Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Oh, Eyjio, I agree with you, Mortal Wounds have been give in AoS very freely, and they should restrain from that. With the new Kharadron Book having 0 Mortal Wound outpot (I think), I think they have realised that.
I was just talking about the changing competitive enviroment, it was not an argument in favour of Mortal Wounds.

I really wonder if Fearless and And They Shall Know No Fear are even going to be a thing in 8th. It stands to reason to reason that Fearless would be an Auto-pass for Morale, but it should probably be hard to get. As for ATSKNF, I could see it being a bonus to Morale tests. Marines shouldn't be running from fights.

Eyjio wrote:

I get your point, but did you like the previous editions' versions of morale where it was 95% pointless? Units falling back usually turned into a game of babysitting enemy units as they walked off the board even when it was actually relevant.

It wasn't perfect, but it had its moments. The particularly pertinent one was with forcing a unit to fall back off an objective. With 8th, you'll be forced to actually wipe them out instead.

And that's my main worry with 8th edition - all indications so far are that instead of focusing on gameplay, they're just focusing on killing things as quickly as possible. And that doesn't make for an interesting game. An interesting game is one in which your units can do things.


An alternative to the 'shepherd the unit off the board' approach would have been something more akin to 2nd edition, where instead of falling back to the table edge, units fell back towards the nearest cover. Once in cover, they could attempt to rally.

In the grand scheme of things, this change is only really going to affect hordes ...

Indeed... making my Orks less effective than they already are is another reason to dislike these rules.

Morale looks bad for hordes, but there could be many other things in their favour which we're unaware of yet.

Stupid rules being balanced out by other stuff doesn't make the stupid rules any less stupid.

v0iddrgn wrote:
God, I hope they use Mob Rule for an actual benefit against Morale this time!

Is Mob rule or something similar in AOS? That could give us a good idea.

Mob rule in AoS is a bonus to hit rolls in assault. The more orruks in the unit the better it is.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Mob rule in AoS is a bonus to hit rolls in assault. The more orruks in the unit the better it is.

Rats too.

giant rats x 30 or something hits on 3s and gains 3 attacks each or something like that

vs 10 which give you hits on 5s 1 attack.

Im 99% sure there will be a lot of ways to mitigate battle shock.

what im curious about is how will certain psycic powers work against things like vehicles. pretty sure there will be one that will force a target to take a test. normally vehicles cant take it except when in a squadron. (oh god ld6 sentinel squad loses a guy and rolls a 6 on the test would lose a whole sentinel lol)

I wonder how rules like Pinning will work

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I wonder how rules like Pinning will work

Maybe something like "if you take casualties from Morale this turn, you also can't shoot in the Shooting phase next turn."

 insaniak wrote:
Here at Games Workshop, we understand that your favourite part of playing Warhammer 40000 is finishing your games quickly so that you can be not playing Warhammer 40000 anymore. And so we've changed the morale rules to allow you to pack your models back into their case faster than ever before!

Ha!

It is starting to feel like that!

A lot of game companies seem to feel that SPEED must trump, well, everything?

I'm OK with maintaining a certain level of complexity and crunch and sacrifice a few extra minutes of my day - which I've already allotted to hobby time!

 axisofentropy wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Here at Games Workshop, we understand that your favourite part of playing Warhammer 40000 is finishing your games quickly so that you can be not playing Warhammer 40000 anymore. And so we've changed the morale rules to allow you to pack your models back into their case faster than ever before!

I laughed

but short games means we can play best 2 out of 3, or different opponents

Agreed! There were only a handful of changes I really wanted out of the new edition and streamlined rules and shorter game length were at the top of my list!

 Alpharius wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Here at Games Workshop, we understand that your favourite part of playing Warhammer 40000 is finishing your games quickly so that you can be not playing Warhammer 40000 anymore. And so we've changed the morale rules to allow you to pack your models back into their case faster than ever before!

Ha!

It is starting to feel like that!

A lot of game companies seem to feel that SPEED must trump, well, everything?

I'm OK with maintaining a certain level of complexity and crunch and sacrifice a few extra minutes of my day - which I've already allotted to hobby time!

We have to accept it. Fast games are the bread and butter today. The money is in X-wings, in Movile games, etc, etc... not in games that took 4 hours to play and need to read books and books to understand how it works.

Not saying that those have no place. Sure they have, they are the ones I play most. But just like Videogames, one need to go to "indie" devs to encounter more niche games that appeal to their tastes. GW has entered the Mainstream wargame/boardgame market, and seeing how his making them money, I think the day of old are not coming back(Just compare SW:A with Necromunda. Is a streamlined version, to play a mini campaing in one day)

To people worried about Orks, you should check out the Rampaging Destruction rules that Destruction armies get.

Basically at the start of the turn before movement you get a free D6" of movement to any unit within 6" of a hero. There is a "warlord trait" that gives you +2 to that roll, then you get your regular movement and then run. Also there are a decent amount of units that can run and still charge.

My Beastclaw Raiders (ogres on mounts) big monsters get all this and have move 12", giving them a turn 1 charge range of 27" on average, 16" minimum, and 38" max. Oh yeah and my warlord has a ability that gives reroll charge range to any unit within 14" from a MC base!

There is a good chance Orks/Tyranids will have access to some if not all of these rules, plus transports for Orks.

All I'm saying is we really need to wait till release to judge effectiveness of armies. You need the whole picture.

That distance is, uh, WM/H-levels of alarming. That doesn't really inspire confidence if the answer to CC not being strong enough is to make CC units run further than machine guns shoot.

 Forcast wrote:
To people worried about Orks, you should check out the Rampaging Destruction rules that Destruction armies get.

Basically at the start of the turn before movement you get a free D6" of movement to any unit within 6" of a hero. There is a "warlord trait" that gives you +2 to that roll, then you get your regular movement and then run. Also there are a decent amount of units that can run and still charge.

My Beastclaw Raiders (ogres on mounts) big monsters get all this and have move 12", giving them a turn 1 charge range of 27" on average, 16" minimum, and 38" max. Oh yeah and my warlord has a ability that gives reroll charge range to any unit within 14" from a MC base!

There is a good chance Orks/Tyranids will have access to some if not all of these rules, plus transports for Orks.

All I'm saying is we really need to wait till release to judge effectiveness of armies. You need the whole picture.

Absolutely agree. We should all SPECIAL RULES wait until we SPECIAL RULES get the rest of the SPECIAL RULES revealed before we SPECIAL RULES form an opinion on SPECIAL RULES how the game will SPECIAL RULES work.



Again, special rules negating a stupid core rule doesn't change the fact that the stupid rule is stupid. If the existence of those special rules makes the stupid core rule irrelevant, why even have the core rule in the first place?

 Forcast wrote:
To people worried about Orks, you should check out the Rampaging Destruction rules that Destruction armies get.

Basically at the start of the turn before movement you get a free D6" of movement to any unit within 6" of a hero. There is a "warlord trait" that gives you +2 to that roll, then you get your regular movement and then run. Also there are a decent amount of units that can run and still charge.

My Beastclaw Raiders (ogres on mounts) big monsters get all this and have move 12", giving them a turn 1 charge range of 27" on average, 16" minimum, and 38" max. Oh yeah and my warlord has a ability that gives reroll charge range to any unit within 14" from a MC base!

There is a good chance Orks/Tyranids will have access to some if not all of these rules, plus transports for Orks.

All I'm saying is we really need to wait till release to judge effectiveness of armies. You need the whole picture.

Yeah somehow I doubt the answer to the game being fun is 1st turn charges.. Just makes AoS look even worse imo.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Here at Games Workshop, we understand that your favourite part of playing Warhammer 40000 is finishing your games quickly so that you can be not playing Warhammer 40000 anymore. And so we've changed the morale rules to allow you to pack your models back into their case faster than ever before!

Personally I perfer to be playing the game rather than reading books, arguing over definition of rules or moving retreating models backwards slightly only to regroup them.

Agreed.

...not to mention being able to play a game without 6 inches of books and badly layered rules which are filled with unique bespoke rules with bespoke exceptions to one another. Which is why I haven't played in years, and am excitedly looking forward to playing again. Games should be able to be fast enough to avoid being bogged down with bs, and if you finish too fast, you can always play another game.

Personally I'm liking everything I see. Even the 2D6 charge range, because we don't know what other rules changes are coming with them, nor do we know... well... anything save for wild speculation at this point, beyond the rules teases and examples we've been given over the last week and a few days now.

I'm going to give the full rules a fair shake and try them out over the course of a month, playing as many games as I reasonably can with both of my armies. (Blood Angels & Guard for those following along.)

I'm excited to see the game streamlined. That's been my biggest complaint with 7th edition personally speaking, well that, and the discrepancy with power levels of several codexes. It's hard to explain to someone new that the army the love the look of (Tyranids) isn't the best when it comes to competitiveness compared to a list like Necrons.

I'm the primary tournament organizer at my local game store that has recently come under new ownership. We have had a LOT of new players enter the game recently, much to my excitement I'll note. Our current escalation league has ~30 people playing in it, of which I would estimate 12 to 15 of those players are brand new to the game. They're all having a blast and are enjoying putting together their models, learning how to paint, figuring out how to play and learning the game. The biggest complaint I get from most all of them is the confusion and sheer volume of special rules and how those rules interact.

Having a more concise rules set will make my life a lot easier when it comes to teaching our new players.

On a personal note, I'm excited to see the armies all working from the same base line from a balance perspective. I want to see how my armies change, and are adapted to the new edition. I want to start working on more models soon, and building a few new squads to celebrate the new edition. I'm looking forward to seeing how units that are personal favorites of mine will work.

An example being Sanguinary Guard. I LOVE these models. They're some of my favorite models in the Blood Angels lineup, but I almost never run them as I prefer Death Company on the tabletop comparatively. I want to see what kind of carnage Sanguinary Guard will be able to inflict. Will their Angelus Boltguns operate like pistols in melee? How will their Encarmine blades and axes work? Will Death Masks cause some effect? That's just one unit, and I've got a codex worth of questions to have answered.

All those squabbling over rules and spreading dissent and argument, how about we all take a breath, and remember why we got into this game, and the universe of the 41st millennium, in the first place. Could it suck? Sure, it could, but let's wait and see before we make any decisions about how good or bad it's going to be. I for one remain cautiously optimistic, but that's just this man's opinion.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I really wonder if Fearless and And They Shall Know No Fear are even going to be a thing in 8th. It stands to reason to reason that Fearless would be an Auto-pass for Morale, but it should probably be hard to get. As for ATSKNF, I could see it being a bonus to Morale tests. Marines shouldn't be running from fights.

This is a really good question. Though, the morale reveal did say that almost all units would feel the affects of morale.

Then, take into account that though there are many ways to manipulate battleshock tests in AoS (both positive and negative), to my knowledge, there are no armies that just straight-up say 'we don't take battleshock tests, ever'. Even brave AoS Sigmarines aren't immune to battleshock.

Given that, I would assume that things like mob rule, fearless, stubborn, ATSKNF, would just buffer or limit the effects of morale. But bottom line is that, though marines shouldn't be running from fights, I really think they will. I expect that immunity to morale is going to be rather limited.

Maybe not in large numbers, and maybe not often. But I don't think they're going to be 100% immune for free. Same for nids and the like.

Least I damned well hope so.

Yeah, I have to admit being a bit salty with over all the 7th edition books I have being invalidated, but I really am liking all the 8th edition changes so far.

Fingers crossed for Gensetealer Cult's Ambush tables surviving the edition change.

 Galas wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Here at Games Workshop, we understand that your favourite part of playing Warhammer 40000 is finishing your games quickly so that you can be not playing Warhammer 40000 anymore. And so we've changed the morale rules to allow you to pack your models back into their case faster than ever before!

Ha!

It is starting to feel like that!

A lot of game companies seem to feel that SPEED must trump, well, everything?

I'm OK with maintaining a certain level of complexity and crunch and sacrifice a few extra minutes of my day - which I've already allotted to hobby time!

We have to accept it. Fast games are the bread and butter today. The money is in X-wings, in Movile games, etc, etc... not in games that took 4 hours to play and need to read books and books to understand how it works.

Not saying that those have no place. Sure they have, they are the ones I play most. But just like Videogames, one need to go to "indie" devs to encounter more niche games that appeal to their tastes. GW has entered the Mainstream wargame/boardgame market, and seeing how his making them money, I think the day of old are not coming back(Just compare SW:A with Necromunda. Is a streamlined version, to play a mini campaing in one day)

You're almost certainly right there in that this is where "The Market" is going - no matter what!

Still, if it makes 40K playable again, I guess that's OK.

Otherwise, I guess I'll stick with 30K?

 insaniak wrote:

 Forcast wrote:
To people worried about Orks, you should check out the Rampaging Destruction rules that Destruction armies get.

Basically at the start of the turn before movement you get a free D6" of movement to any unit within 6" of a hero. There is a "warlord trait" that gives you +2 to that roll, then you get your regular movement and then run. Also there are a decent amount of units that can run and still charge.

My Beastclaw Raiders (ogres on mounts) big monsters get all this and have move 12", giving them a turn 1 charge range of 27" on average, 16" minimum, and 38" max. Oh yeah and my warlord has a ability that gives reroll charge range to any unit within 14" from a MC base!

There is a good chance Orks/Tyranids will have access to some if not all of these rules, plus transports for Orks.

All I'm saying is we really need to wait till release to judge effectiveness of armies. You need the whole picture.

Absolutely agree. We should all SPECIAL RULES wait until we SPECIAL RULES get the rest of the SPECIAL RULES revealed before we SPECIAL RULES form an opinion on SPECIAL RULES how the game will SPECIAL RULES work.



Again, special rules negating a stupid core rule doesn't change the fact that the stupid rule is stupid. If the existence of those special rules makes the stupid core rule irrelevant, why even have the core rule in the first place?

They aren't special rules if everyone had them. They are just rules. Units have individual rules now, is not that big of a deal really. Obviously, if you like a strong core ruleset like WHFB was, this is a totally different game desing phylosophy.

How do you guys in AoS manage the BS phase?

I was sitting here thinking with my ork army i can have some turns where i loose models from like 8+ units! we now need to track exactly how many models were lost per unit over three phases of a turn till the end!

counters i guess?

I think we are getting hung up on the core rules, they'v said its 12 pages so its gonna be blanket easy systems and catchall... its the unit special rules that are gonna make a lot of the doom and gloom go away

 Latro_ wrote:
How do you guys in AoS manage the BS phase?

I was sitting here thinking with my ork army i can have some turns where i loose models from like 8+ units! we now need to track exactly how many models were lost per unit over three phases of a turn till the end!

counters i guess?

i usually just keep dice next to the unit. or have models knocked over next to it until the end of the turn if it isnt that many.

 Latro_ wrote:
How do you guys in AoS manage the BS phase?

I was sitting here thinking with my ork army i can have some turns where i loose models from like 8+ units! we now need to track exactly how many models were lost per unit over three phases of a turn till the end!

counters i guess?

I think we are getting hung up on the core rules, they'v said its 12 pages so its gonna be blanket easy systems and catchall... its the unit special rules that are gonna make a lot of the doom and gloom go away

It's not a massive issue due to a lot of ways to negate battle shock, a lot of units have to few model compared to leadership and the bigger units or at least the vulnerable ones can be buffed. But back on point, I use miniature dice, we use red dice for wounds and light blue dice for casualties. Easy to keep track that way.

I was thinking about ATSKNF. It could be something as simple as " this unit never counts as rolling more than D6+3 for a moral test" It still limits casualties without the full benefits of always passing.

 Alpharius wrote:

You're almost certainly right there in that this is where "The Market" is going - no matter what!

Still, if it makes 40K playable again, I guess that's OK.

Otherwise, I guess I'll stick with 30K?

Well, y'know, until they transfer that over, too. ;P

How will battle shock affect chaos units, because not all chaos legions have dark apostles, or are we all back in the same old rut again. If so traitor legions didn't last long. We're loosing depth of game play here.

" but it seems to me that the system in general was developed by GW and then tested by these competitive groups (who better than those that routinely break the game, have large groups of potential testers etc.). The similarities to AOS speak to as much."

GW could have asked "Build us a 40k game that rocks"
Instead they said" Were changing 40k to be like AOS, polish up the and get rid of the rough spots for us. Now I don't blame Frontline gaming they had to work with what they had.

There's always a chance that it remains distinct - in fact, I have heard rumors to that effect...

 Jambles wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
This is not a straight AOS copypaste. Having different profiles in one unit is not a problem, and it absolutely has to happen with some units (for example, does someone really believe that a Kastelan robot and a Datasmith would not have separate profiles?)

If they go the AoS route, I could easily see Kastelan Robots being one unit and Datasmiths being a second unit. The Datasmiths would grant a benefit to the Kastelans if within X"... similar to how Seraphon Skink Herders give benefits to Salamanders, but you really take them separately.

Wow, really? So, you could take an army of just Salamanders? Might be time to re-visit AoS

I hope this isn't the case for 40k. The implications are strange and unwieldy. What would they do, take the Nob part of the Ork Boyz sprue out of the box? Take the Runtherder out of the Grotz box? What about armies like Thousand Sons where their unit leaders are psykers?

What nonsense, why would they split the boxes? They currently sell those tri character packs, they sell necron warriors and scarabs in the same box, gaunts and rippers too and in aos grifhounds with characters. It's a non issue. We don't know how unit composing is dealt with yet and anyway in aos units still have leaders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I was thinking about ATSKNF. It could be something as simple as " this unit never counts as rolling more than D6+3 for a moral test" It still limits casualties without the full benefits of always passing.

when I did home brew aos rules for 40k to get my gf playing 40k again we made ATSKNF stop negative modifiers to bravery and grant a flat save against battleshock loses. Worked fine. But we did also consider using a forced retreat mechanic where you either took casualties as normal and fight on or fallback using the retreat rules and miss out on stuff in the next turn. Either could be used imo. But it's probably something different. It does make me laugh tho as a lot of the changes I worked into my home brew have happened to the real rules right down to the dropping initiative stat and including move stats.

The morale phase shall give rise to the age of the MSU! Anyways I think it's worth remembering that stats aren't capped at 10, so hopefully that makes morale still do something but not completely useless. Also I hope it doesn't make Tau shooting even more jacked up than it already is... Also I am a bit confused by the fight phase thing about taking turns activating fights... The combat phase article was very confusing to me.