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Yonasu wrote:
If there is a lone guy in the middle of a field, why cant anything shoot on him? The fricken primarch, easily identifiable even without future eye gear, standing right there in front of you and you cant do anything about it since theres an imperial guard with a pea shooter behind you. "Better swing this baneblade around guys, that primarch has a character tag!"

We aren't talking about guy in the middle of field. Obviously he should be targetable. I'm talking about guy walking among other guys and how you NEED some sort of shooter protection for IC's as otherwise they would be unrealistically easy to snipe. And frankly being tad closer making targetable isn't all that realistic either.

But I have feeling we are talking about different topic. I'm more about that there needs to be SOME sort of protection but are you refering to this situation which can happen with 8th ed? (and which is pretty stupid)

...X....D...............Y

X is enemy unit, D is you, Y is enemy character. You can't shoot at the character because X is closer.

This is what you mean? If yes then yes that IS stupid. Hopefully in practice doesn't play out that often.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kestral wrote:
It does look like there will be some weirdness in getting your characters into combat with their squads. If the squad charges and fails, you have to move them forward the rolled distance, right? Now your IC has do decide between lagging behind and making their own assault (sucking overwatch?) alone.

Where it is stated they move even with failed charge?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

I always prefer refinement over replacement, and that's how my mindset works.

I can respect that opinion and still disagree with it in this case. I've always been the advocate/driver for change at work. I have 20 years of that as my background. Sometimes you can get by with small changes, and sometimes you need to sweep the table clear and start fresh.

I believe that 7th edition was a bloated mess in terms of rules, formations, war-zone splat books with new rules for X, codecies, supplements for codecies, and weirdo rules in limited edition box sets.

To play a game as a Chaos player with a handful of Daemons, you could need 2 codecies and 3 suppliments, in addition to your Stronghold Assault book for the Void Shield Generator and the War-Zone Dumb-feth-Istavaan. Wait, that formation was updated in Dumb-feth-Istavaan II. Nuh-uh! Yeah-Huh! and so forth.

Give 7th edition a clean death and let's being in the new edition. Start fresh. Release a yearly General's Handbook to fix the feth ups that WILL happen to keep it balanced. Let's roll.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Yonasu wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Yonasu wrote:
Exalted sorcerers on disc, standing in the open shooting left and right, completely invulnerable since theres some rhinos and cultists scattered in other places of the board.

"So i'll shoot my riptide on your sorcerer", "Nuhuu that rhino behind him must be killed first".

Because deep tactics? I like playing games with some semblance of immersion with the same universe im in, the one where you can make decisions on what general direction to shoot.

If the Rhino is behind him the Sorceror can get shot, as the Sorceror would be the closer target.

Its almost like you are just using hyperbole and complaining before we have the actual rules. Or are complaining without reading the article.

Why would i mean that the rhino is behind the sorcerer? Hyperbole much?

Because that is exactly what you wrote?

Nuhuu that rhino behind him must be killed first".

Wow, this is worse out of context than main stream media...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Yonasu wrote:
If there is a lone guy in the middle of a field, why cant anything shoot on him? The fricken primarch, easily identifiable even without future eye gear, standing right there in front of you and you cant do anything about it since theres an imperial guard with a pea shooter behind you. "Better swing this baneblade around guys, that primarch has a character tag!"

We aren't talking about guy in the middle of field. Obviously he should be targetable. I'm talking about guy walking among other guys and how you NEED some sort of shooter protection for IC's as otherwise they would be unrealistically easy to snipe. And frankly being tad closer making targetable isn't all that realistic either.

But I have feeling we are talking about different topic. I'm more about that there needs to be SOME sort of protection but are you refering to this situation which can happen with 8th ed? (and which is pretty stupid)

...X....D...............Y

X is enemy unit, D is you, Y is enemy character. You can't shoot at the character because X is closer.

This is what you mean? If yes then yes that IS stupid. Hopefully in practice doesn't play out that often.

Yes sadly that is what the current state is. You know there will be drop pods plopping down just so guilliman can advance uncontested. They even mock people posting on facebook asking this question...

No, dig UP Yonasu!

In other news, there are some bargains to be had in eBay right now, so get searching

tneva82 wrote:

Yonasu wrote:
Exalted sorcerers on disc, standing in the open shooting left and right, completely invulnerable since theres some rhinos and cultists scattered in other places of the board.

"So i'll shoot my riptide on your sorcerer", "Nuhuu that rhino behind him must be killed first".

Because deep tactics? I like playing games with some semblance of immersion with the same universe im in, the one where you can make decisions on what general direction to shoot.

IC can't join rhino so your point is moot.

It's totally unrealistic that units can freely pin point characters. That's only possible because players have god view and units do what you are told without random. In real life unit shoots at charging terminators he wouldn't be able to pinpoint captain among them.

How bad is your eyesight? You're telling me you can't pinpoint some guy who's 4 meters taller than the rest of the guys he's surrounded himself with?

If you meant a Rhino that somehow got behind a Riptide, than your grammar sucks, and what you said is still wrong.

Yonasu wrote:


Wow, this is worse out of context than main stream media...

Check your snark. You did a poor job explaining your point. Their confusion is valid.

 nintura wrote:
How bad is your eyesight? You're telling me you can't pinpoint some guy who's 4 meters taller than the rest of the guys he's surrounded himself with?

Last time I checked terminator captain isn't 4 meters taller than the terminators. Ability to pinpoint him from long distances in all the smoke and cloud is...well optimistic.



That grey knight librarian isn't exactly towering hulk among terminators...And can you tell are there any characters among squad they are facing off?

 kronk wrote:
Release a yearly General's Handbook to fix the feth ups that WILL happen to keep it balanced.

And this is the part that I can't agree with.

I don't trust GW to get this bit right. insaniak gave the example of Lucy holding the football, and that's how I see it with GW and 8th Ed. It's all smiles and promises and buoyant but ultimately useless "focus" articles right now, but let's be real here: This is their 8th attempt at 40K. After what happened before why should we trust them to get it right this time? Because they're more savvy at Internet PR this time around?

Or perhaps Lucy and the football isn't a good metaphor. Maybe the scorpion and the turtle is better.

To be fair to GW, there is NO realistic way for a lone 4 m tall dude in gold armor who rules a galaxy (and thus is target #1) to survive what amounts to a massive close range fire fight in the open. "Realistically" unless he moves really, really fast, he'd just get a lascannon to the head. I like realism, but you have to balance it against cool (to some) models.

tneva82 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
How bad is your eyesight? You're telling me you can't pinpoint some guy who's 4 meters taller than the rest of the guys he's surrounded himself with?

Last time I checked terminator captain isn't 4 meters taller than the terminators. Ability to pinpoint him from long distances in all the smoke and cloud is...well optimistic.

Spoiler:

That grey knight librarian isn't exactly towering hulk among terminators...And can you tell are there any characters among squad they are facing off?

At no point did I say Terminator captain. And only one model is 4 meters taller than a 4 meter man.

*EDIT> Sorry, not 4 meters. The average marine is 7-8' tall. Robut is twice as tall as they are. That puts RG at 4 meters.

 Crazyterran wrote:
If you meant a Rhino that somehow got behind a Riptide, than your grammar sucks, and what you said is still wrong.

Yes, my grammar sucks. If my subject in that sentence wasnt clear then to you i am sorry, but there was a pretty obvious way to read that.
Tell me how i am wrong please, i would love it if you can target characters even if you have other units closer.

 nintura wrote:
At no point did I say Terminator captain. And only one model is 4 meters taller than a 4 meter man.

And I'm talking about IC's like chaplains, librarians etc. Why bring 4 meter taller guys into the mix then?

ABout the whole argument " 7th ed Psy phase Vs 8th Psy phase" my opinion is to completly get rid of Psy powers, psy phase and Psykers, but thats just the opinion of a Khorne worshipper...

More seriously, 7th Psy phase was nothing enjoyable, fun or even remotly tactical.

it was a hot mess, who tried to look like some kind of "ressources management" and " deep and complex game mechanic", no, definatly not.

WHile its true that if your opponent only had like one or 2 Psykers it was not a real issue, even though it was boring ASF to watch, Vs armies that had a HEAVY Psy factory, it was just a pure nightmare.

Not only did it take ages even for the guy doing it, it was just freakin torture for the guy standing there waiting...

I know its a wargame, but its not an RTS, your ressources management, is called List building an points calculating, if i don't go mine tiberium in the midst of the game, you don't start to micro manage your mental bullets dudes...

The way Psy power worked before that was simple, fast and effective, there was no need for all that "Dices management" i really don't get how they could have play tested it and be like " well okay that works perfectly as intended" and left it like this for 2 Whole freakin editions.

8th Psy powers are coming back as it was before.

tneva82 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
At no point did I say Terminator captain. And only one model is 4 meters taller than a 4 meter man.

And I'm talking about IC's like chaplains, librarians etc. Why bring 4 meter taller guys into the mix then?

Because your post that I quoted had nothing about those in it.

Ok correction, you did say captain. But RG is also a character, and that lumps them all together.

 nintura wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
At no point did I say Terminator captain. And only one model is 4 meters taller than a 4 meter man.

And I'm talking about IC's like chaplains, librarians etc. Why bring 4 meter taller guys into the mix then?

Because your post that I quoted had nothing about those in it.

Ok correction, you did say captain. But RG is also a character, and that lumps them all together.

RG is separate issue. RG isn't you know only character out there...If he doesnt' deserve protection due to the size then he shouldn't be.

But fact is most characters aren't noticably bigger than units they tag along. So if units can target them at will that's rather unrealistic. Models don't have such a god view as player has and soldiers wouldn't be doing exactly what commander wants all the time.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Release a yearly General's Handbook to fix the feth ups that WILL happen to keep it balanced.

And this is the part that I can't agree with.

I don't trust GW to get this bit right. insaniak gave the example of Lucy holding the football, and that's how I see it with GW and 8th Ed. It's all smiles and promises and buoyant but ultimately useless "focus" articles right now, but let's be real here: This is their 8th attempt at 40K. After what happened before why should we trust them to get it right this time? Because they're more savvy at Internet PR this time around?

Or perhaps Lucy and the football isn't a good metaphor. Maybe the scorpion and the turtle is better.

Yup. The same guys, designing to the same brief, in an unchanging world.

8 times.

No point even trying it, presume it's rubbish.

Saves time.

Just remember as well, that if any of these changes suck, and are seen to not work, we only have to potentially put up with them for a year, Huzzah!

tneva82 wrote:

 nintura wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
At no point did I say Terminator captain. And only one model is 4 meters taller than a 4 meter man.

And I'm talking about IC's like chaplains, librarians etc. Why bring 4 meter taller guys into the mix then?

Because your post that I quoted had nothing about those in it.

Ok correction, you did say captain. But RG is also a character, and that lumps them all together.

RG is separate issue. RG isn't you know only character out there...If he doesnt' deserve protection due to the size then he shouldn't be.

But fact is most characters aren't noticably bigger than units they tag along. So if units can target them at will that's rather unrealistic. Models don't have such a god view as player has and soldiers wouldn't be doing exactly what commander wants all the time.

That's right, it's more an issue with RG and it looks to be a design decision to keep him specifically under 10 wounds so that he can hide.

Unless you play Ultramarines, Blood Angels or Iron Hands (or something similarly colored) then Librarians, Techmarines and Chaplains stick out quite a bit.

Vorian wrote:

That's right, it's more an issue with RG and it looks to be a design decision to keep him specifically under 10 wounds so that he can hide.

Warhammer Community wrote:applies to all Characters with a Wounds characteristic of 10 or less, including things that previously might not have benefited from any protection.

Ten or less. It isn't some magic thing that when you hit ten Wounds you suddenly cease getting that protection. 11 is the magic number of when you cease getting protected.

We've been over the whole "Guilliman got 9 Wounds so he can get under the ten wounds for protection!" thing.

Yonasu wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
If you meant a Rhino that somehow got behind a Riptide, than your grammar sucks, and what you said is still wrong.

Yes, my grammar sucks. If my subject in that sentence wasnt clear then to you i am sorry, but there was a pretty obvious way to read that.
Tell me how i am wrong please, i would love it if you can target characters even if you have other units closer.

Either you're badly explaining this or you don't understand the article. The article made it very clear that a character can't be targeted if there's a closer enemy target, clearly infering that if the character is the closest target he is free game. In your example you very clearly stated that the Rhino was behind the Sorcerer, which would make the Sorcerer the closest target and a valid option for the Riptide.

If that is not what you meant no one was ever remotely going to understand that since you actually wrote out your post pretty clearly, leaving no room for interpretation. If that was what you meant, then clearly you didn't understand the rule as presented in the article.

 nintura wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
How bad is your eyesight? You're telling me you can't pinpoint some guy who's 4 meters taller than the rest of the guys he's surrounded himself with?

Last time I checked terminator captain isn't 4 meters taller than the terminators. Ability to pinpoint him from long distances in all the smoke and cloud is...well optimistic.

Spoiler:

That grey knight librarian isn't exactly towering hulk among terminators...And can you tell are there any characters among squad they are facing off?

At no point did I say Terminator captain. And only one model is 4 meters taller than a 4 meter man.

*EDIT> Sorry, not 4 meters. The average marine is 7-8' tall. Robut is twice as tall as they are. That puts RG at 4 meters.

I think you have a different perception of a primarch's height than other people do. This is what I see when I google the height of primarchs. I think you're being misled by the base Guilliman is standing on.

The only Primarch to be 4m tall is Magnus because he can make himself larger or smaller as he needs to. See: Thousand Sons.

That drawing is nice and all, but the Guilliman model is bigger than that.

 Rippy wrote:
Just remember as well, that if any of these changes suck, and are seen to not work, we only have to potentially put up with them for a year, Huzzah!

I hope not. I'd rather put up with a mediocre edition for 3+ years than to have to keep relearning the rule set every 12 months. I have a hard enough time purging all the junk in my head from the last 3 editions.
I am excited that 8th will be quite different from the last few editions as it will be easier for me to forget the stuff that came before and really immerse myself in the rules.
If GW constantly changes the rules (or Emprah forbid creates a "living ruleset") than I won't be able to keep up and enjoy playing.

The last year was bad enough with a new book coming out every month with tons of new stuff I had to at least be aware of. It is not fun to play when you have almost no knowledge of what to expect.
At one point I owned 90% of every codex GW made. I knew my enemy. It was the best time I've had in 40k. Changing the rules so frequently or adding loads of new stuff every week is just not fun for me and I don't think I am alone in that view point.

-

 Slayer le boucher wrote:


WHile its true that if your opponent only had like one or 2 Psykers it was not a real issue, even though it was boring ASF to watch, Vs armies that had a HEAVY Psy factory, it was just a pure nightmare.

Not only did it take ages even for the guy doing it, it was just freakin torture for the guy standing there waiting...

To tackle this specific point - just wait until you fight an army of GK or Tzeentch without any psykers to counter them, and let them roll absurd amount of dice anyway... but just rolling two at a time. and if you don't have a psyker of your own within 24" (Poor Tau) you can't even fight back because, as read on the article itself, "Enemy psykers will then have a chance to block these powers if they are within 24″"... what if you don't have psykers? You just bend over and take it like a good chum? I'm thinking Khorne might have something against it (giftss that make your champion count as a psyker for the purpose of dispelling powers and what not) but... what if you don't have a psyker?

Ohhhhhh fun!

 JohnnyHell wrote:
That drawing is nice and all, but the Guilliman model is bigger than that.

The model is also standing on some significantly tall rocks. That's what I think is throwing people off. It's a nice decorative effect to make him stand out more on the table, but it's not actually part of his height.

tneva82 wrote:

But I have feeling we are talking about different topic. I'm more about that there needs to be SOME sort of protection but are you refering to this situation which can happen with 8th ed? (and which is pretty stupid)

...X....D...............Y

X is enemy unit, D is you, Y is enemy character. You can't shoot at the character because X is closer.

This is what you mean? If yes then yes that IS stupid. Hopefully in practice doesn't play out that often.

Hmm. Good point. I have to agree that this is stupid.

 kronk wrote:


Give 7th edition a clean death and let's being in the new edition. Start fresh. Release a yearly General's Handbook to fix the feth ups that WILL happen to keep it balanced. Let's roll.

Agreed.
It's odd, though, because the common complaint for years has been that each edition has just been another revision to third (making 7th edition more like 3.4 edition). Now that we're getting a genuinely new edition, the common complaint is that it isn't just another revision to third.
I'm not saying the people making the first complaint are the same people making the second complaint, just that the most vocal complaint regarding editions has shifted.