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Glad I left a few meganobz with kombi-skorchas.

No reason not to shoot both guns since flamers auto-hit anyway.

Battle cannon now seems to be a decent TAC weapon, which I think is appropriate. In fluff it was always depicted as most common Russ weapon.

This also totally boosts Vanilla Termies assuming the new storm bolter is moderately comparable!

Hopefully this will help them become relevant again!

Also, regarding the blacks knights, unfortunately this also means we can't reroll those one for Get's Hot

Double edged sword I suppose.

 kestral wrote:
Well, Meltagun solves EVERYTHING except hordes now. Meltavets will kill those characters, that landraider, unit in cover, whatever. While I like meltaguns in general, they could have used a nerf more than a buff.

Twin linking going to double shots is bad. It was a solid mechanic that kept things reasonable before and had distinct uses. If they wanted to mess around they could have increased their damage to reflect the double bullets.

"Yer gonna have to keep track of twenty wound models, but wether or not you used yer combi weapon was too much book keeping, so we had to ditch that."

Does battlecannon auto hit? Doesn't seem to, unlike flamers.

depends on the cost of melta now doesn't it.

If they are following the AOS model, then points are going to change. In WHFB a dwarf trooper decked out might cost 12 points each. In AOS a Fyreslayer might cost 30 points or more. Army size will drop by half. So yes, you will be able to make an OP unit, but at the expense of not having much else. In a game where holding objectives is important, having just one big unit might lose you the game because you can't be everywhere at once.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
This also totally boosts Vanilla Termies assuming the new storm bolter is moderately comparable!

Hopefully this will help them become relevant again!

Also, regarding the blacks knights, unfortunately this also means we can't reroll those one for Get's Hot

Double edged sword I suppose.

A true Son of the Lion would not think twice about risking a Gets Hot or two to take down more Fal-- HERETIC scum!

The Battle Cannon is going to be a lot better than before from what I'm seeing.

1) They can't scatter and miss completely against single targets like monstrous creatures, which is very common now.

2) Instead of a maximum of one wound on monstrous creatures and vehicles, they can potentially do 18.

3) The effectiveness against infantry is not really that much worse. In 7th, you would hit 5 models on 25mm bases, assuming 2" coherency. Assuming Guardsmen stats, this would be 5 hits*3,33 wounds = 3 dead guardsmen. In 8th, this would be 3,5 hits*2,33 wounds = 2 dead guardsmen.
And that's the worst case scenario.

Consider 32mm bases in 7th, you would do even less hits.

Consider elite infantry on 40mm bases, like Terminators, now you're hitting 3 (?) models, doing 2 wounds = 1,33 dead Terminator after saves.

In 8th, you'd be hitting the terminators 3,5 times, doing 2,33 wounds, halved to 1,165 after 4+ saves, then upped to 2,33 wounds again after the D3 damage, killing one terminator (since they have 2 wounds now IIRC).

Unless my math is off (might be, I'm in a bit of a hurry), this is a huge buff to the Battle Cannon since it's only slightly less effective against most infantry but a LOT more effective against vehicles and monstrous creatures.

EDIT: Yes, I'm stupid, I missed the To Hit roll Please someone competent do the math...

 Kirasu wrote:

Doubt it will kill Terminators or Marines in the open as efficiently though, you know what they say about versatility

That it sucks in 40k and you get wiped out by units that do one thing really well ? :p

Tell that to S6/S7 spam weapons that rule supreme in 7th edition :p.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I like how everyone is saying the good old Russ tank got terrible with the new random hits with it's battle cannon.
I'm sure that it used to be ordinance. It's now just a heavy weapon on the new article (assuming the battle cannon wasn't heavy before). That means no rule for scatter of its not ordinance? I think the Russ just became more reliable and tougher...

The russ can also take a hull mounted LC and twin HB sponsons.

That means a russ is chucking out the following
1d6 STR 8, AP -2. D3 wounds
1 STR 9, AP -2, D6 wounds
6 STR 5, AP-1 1 wound shots

This is on a T8, 3+ save, 12 wound platform. It's not an 'overwhelming amount of firepower' level of shooting ... but it's not bad.

That's assuming a Leman Russ (or any vehicle) can fire all it's weapons - have we actually had confirmation of that?

I dunno, the battle cannon just seems bad. The godhammer lascannons are now actually better, on average, if leman russes still hit on 4+ (BS3). Just do some maths with me:

VS MEQ:
4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 5+ save, 3.5 shots, damage irrelevant = 3.5(1/2)(5/6)(2/3)=35/36 wounds; you expect to kill slightly less than one marine every time you fire.

VS TEQ:
4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 4+ save, 3.5 shots, 2 av. damage = 7(1/2)(5/6)(1/2)=35/24 wounds; you expect to kill slightly less than one Terminator every time you fire.

VS New Dreadnought:
4+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 5+ save, 3.5 shots, 2 av. damage = 7(1/2)(2/3)(2/3)=14/9 (=1.55 rec); you expect to do around 1.6 wounds to a Dread.

I don't know about you, but none of these numbers impress me. You barely dent a Tactical squad, you don't dent terminators and you might make a Dreadnought laugh at you. The best thing that Leman Russes seem to be able to do now is be a gun boat - their normal shooting seems woeful.

I just realized, a scout squad with sniper rifles and a single model carrying a missile launcher with flakk is gonna be amazing in this eddition. Particularly in cover with cloaks!

You can pick off characters or pin large squads with the snipers, and shoot at planes or tanks with the ML!

Hope my orks get some interesting toys for assault on part with what my marines are getting for shooting.

 Mymearan wrote:
The Battle Cannon is going to be a lot better than before from what I'm seeing.

1) They can't scatter and miss completely (very common now against single targets like monstrous creatures)

Yeah, they can. There's no word on them auto hitting. You gotta roll to hit on those D6 hits... Unless I misread. Did I misread?

I fear we're seeing where the quicker games are coming from - enormous vehicle firepower.

 kestral wrote:
Well, Meltagun solves EVERYTHING except hordes now. Meltavets will kill those characters, that landraider, unit in cover, whatever. While I like meltaguns in general, they could have used a nerf more than a buff.

Twin linking going to double shots is bad. It was a solid mechanic that kept things reasonable before and had distinct uses. If they wanted to mess around they could have increased their damage to reflect the double bullets.

"Yer gonna have to keep track of twenty wound models, but wether or not you used yer combi weapon was too much book keeping, so we had to ditch that."

Does battlecannon auto hit? Doesn't seem to, unlike flamers.

Depends on how tough some vehicles are. What if a Land Raider is toughness 9/10 and 18 wounds and a 2+ save, add in the potential for cover and its not so simple. I think smoke launchers add to the save now and so we might see units with like -1 save(always fail on a 1) situations like we used to see in fantasy. I really like it because they made it so things are less all or nothing like they were before.

It will be interesting to see what upgrades do now, I could see upgrades adding to saves or wounds.

Dozer Blade: +1 armor save when fired on from the front
Extra Armor: +1 wound

But it looks like large blast is going to be d6 shots, so small blast is probably d3. So given what we know we can probably guesstimate most of the profiles. It will be interesting to see the rules for salvo.

 Mymearan wrote:

1) They can't scatter and miss completely against single targets like monstrous creatures, which is very common now.

That's not my read of it. If it's D6 shots, you still need to roll to hit, meaning misses are possible- just not as probable if you roll decently on the number of shots.

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
The Battle Cannon is going to be a lot better than before from what I'm seeing.

1) They can't scatter and miss completely (very common now against single targets like monstrous creatures)

Yeah, they can. There's no word on them auto hitting. You gotta roll to hit on those D6 hits... Unless I misread. Did I misread?

Formerly Wu wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

1) They can't scatter and miss completely against single targets like monstrous creatures, which is very common now.

That's not my read of it. If it's D6 shots, you still need to roll to hit, meaning misses are possible- just not as probable if you roll decently on the number of shots.

Well I meant exactly what I said - they can't scatter and miss completely, since they can't scatter. They CAN miss completely, but that is a whole heck of a lot less likely. On average you'll be hitting 3,5 times.

edit: Oh wait, I'm stupid, I actuyally missed the to hit roll. DOH

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

1) They can't scatter and miss completely against single targets like monstrous creatures, which is very common now.

That's not my read of it. If it's D6 shots, you still need to roll to hit, meaning misses are possible- just not as probable if you roll decently on the number of shots.

This is actually very important because it brings down the effectiveness of the BC even further. A clarification would be necessary.

 kestral wrote:

Does battlecannon auto hit? Doesn't seem to, unlike flamers.

The Flamer profile only says "Assault D6" as well, yet we still know that those are auto-hits from the article. Unless Flamers are the only Assault weapons now (which seems doubtful), I would be surprised if the battlecannon wasn't dishing out autohits as it wouldn't make sense otherwise (tank shells don't magically split into D6 smaller projectiles that then don't even deal explosive damage because they have to hit their targets like a bullet first).

>When you play Tau and these news on Twin-linked hit you

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

The Flamer profile only says "Assault D6" as well, yet we still know that those are auto-hits from the article. Unless Flamers are the only Assault weapons now (which seems doubtful), I would be surprised if the battlecannon wasn't dishing out autohits as it wouldn't make sense otherwise (tank shells don't magically split into D6 smaller projectiles).

The Flamer included its auto-hit rule on the profile; the battle cannon didn't. I think it's unlikely.

I like the new TL profile. My gatling Taurox Prime will be Heavy 20 S4 AP- with a additional 8 S4 AP-2. That little transport will be pushing out 28 shots!!! If Militarum Tempsetus orders stay the same we can order twin linked on our men. This could get interesting.

Yeah, I was assuming it would be auto-hits since that's effectively how the template change seemed to work. Otherwise, if you still needed to roll to hit the BC would definitely need something along the lines of 2D3 shots or D6+3 shots. Orks would be hosed with our BS2.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 kestral wrote:

Does battlecannon auto hit? Doesn't seem to, unlike flamers.

The Flamer profile only says "Assault D6" as well, yet we still know that those are auto-hits from the article. Unless Flamers are the only Assault weapons now (which seems doubtful), I would be surprised if the battlecannon wasn't dishing out autohits as it wouldn't make sense otherwise (tank shells don't magically split into D6 smaller projectiles).

Battle cannon doesnt have any special abilities so it still needs to roll to hit, however it has also lost ordinance so there is that.

We will have to see how many points things cost

Well that's obviously impossible because nothing scatters anymore... But they can miss completely.

Now I am curious about the odds of actually pulling out a 18 wound shot with BS 3 against, say... RG. (No I don't have a beef with him it's just about the biggest thing we have at the moment to mathhammer against)

 JohnU wrote:
Glad I left a few meganobz with kombi-skorchas.

No reason not to shoot both guns since flamers auto-hit anyway.

I too am pretty excited about meganobz with skorchas.

Orks are gonna have fun
bikers - 6 s5 shots each XD

0.44 more hits per biker
1.6ish more hits with 5 firing lol

ok maybe not that great

I'm not worried about CC yet, but it does look like we're going to have a ton of bullets flying.

The pieces we're missing are:

- Transports and charging
- The cost of these weapons
- Character buffs to charge rolls
- The number of attacks for bp/ccw

I think it is becoming a bit apparent how games are going to run about 90 minutes now*...


*Yes, points are still the X factor here too!

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

The Flamer profile only says "Assault D6" as well, yet we still know that those are auto-hits from the article. Unless Flamers are the only Assault weapons now (which seems doubtful), I would be surprised if the battlecannon wasn't dishing out autohits as it wouldn't make sense otherwise (tank shells don't magically split into D6 smaller projectiles).

The Flamer included its auto-hit rule on the profile; the battle cannon didn't. I think it's unlikely.

Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm not worried about CC yet, but it does look like we're going to have a ton of bullets flying.

The pieces we're missing are:

- Transports and charging
- The cost of these weapons
- Character buffs to charge rolls
- The number of attacks for bp/ccw

I don't think there's any reason to worry yet.

Yes there's a lot of boosts to shooting, but the thing I think people are missing is that with the adjustment to AP there are a lot more units that are going to stand up a lot better to shooting.

Just my opinion, we'll see how it goes.

Land Raider Crusaders just became absolutely ferocious. Each sponson has 3 TL bolters (presumably, this translates from 3 TL shots at 24"/6 shots at 12", to 6 at 24", and 12 shots at 12". Per sponson. Not to mention the TL assault cannon.


Stormravens with TL Hurricane Bolters, TL assault cannons, TL Heavy Bolters... that's a horrendous number of shots.


Dakkajets with 3 TL Supa-Shootas are just absurd. Assuming the retain the same 3 shot per weapon, this just doubled them to 18shots each. I'm gonna take a chance and predict they lose the Waaagh! doubling shots rule, otherwise that's 36 shots from 1 model.