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2017/05/12 19:46:07
Subject: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
Galas wrote: People is looking with to much detail the Power Level, talking about "balance". It isn't meant to be totally balanced, is a rough estimation for open and narrative play.
They have said that they have give the Power Level with the unit fully upgraded in mind, so thats it.
Well nothingwis intended as totally balanced.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2017/05/12 19:51:09
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
They mentioned in the article running Ambush with Power, so it's possible some mission types won't be balanced around points but power.
Power levels are just less granular points. Same thing, one is just jess balanced but quicker to use. If anything they wil' be more balanced with points but require more pre game calculations
Yup. Here is a FoC, you get 200 Pl have fun!
On a side note... They think 1000 Pl is a 90 minute game... If a Tactical Squad is 5 Pl (1 Pl per marine effectively)... How much are Tanks!
2017/05/12 19:54:29
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
I'm not looking forward to my first argument over whether we're using "power level" or the proper points system when selecting armies.
I can see it now, the local Tau player insisting that power level is "close enough, I swear!" as he pulls out 14 Riptides with every possible upgrade, the cheesy git.
Points system for me, please. I don't really see any reason to have an "approximate" points system when the precise points system exists. It's like installing a second speedometer, except this one says you're going "Oh, I dunno, like 50 mph or so I guess," while the proper one tells you the exact speed. Why would you ever bother with less precision when more precision is available? Is the mere seconds of savings on basic arithmetic really worth the inevitable loss of balance?
2017/05/12 19:56:35
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
Grimdakka wrote: I'm not looking forward to my first argument over whether we're using "power level" or the proper points system when selecting armies.
I can see it now, the local Tau player insisting that power level is "close enough, I swear!" as he pulls out 14 Riptides with every possible upgrade, the cheesy git.
Points system for me, please. I don't really see any reason to have an "approximate" points system when the precise points system exists. It's like installing a second speedometer, except this one says you're going "Oh, I dunno, like 50 mph or so I guess," while the proper one tells you the exact speed. Why would you ever bother with less precision when more precision is available? Is the mere seconds of savings on basic arithmetic really worth the inevitable loss of balance?
power levels are more for games with your buddies that are light hearted, fun and more narritive. a "cheesy Tau git" isn't someone they intent for PLs to be for
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2017/05/12 19:57:07
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
Grimdakka wrote: I'm not looking forward to my first argument over whether we're using "power level" or the proper points system when selecting armies.
I can see it now, the local Tau player insisting that power level is "close enough, I swear!" as he pulls out 14 Riptides with every possible upgrade, the cheesy git.
Points system for me, please. I don't really see any reason to have an "approximate" points system when the precise points system exists. It's like installing a second speedometer, except this one says you're going "Oh, I dunno, like 50 mph or so I guess," while the proper one tells you the exact speed. Why would you ever bother with less precision when more precision is available? Is the mere seconds of savings on basic arithmetic really worth the inevitable loss of balance?
Gonna go ahead and say that the power level system isn't intended for someone who goes to a pickup game anticipating an argument over lists
2017/05/12 19:59:22
Subject: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
NinthMusketeer wrote:I read the article and came here to read epic rage over summoning costing full points. I am surprised and somewhat impressed.
You and I have discussed my feelings on AoS summoning ad nauseum, but as much as I dislike this solution to summoning, I don't think I nor anyone else is really surprised.
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
2017/05/12 19:59:27
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
Grimdakka wrote: I'm not looking forward to my first argument over whether we're using "power level" or the proper points system when selecting armies.
I can see it now, the local Tau player insisting that power level is "close enough, I swear!" as he pulls out 14 Riptides with every possible upgrade, the cheesy git.
Points system for me, please. I don't really see any reason to have an "approximate" points system when the precise points system exists. It's like installing a second speedometer, except this one says you're going "Oh, I dunno, like 50 mph or so I guess," while the proper one tells you the exact speed. Why would you ever bother with less precision when more precision is available? Is the mere seconds of savings on basic arithmetic really worth the inevitable loss of balance?
unless those riptides are 300 points a pop... Then he could plop 3 down and lose becuase no objectives while you take a humongous amount or MEQ.
We don't know enough nor will we know how the lack of templates will affect those weapons. Too early to assume still I think.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/12 20:01:25
2017/05/12 20:00:26
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
Albino Squirrel wrote: Now I can kind of see what some people have been saying, about being worried that tournament gamers are helping so much to refine the rules. People always say that a tightly balanced set of tournament friendly rules benefits everyone, including the more narrative gamers. But now I'm thinking that's not really true.
I'm starting to suspect that a lot of the little details that don't make sense are in there for "balance" or tournament purposes. For example, someone probably noticed that the striking scorpions aren't good against space marines. Because most armies have space marines in them, they pointed out that nobody is going to take striking scorpions to a tournament unless they can do something in a game against a space marine army. So they make mandiblasters cause mortal wounds to make them a more attractive choice to the tournament gamer, while not making any sense and breaking a bit of the immersion for some of the more narrative gamers that play the game in order to experience the background on the tabletop.
I like a lot of the major changes to the rules, but whether or not I enjoy the game will probably come down to the missions and all the little details on the individual units. And I'm beginning to worry that they are going to get a lot of the details wrong in their willingness to sacrifice immersion for balance.
+1
I hope you are wrong, but I also have picked up on this when they said orders are automatic for Guard. I know they are trying to streamline but still...
..Why is balance bad again?
Because of that thing I just said. Which you even quoted. Just read the above posts you quoted.
I did.. It just seems so strange because any game of 40k on the tabletop is nowhere near immersive compared to the fluff. Indeed it would be disastrous if they were to come anywhere close given that a space marine can deal with an entire Ork Boy Horde, a terminator should survive being stepped on by a Titan, Kharn managed to slaughter two massive legions down to Warbands, Mugan Ra held off an entire Hive Fleet by himself...
I value Balance over Immersion because at the end of the day, it's still very much a game and that trumps slight bits of immersion.
2017/05/12 20:08:51
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
Points system for me, please. I don't really see any reason to have an "approximate" points system when the precise points system exists. It's like installing a second speedometer, except this one says you're going "Oh, I dunno, like 50 mph or so I guess," while the proper one tells you the exact speed. Why would you ever bother with less precision when more precision is available? Is the mere seconds of savings on basic arithmetic really worth the inevitable loss of balance?
I work in science. I can assure you that there is such a thing as too much precision for the application.
Matched Play is designed to be as balanced as possible, thus the higher precision of points is required. Narrative/Open does not need to be. If you want to play Narrative and it still bothers you, you're free to use points.
They mentioned in the article running Ambush with Power, so it's possible some mission types won't be balanced around points but power.
Narrative missions won't be even. Matched play will be.
You can have 2000 pts vs 1500 just as easily as 10 power level vs 75. It's just 2 point systems. No inheritent difference. One is just more granular.
People have used uneven points for decades. How 8th ed points would be less suited for that?
The difference between the 2 is that one takes up to 15 minutes and a helper program to do properly and the other you can do in less than a minute off the top of your head.
Basically if you didn't print off your list before you left, powerlevel is a godsend.
2017/05/12 20:15:20
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
They mentioned in the article running Ambush with Power, so it's possible some mission types won't be balanced around points but power.
Narrative missions won't be even. Matched play will be.
You can have 2000 pts vs 1500 just as easily as 10 power level vs 75. It's just 2 point systems. No inheritent difference. One is just more granular.
People have used uneven points for decades. How 8th ed points would be less suited for that?
No no. I mean GW will publish missions for Narrative games using power levels and missions for Matched play games. The Matched play missions won't be asymmetrical.
2017/05/12 20:18:09
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
They mentioned in the article running Ambush with Power, so it's possible some mission types won't be balanced around points but power.
Narrative missions won't be even. Matched play will be.
You can have 2000 pts vs 1500 just as easily as 10 power level vs 75. It's just 2 point systems. No inheritent difference. One is just more granular.
People have used uneven points for decades. How 8th ed points would be less suited for that?
The difference between the 2 is that one takes up to 15 minutes and a helper program to do properly and the other you can do in less than a minute off the top of your head.
Basically if you didn't print off your list before you left, powerlevel is a godsend.
It also doesn't prompt the same level of anxiety during the construction and painting phase of army building. If there's an upgrade that I want to build because it looks cool, I don't get stymied by worries that the upgrade isn't points-efficient and uncompetitive. Anything that reduces potential barriers to play a game are great in my book. I've got enough on my plate in life that I don't need extra things to futz with prior to gaming during the brief opportunities I get to do so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/12 20:21:27
2017/05/12 20:18:57
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
I didn't hear about one being scheduled. That said, there is supposed to be a Q&A2(: Heretical Boogaloo) article up sometime before the new edition launches.
2017/05/12 20:22:55
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
power levels are more for games with your buddies that are light hearted, fun and more narritive. a "cheesy Tau git" isn't someone they intent for PLs to be for
I get the intention, I just don't understand why you wouldn't just use the regular points system even in a more light-hearted game.
I work in science. I can assure you that there is such a thing as too much precision for the application.
Matched Play is designed to be as balanced as possible, thus the higher precision of points is required. Narrative/Open does not need to be. If you want to play Narrative and it still bothers you, you're free to use points.
Sure, and I work in computer science, so I understand that precision can be a finnicky thing that sometimes needs to be limited, but we're not talking about significant figures and infinitely repeating decimals here, we're just talking about measuring something accurately vs. measuring something approximately.
A more applicable example might be building a house. When you're measuring your stud placement, do you say they need to be placed "about a foot and a half apart is probably fine," or do you say, "they need to be 16" apart?"
I understand the intention of the power level system, it just seems like it has no business in existing when we already have a much better and more accurate system. Why even use it at all? Again, is the small amount of time saved on arithmetic really worth it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/12 20:23:48
2017/05/12 20:23:15
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
I didn't hear about one being scheduled. That said, there is supposed to be a Q&A2(: Heretical Boogaloo) article up sometime before the new edition launches.
Pete Foley said on Twitter that he and Andy Smillie will be answering questions again, and I assumed that meant live but maybe it will be an article. I thought it was supposed to happen today, but looking at it again it just said to get questions in by Friday and it looks like they're doing the Q&A next week.
YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA!
2017/05/12 20:26:27
Subject: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
I didn't hear about one being scheduled. That said, there is supposed to be a Q&A2(: Heretical Boogaloo) article up sometime before the new edition launches.
Pete Foley said on Twitter that he and Andy Smillie will be answering questions again, and I assumed that meant live but maybe it will be an article. I thought it was supposed to happen today, but looking at it again it just said to get questions in by Friday and it looks like they're doing the Q&A next week.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2017/05/12 20:27:45
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
I didn't hear about one being scheduled. That said, there is supposed to be a Q&A2(: Heretical Boogaloo) article up sometime before the new edition launches.
Pete Foley said on Twitter that he and Andy Smillie will be answering questions again, and I assumed that meant live but maybe it will be an article. I thought it was supposed to happen today, but looking at it again it just said to get questions in by Friday and it looks like they're doing the Q&A next week.
Ah. I haven't been really looking at Twitter recently so I missed that. I'm betting on an article over another live stream even but who knows.
2017/05/12 20:28:07
Subject: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
ClockworkZion wrote: So...are we freaking out over power levels because that's the only news today, or did we forget that they were mentioned in the original Q&A GW did?
Beause it's old hat and all we really learned is where the preverbial ruler that is the Tactical Space Marine sits in the new edition.
It's pretty tame today. It's all we really have to talk about though.
I'm trying to draw out interesting nuggets as best I can!
2017/05/12 20:32:54
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
Sure, and I work in computer science, so I understand that precision can be a finnicky thing that sometimes needs to be limited, but we're not talking about significant figures and infinitely repeating decimals here, we're just talking about measuring something accurately vs. measuring something approximately.
A more applicable example might be building a house. When you're measuring your stud placement, do you say they need to be placed "about a foot and a half apart is probably fine," or do you say, "they need to be 16" apart?"
I understand the intention of the power level system, it just seems like it has no business in existing when we already have a much better and more accurate system. Why even use it at all? Again, is the small amount of time saved on arithmetic really worth it?
Again: Narrative/Open are designed to support unbalanced scenarios, either in army composition, setup, or ingame effects. If you can't put a mathematic point value on that imbalance, then there's not much point in assuring both armies are within a micron of each other competitively, because once the game starts it won't matter. In your analogy, it would be like measuring the exact distance between two beams, but then fudging the height of the cross bar. If you're going to fudge part of it, there's no use in being super-accurate with the rest of it.
I would also argue that the time savings are not as small as you suggest, and that other posts in this thread indicate the same. But YMMV on that.
I'm liking the power level discussion. The idea that the points will be on a separate sheet will be annoying when it comes to list-building (or maybe having it all right there will be better, I don't know?) but I will swallow that because it seems that it will allow them to make points tweaks easily if they need to.
rollawaythestone wrote: I'm liking the power level discussion. The idea that the points will be on a separate sheet will be annoying when it comes to list-building (or maybe having it all right there will be better, I don't know?) but I will swallow that because it seems that it will allow them to make points tweaks easily if they need to.
The way it works in the new Kharadron Overlords book is that points are all on a table at the very end of the book, labeled "Pitched Battle Profiles".
I would expect something like that.
2017/05/12 20:37:04
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Summary - 11th May 17: Datasheet / Eldar focus (all info in OP)
power levels are more for games with your buddies that are light hearted, fun and more narritive. a "cheesy Tau git" isn't someone they intent for PLs to be for
I get the intention, I just don't understand why you wouldn't just use the regular points system even in a more light-hearted game.
I work in science. I can assure you that there is such a thing as too much precision for the application.
Matched Play is designed to be as balanced as possible, thus the higher precision of points is required. Narrative/Open does not need to be. If you want to play Narrative and it still bothers you, you're free to use points.
Sure, and I work in computer science, so I understand that precision can be a finnicky thing that sometimes needs to be limited, but we're not talking about significant figures and infinitely repeating decimals here, we're just talking about measuring something accurately vs. measuring something approximately.
A more applicable example might be building a house. When you're measuring your stud placement, do you say they need to be placed "about a foot and a half apart is probably fine," or do you say, "they need to be 16" apart?"
I understand the intention of the power level system, it just seems like it has no business in existing when we already have a much better and more accurate system. Why even use it at all? Again, is the small amount of time saved on arithmetic really worth it?
To me, the difference between Power Levels and Points is like the difference between cooking and baking. In baking it's real important to use the exact amount in the recipe, or else you're going to end up with a mess. In cooking, you can be a little looser about what you add to the pan and still have the end result taste good.
If you're trying to create the perfect cake of a competitive tournament, you use points. If you're just whipping something up as an experiment for dinner with friends, you can cook with power levels.
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
