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skarsol wrote:

 davou wrote:

skarsol wrote:
Hurm...

"If your army is built using Formations right now, you’re going to be fine. In their place are a dozen new game-wide Detachments that are available to all factions."

I wait eagerly to see how they're going to make a generic Battle Forged layout that lets me replicate what the Infernal Tetrad allows (ie: 5 Demon Princes in 1850).

That seems to be possible using JUST whats been spoiled today, did you look?

Based on the examples, to get 5 HQ it would require 6 troops choices, 3 elite, 3 fast attack, and 3 heavy support. That's not going to fit in 1850 unless point values are all kinds of crazy.

I will be very shocked if there wont be some All HQ, all Fast or All Heavy support FOCs...

Also, they could always just say "go unbound" for the army of your dreams. If all you miss out on is Command Points why not.

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:


Nuking as in completely removing from the game like they did with formations. GW oblosly wouldn't do that to something like a wraithknight.

I think you and i have completely different ideas of what nuking means.

They are completely redoing the game.

it makes no sense to bring something in from basically a whole another game as is

and for all we know formations will be in but in a completely different shape and form.

My whole argument is about them not bringing formations as is, but rather fixing them for 8th.

They are talking 14 and we've already seen 3 of them. There are more factions in 40k than this, so basically glorified FOCs, maybe one or two xenos/chaos/imperium specific. That's a huge downgrade from what was already in 40k and only needed, not gonna lie, sometimes significant improvements, but still.

Faction specific ones would more likely be:
Guard: Infantry Blob, All the Tanks Ever
Sisters: Lol, you get one if you're lucky.
Marines: Pick a flavor, everyone one of these get at LEAST one. Maybe two. Except the UM based chapters who will likely just follow the FOC as usual.
Chaos: Based on a comment from 40k FB it looks like each legion will have one, we can probably expect a general one for Renegades and at least 4 for Daemons (1 for each god). Maybe a Traitor Guard one if GW finally gives some love to the Spiky Guard.
Mechanicus: Their current formations will likely be carried over as options. So Skitarii, Beep Boop servitors and robots, and then you can run generic FOC for a combined army.
Tyranids: Something swarmy and something GSC-y
Inquisition: Probably just one, if they don't get restricted to the generic FOCs.
Tau: Regular and Farsight Flavors
Eldar: One for each of their flavors (Lawful Good, Chaotic Evil, Clown and Goth)
Orks: I'd expect one for these guys, likely based around the one they have.
Knights: Just one FOC here.

Mind you, this is just speculation, but it's not like we can't expect something to about this level to properly let us run our armies with some flavor bonuses.

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:
It's not about the fact whether you can play or not. Of course you can play, I fully expect GW to have at least that covered. You will totally be able to get by in 8th.
The problem lies in the fact that if in 7th you usually had a nice variety of options if you wanted something really different with your models or try something new now you won't have that at all. Sure, some of those options were broken, some useless but it only begged the question to rebalance them, not straight up remove.

So what variety is in free bonuses? Are you attached to FREE BONUSES or combination of units? Combination of units you can likely still get. Just not FREE BONUZES!

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sisters: Lol, you get one if you're lucky.

Sounds about right lol.

But seriously not seeing any fortifications on the FOC spoiled so far tells me that at least one of the 14 foc will be defender which will require at least 1 fort and make heavy support compulsory. id bet my hat on that.

tneva82 wrote:
So what variety is in free bonuses? Are you attached to FREE BONUSES or combination of units? Combination of units you can likely still get. Just not FREE BONUZES!

Well, for an example: I currently have a few gimmicky theme armies brought about by 7th's list building freedom. To use the most extreme, I have an all-dreadnought list where my only tax is a single drop pod, and I was taking some pods for deployment anyhow.

Strictly speaking, If I can't still play a pure, 100% dreadnoughts in pods list anymore, that "Your army is still viable" statement is a lie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sisters: Lol, you get one if you're lucky.

Sounds about right lol.

But seriously not seeing any fortifications on the FOC spoiled so far tells me that at least one of the 14 foc will be defender which will require at least 1 fort and make heavy support compulsory. id bet my hat on that.

I'd lay money on fortifications and lords of war being outside the force organisation charts and under the broader umberella of your entire army, given they aren't in the massive super-FOC.

changemod wrote:
Strictly speaking, If I can't still play a pure, 100% dreadnoughts in pods list anymore, that "Your army is still viable" statement is a lie.

Well we have no evidence so far you can't so...Again sounds more like he is just pissed he doesn't get free bonuses rather than any lost variety. Frankly this system looks like allowing MORE variety. Just less free rules.

changemod wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So what variety is in free bonuses? Are you attached to FREE BONUSES or combination of units? Combination of units you can likely still get. Just not FREE BONUZES!

Well, for an example: I currently have a few gimmicky theme armies brought about by 7th's list building freedom. To use the most extreme, I have an all-dreadnought list where my only tax is a single drop pod, and I was taking some pods for deployment anyhow.

Strictly speaking, If I can't still play a pure, 100% dreadnoughts in pods list anymore, that "Your army is still viable" statement is a lie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sisters: Lol, you get one if you're lucky.

Sounds about right lol.

But seriously not seeing any fortifications on the FOC spoiled so far tells me that at least one of the 14 foc will be defender which will require at least 1 fort and make heavy support compulsory. id bet my hat on that.

I'd lay money on fortifications and lords of war being outside the force organisation charts and under the broader umberella of your entire army, given they aren't in the massive super-FOC.

They aren't in the super-large one, but it doesn't mean they can't be in one of the other 11 FOCs. There may even be ones that are just "Fortification" and "Lord of War" by themselves you take as an attached detachment to your army.

changemod wrote:
I'd lay money on fortifications and lords of war being outside the force organisation charts and under the broader umberella of your entire army, given they aren't in the massive super-FOC.

Or they are in their own detachments that give less or even 0 command points.

tneva82 wrote:

changemod wrote:
Strictly speaking, If I can't still play a pure, 100% dreadnoughts in pods list anymore, that "Your army is still viable" statement is a lie.

Well we have no evidence so far you can't so...Again sounds more like he is just pissed he doesn't get free bonuses rather than any lost variety. Frankly this system looks like allowing MORE variety. Just less free rules.

Less free rules but the same army builds sounds good to me! Less gak, more flavor.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:

Nothing you've mentioned couldn't be fixed with a rewrite and a proper restriction as a requirement for you having a formation. Formations consisting of formations I can agree with, but just removing those would fix that problem.

The issue is that there is no good way to appropriately cost many if not most of these things.

How are you going to balance those bonuses? Especially in formations that dont have fixed freebies or unit counts? How would you appropriately cost something like a War Convocation with no Gets Hot and synergizing with free plasma and wargear across multiple units and BS enhancing abilities to boot? How would you cost something like Aspect Warriors getting Bs5 or Ws5 with no fixed unit types or sizes? Is BS5 something that should be easily available for the entire duration of a game to something like Fire Dragons in the first place?

If bonuses of certain types are warranted, why not just build it as a fundamental unit upgrade? Why add the extra layer of Formations on top?

Tone down the buffs? Limit it to specific units anyway? Apply debuffs to other unit's stats? Limit the upgrades or increase the cost and make them mandatory? Those are just the ones that I came up off the top of my head in just a couple of minutes - there are a ton of ways to fix even the most outrageous stuff without gutting the whole thin.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Also, I do not belive that more playstyle variety is something unnecessary for a game to have.

The issue is that they didnt add playstylr variety, we got different armies than we did before, but the variety amongst them wasnt any better. Go to any event and cookie cutter would reign just as hard, or harder, than in previous editions.

I mean...how many non Decurion Necron armies have you seen of late? I havent seen a single one on a table in over two years.

Again, it only grows from lack of proper balance for specific formations.

 kronk wrote:

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:


There are several times more units in the game than formations. Each with their own special rules, wargear and so on. Many of them broken too.
Even still GW decided to rebalance the whole thing and not just nuke everything, since people are not particularly fond of their models suddenely becoming invalid.
Yes, making a good game is hard. Balancing is hard. It doesn't mean we should excuse developers for not doing so.

Models will not become invalid. Their first FAQ said so: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000-your-questions-answeredgw-homepage-post-2/

Erm, ok. I was saying exactly that.

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:

It's not about the fact whether you can play or not. Of course you can play, I fully expect GW to have at least that covered. You will totally be able to get by in 8th.
The problem lies in the fact that if in 7th you usually had a nice variety of options if you wanted something really different with your models or try something new now you won't have that at all. Sure, some of those options were broken, some useless but it only begged the question to rebalance them, not straight up remove.

What is wrong with you?

You can take the exact same formation in CADs. With a tax, yes, but you can just run those models in the middle and get them killed off, then you have exactly what you had before.

WITHOUT THE GAK.

What is wrong with you?

changemod wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sisters: Lol, you get one if you're lucky.

Sounds about right lol.

But seriously not seeing any fortifications on the FOC spoiled so far tells me that at least one of the 14 foc will be defender which will require at least 1 fort and make heavy support compulsory. id bet my hat on that.

I'd lay money on fortifications and lords of war being outside the force organisation charts and under the broader umberella of your entire army, given they aren't in the massive super-FOC.

I dunno 12-14 FOCs in the base book sounds like a LOT of options. and 3 of them are so far generic. LOW is going to be interesting.

Maybe I missed something, isn't the battle forged business just a torny/command point thing? You can play matched with anything that hits the right points, you just don't get bonuses. Or at least that how I'd read thing so far.

 Desubot wrote:

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:


Nuking as in completely removing from the game like they did with formations. GW oblosly wouldn't do that to something like a wraithknight.

I think you and i have completely different ideas of what nuking means.

They are completely redoing the game.

it makes no sense to bring something in from basically a whole another game as is

and for all we know formations will be in but in a completely different shape and form.

My whole argument is about them not bringing formations as is, but rather fixing them for 8th.

They are talking 14 and we've already seen 3 of them. There are more factions in 40k than this, so basically glorified FOCs, maybe one or two xenos/chaos/imperium specific. That's a huge downgrade from what was already in 40k and only needed, not gonna lie, sometimes significant improvements, but still.

All we have are speculations. but its probably only 14 for the base rules probably specific things for general play. anywhere from kill teams to apoc sized games. attack and defend that add fortifications to FOC. very much 100% sure that they will add faction specific ones for all the armies. like a FOC designed for a drop pod army. or one that is nothing but foot soldiers for guards.

If they start gradually adding faction-specific formations thery would be just going the same route as 7th only starting the same thing again from scratch, even though they had a huge base of content to work with. How much sense does that make?

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:

If they start gradually adding faction-specific formations thery would be just going the same route as 7th only starting the same thing again from scratch, even though they had a huge base of content to work with. How much sense does that make?

It makes sense if the base content doesn't mesh well with the new stats. The Fluff will definitely remain but the effects will more than likely be different.

deleted. My dumbness

krazynadechukr wrote:
Am I understanding this right? If I want to take a flyer, I must first build a Brigade Detachment before I get to the next whatever detachment level allows a flyer?

For example, to make the brigade, if I am a new player, building his army. I need 3hq, 6 troops, 3 elite. 3 fast, 3 heavy...That's $800+ in minis, that's about 120+ miniatures! (no vehicles yet, add 10 rhinos & 3 drop pods brings this to $1285!)

Now, the next level most likely adds an hq, troop, elite, fast, heavy, and grants me access to a flyer....

Does this assumption of mine sound right?

you can get fliers from a patrol detachment. meaning so far, the minimum is 1 hp 1 troop. then you can get up to 2 fliers.

I wouldn't be opposed to more of what they did with traitor legions. Taking a basic unit like a chaos marine and giving him wildly different rules based on which legion he's part of would be a great way to add more variety to armies like orks and dark eldar and it wouldn't require special detachments or formations.

 Desubot wrote:

krazynadechukr wrote:
Am I understanding this right? If I want to take a flyer, I must first build a Brigade Detachment before I get to the next whatever detachment level allows a flyer?

For example, to make the brigade, if I am a new player, building his army. I need 3hq, 6 troops, 3 elite. 3 fast, 3 heavy...That's $800+ in minis, that's about 120+ miniatures! (no vehicles yet, add 10 rhinos & 3 drop pods brings this to $1285!)

Now, the next level most likely adds an hq, troop, elite, fast, heavy, and grants me access to a flyer....

Does this assumption of mine sound right?

you can get fliers from a patrol detachment. meaning so far, the minimum is 1 hp 1 troop. then you can get up to 2 fliers.

Ah, okay. I got it.

krazynadechukr wrote:
Am I understanding this right? If I want to take a flyer, I must first build a Brigade Detachment before I get to the next whatever detachment level allows a flyer?

For example, to make the brigade, if I am a new player, building his army. I need 3hq, 6 troops, 3 elite. 3 fast, 3 heavy...That's $800+ in minis, that's about 120+ miniatures! (no vehicles yet, add 10 rhinos & 3 drop pods brings this to $1285!)

Now, the next level most likely adds an hq, troop, elite, fast, heavy, and grants me access to a flyer....

Does this assumption of mine sound right?

Red are the required ones, the patrol level(smallest) allows for up to 2 filers with one HQ and one troop choice.

krazynadechukr wrote:
Am I understanding this right? If I want to take a flyer, I must first build a Brigade Detachment before I get to the next whatever detachment level allows a flyer?

For example, to make the brigade, if I am a new player, building his army. I need 3hq, 6 troops, 3 elite. 3 fast, 3 heavy...That's $800+ in minis, that's about 120+ miniatures! (no vehicles yet, add 10 rhinos & 3 drop pods brings this to $1285!)

Now, the next level most likely adds an hq, troop, elite, fast, heavy, and grants me access to a flyer....

Does this assumption of mine sound right?

You can take up to 2 flyers in the partol detachment, so all you'd need is 1 HQ and 1 Troop in order to field one or even two flyers.

krazynadechukr wrote:
Am I understanding this right? If I want to take a flyer, I must first build a Brigade Detachment before I get to the next whatever detachment level allows a flyer?

For example, to make the brigade, if I am a new player, building his army. I need 3hq, 6 troops, 3 elite. 3 fast, 3 heavy...That's $800+ in minis, that's about 120+ miniatures! (no vehicles yet, add 10 rhinos & 3 drop pods brings this to $1285!)

Now, the next level most likely adds an hq, troop, elite, fast, heavy, and grants me access to a flyer....

Does this assumption of mine sound right?

No. You can take whatever detachment you want. A patrol detachment allows 2 Flyers.

krazynadechukr wrote:
Am I understanding this right? If I want to take a flyer, I must first build a Brigade Detachment before I get to the next whatever detachment level allows a flyer?

OR you could take patrol that has same 0-2 flyer as brigade

edit: SLOOOOOOW!

But curious flyers are so static in those 3. I would have expected like 0-1, 0-2 and 0-3.

 Desubot wrote:

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:

If they start gradually adding faction-specific formations thery would be just going the same route as 7th only starting the same thing again from scratch, even though they had a huge base of content to work with. How much sense does that make?

It makes sense if the base content doesn't mesh well with the new stats. The Fluff will definitely remain but the effects will more than likely be different.

But you can literally take any existing formation and completely change it's rules. Why not just do that?

Free bonuses are great as long as EVERYONE has access to the same bonuses. That was the problem with Formations, not everyone got access to the same or even similar free bonuses.

Something I liked about Formations when done right was when they had certain fluffy "tax" units. Like the Vyper unit for the Windrider formation. That is the only thing i'll really miss about formations.

Having a wide variety of Core detachments that everyone can take is welcome....as long as it is limited in Matched Play.
1-2 detachments is more than enough. And really only 1 per Faction now that there are such big detachments to fit in all the stuff you want.

I do like the Fight rules where the incredible fighters hit on lower rolls.

I think I'd have to play a game or two to really decide on entering back in though. Seems like a lot to take in even if it is simpler.

krazynadechukr wrote:
Am I understanding this right? If I want to take a flyer, I must first build a Brigade Detachment before I get to the next whatever detachment level allows a flyer?

For example, to make the brigade, if I am a new player, building his army. I need 3hq, 6 troops, 3 elite. 3 fast, 3 heavy...That's $800+ in minis, that's about 120+ miniatures! (no vehicles yet, add 10 rhinos & 3 drop pods brings this to $1285!)

Now, the next level most likely adds an hq, troop, elite, fast, heavy, and grants me access to a flyer....

Does this assumption of mine sound right?

I don't think you're understanding this right. We've only seen 3 options. Presumably one of the other 9 or more options has some flyers in it WITHOUT all the stuff that's in the Brigade Detachment.

I could imagine something like a "Aerial Strike Detachment" with 1 HQ and 1 Troops (to act as the on ground spotter) and 1-3 Flyers. Just making that up as an example.

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:
But you can literally take any existing formation and completely change it's rules. Why not just do that?

Well basically they did it. They just changed free bonuses as no bonuses. So guess you really are just after free bonus rules.

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:

If they start gradually adding faction-specific formations thery would be just going the same route as 7th only starting the same thing again from scratch, even though they had a huge base of content to work with. How much sense does that make?

It makes sense if the base content doesn't mesh well with the new stats. The Fluff will definitely remain but the effects will more than likely be different.

But you can literally take any existing formation and completely change it's rules. Why not just do that?

Who says they wont do that for some of them. why do you need everything back exactly the same way as before.

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:


Tone down the buffs? Limit it to specific units anyway? Apply debuffs to other unit's stats? Limit the upgrades or increase the cost and make them mandatory? Those are just the ones that I came up off the top of my head in just a couple of minutes - there are a ton of ways to fix even the most outrageous stuff without gutting the whole thin.

And we come back to the question, why do we need Formations for any of these?

Adding in debuffs and the like just adds more complexity and yet another thing to balance, and will feed further minmaxing.

Everything else can either be done (and done more appropriately) at the unit level, or just isn't worth the effort of keeping, rebalancing, and updating the old formations given that units (and thus the formations they exist within) may be updated fairly frequently.

There just is noo good reason for formations from a game design standpoint for any of this. Formations make sense as a short term method to boost sales with overpowered rules. Aside from that, everything they do can be done at the unit level or through FOC swaps and the like without the extra added layer of complexity.

Again, it only grows from lack of proper balance for specific formations.

in other words...the ones people actually used...