of EFTA outcome but it crosses too many of Theresa May's red lines. I think it's unlikely. But I'd be alright with it.
Here's an interesting report that contradicts a Remain argument that our top universities will struggle to attract the brightest and best students and researchers:
Oxford and Cambridge sitting on a 21 billion golden egg
Money talks, and with that sort of brass in the bank, they could build world class facilities and pay high salaries to lure in the best of the best.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Here's an interesting report that contradicts a Remain argument that our top universities will struggle to attract the brightest and best students and researchers:
Oxford and Cambridge sitting on a 21 billion golden egg
Money talks, and with that sort of brass in the bank, they could build world class facilities and pay high salaries to lure in the best of the best.
The vast majority of research doesn't happen at Oxford and Cambridge however. There are certain universities that will never struggle not just here but also in the US (Stamford, Harvard, MIT etc). They have all have a certain reputation, which means that the wealthy will spend a lot to get their children there. You only have to look at the the student backgrounds to see this. As such they both tend to have wealthy benefactors that mean that they get a regular source of income other than through traditional funding streams (and they can charge foreign students much more for that privilege). This is completely the opposite for pretty much every other university in the UK which are vastly more reliant on research grants, the general student population, and so forth (and lets not forget that both Oxford and Cambridge also compete for these).
Effectively what you are advocating is too elite universities and damn the rest which would only further compound societies issues where the wealthy elite continue to remain at the top and leaving the rest to effectively do their bidding. The impacts on the universities is already happening. Foreign student numbers are decreasing (which is where a lot of universities get significant funding from to support other activities) which is having major impacts as to what the universities are able to achieve.
If you advocate a few elite universities benefiting the wealthy then by all means be happy with what is going on.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Here's an interesting report that contradicts a Remain argument that our top universities will struggle to attract the brightest and best students and researchers:
Oxford and Cambridge sitting on a 21 billion golden egg
Money talks, and with that sort of brass in the bank, they could build world class facilities and pay high salaries to lure in the best of the best.
What? That's demented, you're assuming that this isn't something they're doing already. Do you seriously think they're just sitting with that money and no idea what to use it for, and then suddenly "BREXIT! Let us spend our cash to build an academic utopia like we couldn't before because REASONS"
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, it is notable that lots of highly respected UK universities AREN'T Oxbridge
Details, details! Who cares! Headlines aRe enough, Just thump your chest harder, sing ru Britannia louder and be glad those damned foreigners aren't coming here any more.
greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy
"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are"
Oh, and better yet, from the article this £21 billion is in "estates, endowments, investments and other assets – including artworks and antiques"
So, if you sell all the buildings that the university is actually IN, bin the pension pots and flog all the décor you'll get scads of money to build some tin sheds to put your new staff in, plus some new build accommodation blocks. You'll be able to pay your academics really well until the money runs out, but can't offer them a pension.
Also worth noting that, to the best of my knowledge, Oxford and Cambridge are in the same pension scheme as quite a lot of other UK universities. So you're dropping their pensions as well.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Here's an interesting report that contradicts a Remain argument that our top universities will struggle to attract the brightest and best students and researchers:
Oxford and Cambridge sitting on a 21 billion golden egg
Fresh calls have been made for a systematic review of the UK’s visa application process for foreign researchers and their families after one of the University of Oxford’s “brightest” new recruits was forced to leave her post and return to China.
Fengying Liu, a postdoctoral researcher in pathology, was recruited to Oxford’s Sir William Dunn School of Pathology in October last year. She acquired the Tier 2 visa necessary to take up the role and work in the UK, but a separate dependency visa for her 22-month-old daughter was later rejected by the Home Office.
Citing the inflexibility of the British visa process and the unaffordable cost of a resubmission, Dr Liu said that she had no choice but to leave her new role and “give up hope” of working in the UK as a scientist.
Her departure has been seen as another manifestation of the perceived hostility of the UK’s immigration regime to foreign researchers and has fuelled elite universities’ fears about their ability to recruit and retain the best international talent post-Brexit.
Ulrike Gruneberg, a Medical Research Council senior research fellow and principal investigator of the laboratory that recruited Dr Liu, told Times Higher Education that she already faced “extreme problems” hiring suitable candidates, which she attributed in part to the “complicated and flawed” nature of the UK immigration system.
The struggle to recruit has intensified since the referendum vote to leave the European Union, Dr Gruneberg added. “[We] don’t get any applications from the EU now and there are hardly any qualified British candidates for postdoc positions, so it becomes much more important for us to be able to employ people from outside the EU.
“My concern is that British science is just going to collapse.”
Dr Liu had applied for the Oxford research role after completing her PhD at Heidelberg University in Germany, where she had been living with her husband, another Chinese scientist, and baby. On being offered the position funded by the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council, she moved to the UK without her husband and daughter, having made the decision to apply for their visas separately to make the costs more manageable.
However, a technicality in UK immigration law that requires parents to seek visas together with their children meant that the separate application for Dr Liu’s baby was refused.
“The reason my daughter got rejected is because we did not apply as a family,” Dr Liu told THE. “I did not understand this at the time. It was also too expensive – about €1,400 [£1,226] per person for the visa application alone.”
Employer-sponsored UK visas cost up to £3,220 including an immigration health surcharge of £400 per year – doubled from £200 in April. Given that accompanying family members require their own visas too, the cost of moving to the UK even for a short period of time can add up to several thousand pounds for a family.
While Oxford was able to reimburse Dr Liu’s own visa costs, the policy does not extend to dependants.
The fact that Dr Liu did not completely understand the visa application rules came as “some failing on Oxford’s part”, Dr Gruneberg admitted. “I felt awful. As an employer, you hire someone in good faith and then you essentially make them go through hell,” she said.
“[Dr Liu] was our brightest candidate – the only possible candidate. But, looking at the Home Office website myself, it’s difficult even for someone with a PhD who speaks English very well to understand. On a human level, it’s terrible.”
Dr Gruneberg wrote to her laboratory’s funding bodies, university leaders and her local MP, but while much sympathy was expressed there was “nothing to be done to change the situation”.
Dr Liu was advised to reapply for her husband and daughter’s visas. But at a potential further cost of £4,400 for the two of them without incorporating travel costs, she opted to terminate her contract at Oxford early and seek work in China.
“I don’t know how they can think each person can pay so much even for a baby. We were just PhD students who had just graduated [and we] did not have savings to fall back on,” Dr Liu said. “Something needs to change. It’s a fundamental problem for young researchers coming to the UK.”
While universities could do more to assist recruits in their visa processes, Dr Liu suggested that funding bodies responsible for sponsoring postdoctoral places could help to pick up the bill. “They need to give more consideration not only to funding the cost of the project but the visa, too,” she said.
The debate over visa limits in the UK comes amid growing concern about the impact of migration restrictions in many of the leading higher education nations. The US is reportedly considering limiting the flow of Chinese researchers into the country, amid concerns about espionage and the flow of sensitive data, while Australian universities are caught in the crossfire of increasing tensions with China and are also contending with visa reforms.
Speaking earlier this month, Louise Richardson, Oxford’s vice-chancellor, said that British institutions including her own could struggle even further to attract talent once the UK leaves the EU.
“Personally, I think we are all in trouble in England, Ireland and the rest of the EU over Brexit,” she said. “We know [our elite status] rests on the excellence of research from people who [come] from abroad…It is painful for many of us as committed internationalists, citizens of the world, to find our country turning inward.”
A Home Office spokeswoman said that international collaboration was “essential” to the success of the UK’s universities and that the government therefore “welcome[d] academics visiting the UK”.
The struggle to recruit has intensified since the referendum vote to leave the European Union, Dr Gruneberg added. “[We] don’t get any applications from the EU now and there are hardly any qualified British candidates for postdoc positions, so it becomes much more important for us to be able to employ people from outside the EU.
“My concern is that British science is just going to collapse.”
joy.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
