40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**Shadow Walker**

Gamgee wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Gamgee wrote:
Since you will find no justice when your just an outdated product line.

So now Marines are shoving in on Sisters territory?

Yep. Oh it will start fine. Maybe... one or two final releases here and there. Then a slowing of updates. Then not replacing models that sell out or need updating ect. It will be a slow one, but inevitable.

At least they had plastic models

**ClockworkZion**

Gamgee wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Gamgee wrote:
Since you will find no justice when your just an outdated product line.

So now Marines are shoving in on Sisters territory?

Yep. Oh it will start fine. Maybe... one or two final releases here and there. Then a slowing of updates. Then not replacing models that sell out or need updating ect. It will be a slow one, but inevitable.

Then it's 20 years later and you're harassing GW on social media on when you're getting new models.....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

stonehorse wrote:
I wonder if GW losing the Chapter House Studios lawsuit all those years ago has played a large part in the creation of these. If they sell them as Primius Marines that is a new name they can trademark and protect.

Adeptus Astartes already has a trademark, so no, this is likely not related.

This is more likely an effort to shake up the status quo and set the Imperium on a bright future going forward before intentionally crashing and burning it worse than it was before.

**Gamgee**

Me? I'm not buying these. I didn't want these. I've been fairly against the idea since first hearing about them. Same with Primarchs. I'm never touching one unless I have to move someone else's during a game.

It feels like even buying my Deathwatch models was a waste of time since I doubt they'll ever get a new model and they are already they aren't even the most elite of the elite anymore. It's definitely a real downer.

**theocracity**

Gamgee wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Gamgee wrote:
Since you will find no justice when your just an outdated product line.

So now Marines are shoving in on Sisters territory?

Yep. Oh it will start fine. Maybe... one or two final releases here and there. Then a slowing of updates. Then not replacing models that sell out or need updating ect. It will be a slow one, but inevitable.

Was there anything that Marines even needed anymore? I feel like with their recent push they've given Marine players basically everything they ever could have asked for in plastic - redone base kits, chapter-specific kits, Deathwatch, flyers, Heresy armor, etc.

And it's not like it's a big deal to print a plastic kit as long as the mold holds out. I feel like classic Marines will still be with us for a long time, even if Primaris Marines are the ones getting the bulk of the story attention and updates.

They may be eventually phased out in the long run, but in the long run we're all gonna die, so....

**Daedalus81**

Gamgee wrote:
I referenced soldier weeks ago when they first started mentioning nu-marines. Also what they aren't telling you is that they are going to focus on making nu-marine models from here on out.

It's only a matter of time until the old are cast off and outdated. If you should find the humans treatment of you deplorable the Tau Empire would be willing to give you the vengeance you seek. Since you will find no justice when your just an outdated product line.

Edit
I don't like them. One bit. From a lore perspective or a model perspective. They are well made, but I'm not much of a marine fan. I wonder how the Deathwatch will think of them.

Spoiler:

The fluff is cast in iron. To remove old space marines we'd have to have another huge event to lays down the regular marine. And even if inevitable that won't happen for a long, long, long time.

**OgreChubbs**

So after reading all the FAQs on the new marines it says.

They get new models soon
New tanks

And chaos will be getting bigger better stuff aswell.

**Smellingsalts**

There are several factors to consider as to why GW made this move. First off, Space Marines are the highest selling army. But most of the 40K community already owns an army. How do we get existing owners of Space Marine armies to buy more? Well we could invent more variations of Landraiders, vehicles, and equipment. That would make some money. Or, we could upscale Space Marines and make all the money! Just you wait. 2 years from now GW will phase out old marines and in their place upscaled new marines and vehicles will dominate the table top. Old marine players will get marine envy and eventually upscale their army or quit playing. While the only marines new players will know will be upscaled. Old marine models will be demoted to online only, and then phased out. This has already happened once (I actually own the old plastic Rhinos and Landraiders, and they are small). If you look to AOS as a guide, you see that at first they released PDF's for all the armies, then as new factions came out many players discovered that the new factions played better than the old, the synergies amongst units were much better. Also, scale creep happened. Look at the Blood Reavers (arguably the new version of Chaos Marauders) compared to the old Marauders. Hardly anyone today would buy old marauders rather than Blood Reavers, and if they wanted to they would have to buy direct online from GW. Ask Brettonian and Tomb King players how feasible it is that GW will phase out old models. Ironically, 10 years from now Forge World will resculpt old marines in their original scale and make a Warhammer 40K pre-Gulliman game to use them in. And charge twice as much for the figs!

**Jambles**

Wonderwolf wrote:
NivlacSupreme wrote:

Three of the types of marine you named are just bodyguards. Not really unjustified.

So random fluff change makes all the difference for Space-Marine-Plus-Unit-No.-524?

Think of them and use them as Guilliman's (or random Chapter Master's) bodyguards in your Space Marine army than.

Problem solved.

GW claimed previously to their detriment that the setting and story of their tabletop minis game doesn't matter. What's the over-under on Age of Sigmar's little shake-up?

That said, this is far from an egregious addition to the fluff. It's not even particularly unique or new in the 40k universe. But to be fair, that was the point of the original post that started this, and it's one I happen to agree with. Yeah, I understand they'd be stupid not to make some new Space Marines when that's apparently their one and only moneymaker - I just wish that it wasn't so.

If most 40k fans truly, truly just wanted a new Space Marines army rather than a new, original faction? Fair enough. For my part, I just want something new that's not a Space Marine?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:
Gamgee wrote:
I referenced soldier weeks ago when they first started mentioning nu-marines. Also what they aren't telling you is that they are going to focus on making nu-marine models from here on out.

It's only a matter of time until the old are cast off and outdated. If you should find the humans treatment of you deplorable the Tau Empire would be willing to give you the vengeance you seek. Since you will find no justice when your just an outdated product line.

Edit
I don't like them. One bit. From a lore perspective or a model perspective. They are well made, but I'm not much of a marine fan. I wonder how the Deathwatch will think of them.

Spoiler:

The fluff is cast in iron. To remove old space marines we'd have to have another huge event to lays down the regular marine. And even if inevitable that won't happen for a long, long, long time.

I'll call it here at about a year after 8th drops before they start talking about how the "remnants" of the old marines have all but died out due to attrition, and the primaris marines become the bog standard.

**the_scotsman**

This might possibly be the single laziest thing GW has done in the decade and a half I've been playing. Not the sleaziest or the money-grubbingest, but in terms of sheer unadulterated lack of effort, this is the Transformers 7: Moon of the Fallen Vengeance Part 2 of model releases.

We're going to make new marines!

So, all-new exciting special weapon options? A bold, interesting new aesthetic? A hideous character flaw? Some....kind of...anything?

Nawp. We're just gonna put 'em out there, and we know you're going to buy them. Because finally, you can have that satisfaction that you've been cruelly denied so long to have your thuper duper tholdiers be 5mm taller than little Jimmy's soldiers. Because it's not fair, his are the pointy bad guys so they shouldn't be allowed to be thuper duper!

**hypnoticeris**

Gamgee wrote:
Me? I'm not buying these. I didn't want these. I've been fairly against the idea since first hearing about them. Same with Primarchs. I'm never touching one unless I have to move someone else's during a game.

It feels like even buying my Deathwatch models was a waste of time since I doubt they'll ever get a new model and they are already they aren't even the most elite of the elite anymore. It's definitely a real downer.

Same case scenario for me. Same feelings also. At least beside the recent Deathwatch I have no other space marines.

**Bulldogging**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Bulldogging wrote:
So this is why Marine bolters became rend -0, the "new, and I hope you didnt spend money on normal marines lately" marines have the correct stat bolters. Excuse me, cawl pattern bolters.

LOL

snark aside, I'd say they have it for balance reasons more than buffinf a new unit who could have just gotten -2 rend bolters if regular bolters were a -1...

Absolutely no snark. When things are obvious and humerus they can be addressed as such. -2 would have been too strong for basic marines and would have required TS to be -3(or even 4). Now marines have true bolters again, er Now the new marines have true bolters again.

I know they need to sell models to stay in business and I have nothing against that. I do, 100%, think they could have done this transition better.

**Gamgee**

Jambles wrote:
Wonderwolf wrote:
NivlacSupreme wrote:

Three of the types of marine you named are just bodyguards. Not really unjustified.

So random fluff change makes all the difference for Space-Marine-Plus-Unit-No.-524?

Think of them and use them as Guilliman's (or random Chapter Master's) bodyguards in your Space Marine army than.

Problem solved.
GW claimed previously to their detriment that the setting and story of their tabletop minis game doesn't matter. What's the over-under on Age of Sigmar's little shake-up?

That said, this is far from an egregious addition to the fluff. It's not even particularly unique or new in the 40k universe. But to be fair, that was the point of the original post that started this, and it's one I happen to agree with. Yeah, I understand they'd be stupid not to make some new Space Marines when that's apparently their one and only moneymaker - I just wish that it wasn't so.

If most 40k fans truly, truly just wanted a new Space Marines army rather than a new, original faction? Fair enough. For my part, I just want something new that's not a Space Marine?

Yeap I am so sick of space marines at this point. Even non-space marines chaos models would be interesting like dark adeptus mechanicus or anything xenos. Next year is probably when they do the new xenos stuff, but it's a long slog through half a year of spezz marines and chaos marines.

I would be down with an updated IG with new weapons of war from Cawl and Robute. Just to show humans can actually do something in the setting anymore except be lorded over by super humans.

**Daedalus81**

Just for fun I did a spot the difference on the old numarine pic.

None of the new models have that drum, but they do share some other features. So either the next kits will have an even better boltgun or someone at GW was trolling (but only a little).

Spoiler:

**Jambles**

the_scotsman wrote:
This might possibly be the single laziest thing GW has done in the decade and a half I've been playing. Not the sleaziest or the money-grubbingest, but in terms of sheer unadulterated lack of effort, this is the Transformers 7: Moon of the Fallen Vengeance Part 2 of model releases.

We're going to make new marines!

So, all-new exciting special weapon options? A bold, interesting new aesthetic? A hideous character flaw? Some....kind of...anything?

Nawp. We're just gonna put 'em out there, and we know you're going to buy them. Because finally, you can have that satisfaction that you've been cruelly denied so long to have your thuper duper tholdiers be 5mm taller than little Jimmy's soldiers. Because it's not fair, his are the pointy bad guys so they shouldn't be allowed to be thuper duper!

Hit the nail on the head here! This is the 'old GW' rearing it's ugly head...

**EmberlordofFire8**

Could be a pre production model ?

**theharrower**

Lord Kragan wrote:
Kijamon wrote:
Models from the waist up are quite nice, from the waist down look like sigmarites and so it's a poor design.

The story hasn't moved far enough along to merit Marines 2.0 and they just seem very shoe horned and forced in. They could have milked this for months and possibly years before unleashing the kit.

Guilliman starts a secret project with Cawl but he needs supplies.

On the way to one place the Orks attack, bigger and better than ever they are led by a giant warboss - is he the new Beast? Could even be Ghazgull with a new cool model but put a new unit of big boys out to support the range.

They head to The Rock for these super secret supplies. They need the Lion's blood? How did they know? Cypher told them? Spooky. Oh no a nid invasion has happened and the Rock is in peril. Lots of new nid stuff.

They head to the Damocles gulf - what's this? mutated tau? New kit for them?

Etc etc and then once you've established how hard they fought for the materials, they get new marines.

Instead we've gone - Fenris damaged, Ultramar damaged - NEW MARINES TO SAVE THE DAY

No offense, but your idea is horrible. Your argument is basically make the narrative spend months/years just for the sake of bringing them, that sounds an appalling concept to me, specially to non-marine players.

I hate to pile on here, but I have to agree. People can't stand the long drawn out weeks until the new edition is dropped. How would they react to some fluff being drawn out for years until models are released? No only that, how many people that play are even into the fluff? A lot of players I know just play the game. They don't follow the larger story.

**stonehorse**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Just for fun I did a spot the difference on the old numarine pic.

None of the new models have that drum, but they do share some other features. So either the next kits will have an even better boltgun or someone at GW was trolling (but only a little).

Spoiler:

The painted model isn't a Primaris Marine, but a current Marine, hence the differences and similarities.

**NivlacSupreme**

Wonderwolf wrote:
NivlacSupreme wrote:

Three of the types of marine you named are just bodyguards. Not really unjustified.

So random fluff change makes all the difference for Space-Marine-Plus-Unit-No.-524?

Think of them and use them as Guilliman's (or random Chapter Master's) bodyguards in your Space Marine army than.

Problem solved.

I for one welcome our Numarine overlords (either doing Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers). Admittedly that statement was confusing.

**ClockworkZion**

Bulldogging wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Bulldogging wrote:
So this is why Marine bolters became rend -0, the "new, and I hope you didnt spend money on normal marines lately" marines have the correct stat bolters. Excuse me, cawl pattern bolters.

LOL

snark aside, I'd say they have it for balance reasons more than buffinf a new unit who could have just gotten -2 rend bolters if regular bolters were a -1...

Absolutely no snark. When things are obvious and humerus they can be addressed as such. -2 would have been too strong for basic marines and would have required TS to be -3(or even 4). Now marines have true bolters again, er Now the new marines have true bolters again.

I know they need to sell models to stay in business and I have nothing against that. I do, 100%, think they could have done this transition better.

You claim this, but frankly I don't see anything that proves this assumption to be correct. Regular Marines are getting cheaper per model, and the new guys will be more expensive meaning smaller armies on the table (especially if you go pure Primaris).

And there is no reason -2 can't be balanced (look at Rubrics), as long as they're points costed correctly.

**Daedalus81**

Jambles wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
This might possibly be the single laziest thing GW has done in the decade and a half I've been playing. Not the sleaziest or the money-grubbingest, but in terms of sheer unadulterated lack of effort, this is the Transformers 7: Moon of the Fallen Vengeance Part 2 of model releases.

We're going to make new marines!

So, all-new exciting special weapon options? A bold, interesting new aesthetic? A hideous character flaw? Some....kind of...anything?

Nawp. We're just gonna put 'em out there, and we know you're going to buy them. Because finally, you can have that satisfaction that you've been cruelly denied so long to have your thuper duper tholdiers be 5mm taller than little Jimmy's soldiers. Because it's not fair, his are the pointy bad guys so they shouldn't be allowed to be thuper duper!
Hit the nail on the head here! This is the 'old GW' rearing it's ugly head...

Except Rubrics got taller. Death Guard won't be far behind.

**theocracity**

Gamgee wrote:
Jambles wrote:
Wonderwolf wrote:
NivlacSupreme wrote:

Three of the types of marine you named are just bodyguards. Not really unjustified.

So random fluff change makes all the difference for Space-Marine-Plus-Unit-No.-524?

Think of them and use them as Guilliman's (or random Chapter Master's) bodyguards in your Space Marine army than.

Problem solved.
GW claimed previously to their detriment that the setting and story of their tabletop minis game doesn't matter. What's the over-under on Age of Sigmar's little shake-up?

That said, this is far from an egregious addition to the fluff. It's not even particularly unique or new in the 40k universe. But to be fair, that was the point of the original post that started this, and it's one I happen to agree with. Yeah, I understand they'd be stupid not to make some new Space Marines when that's apparently their one and only moneymaker - I just wish that it wasn't so.

If most 40k fans truly, truly just wanted a new Space Marines army rather than a new, original faction? Fair enough. For my part, I just want something new that's not a Space Marine?

Yeap I am so sick of space marines at this point. Even non-space marines chaos models would be interesting like dark adeptus mechanicus or anything xenos. Next year is probably when they do the new xenos stuff, but it's a long slog through half a year of spezz marines and chaos marines.

I would be down with an updated IG with new weapons of war from Cawl and Robute. Just to show humans can actually do something in the setting anymore except be lorded over by super humans.

Of course, on the other hand, I'm a longtime Xenos player who feels like this is the first time I'm interested in actually collecting Marines. The feeling may pass but it's there - these guys feel like they live up to what the reputation Astartes should have. I love it when they do new armies like Mechanicus and Harlequins, but these dudes are turning the head of at least one person who previously wasn't interested in Marines.

I mean, I would also be headcanoning them into being regular Astartes because my fluff campaign setting is set earlier in the timeline, but still.

**Daedalus81**

stonehorse wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Just for fun I did a spot the difference on the old numarine pic.

None of the new models have that drum, but they do share some other features. So either the next kits will have an even better boltgun or someone at GW was trolling (but only a little).

Spoiler:

The painted model isn't a Primaris Marine, but a current Marine, hence the differences and similarities.

Right, but there are still some missing pieces that either make it a troll or yet to be unreleased kits (which we know some are coming).

**Orthon**

Will have to see the points on this. If old marines are like 13 pts and nu-marines are like 15 points for an extra wound and betta bolter, then yes, these are defacto replacement. I have little faith that GW will price them appropriately and will make them under costed to boost sales. Thankfully I don't play loyalist marines anymore...

**Daedalus81**

ClockworkZion wrote:

You claim this, but frankly I don't see anything that proves this assumption to be correct. Regular Marines are getting cheaper per model, and the new guys will be more expensive meaning smaller armies on the table (especially if you go pure Primaris).

And there is no reason -2 can't be balanced (look at Rubrics), as long as they're points costed correctly.

Because then everything has to scale accordingly. Not just a couple bolters.

**LightKing**

So are the Primaris marines as powerful as the Primarchs?

**Daedalus81**

Orthon wrote:
Will have to see the points on this. If old marines are like 13 pts and nu-marines are like 15 points for an extra wound and betta bolter, then yes, these are defacto replacement. I have little faith that GW will price them appropriately and will make them under costed to boost sales. Thankfully I don't play loyalist marines anymore...

I'm betting they'll be quite close to Rubrics - 20 points.

**Jambles**

theocracity wrote:

I mean, I would also be headcanoning them into being regular Astartes because my fluff campaign setting is set earlier in the timeline, but still.

Yeah there's a lot of that 'headcanon' stuff going around the thread!

Methinks maybe the lore of the Primaris marines isn't fitting quite as seamlessly into their setting as GW wishes it would...

**Verviedi**

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/15/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-tau-empire/

The T’au* are known currently for their deadly firepower and mobility. They utilise advanced Battlesuits to level blistering volleys of smart missiles and energy weapons into the enemies of the Greater Good. Riptides particularly–often seen in the Riptide Wing formation–are a common site. The combination of resilience and firepower is a potent cocktail that has left many a pair of smoking boots where once a foe stood. Those that do survive the fusillade to cross the battlefield must withstand the T’au’s other shooting phase, otherwise known as Supporting Fire with overwatch. However, those intrepid warriors that make it through all of that often strike the physically weaker T’au down, as melee is certainly not their forte….apart from the stomps dished out by the Stormsurge. That guy certainly never skipped leg day in the gym!

How do T’au play in new Warhammer 40,000? Will they still be the kings of ranged warfare?

Well, let’s start with the biggest and baddest suit in their arsenal, the Stormsurge. This beast of a suit currently terrorises the tables and will continue to do so in the new Warhammer 40,000, albeit in different ways. The Stormsurge has amazing firepower with its 10 weapons…and yes, I said 10 weapons, each of which can fire on a different target. The Anchors currently allow the Stormsurge to shoot twice, but in the new edition, this has been changed to a more reasonable (but still powerful!) +1 to hit in the Shooting phase, which works great when paired with one Markerlight hit on a target, allowing any T’au unit to reroll 1’s when firing on that unit. BS 3+ and re-rolling 1’s with 10 ranged weapons is enough to render most units to smoking ash. The Stormsurge also has the Walking Battleship special rule which allows him to Fall Back from combat and still shoot, while also ignoring the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. Stormsurges will remain a solid choice in the new edition.

The XV8 Crisis Battlesuits are next up on the docket. I consider these suits to be the iconic T’au unit, and the firepower from these guys will be very impressive. Very impressive indeed. They each can take 3 weapons (which again, you can fire all of them!). May I recommend a flamer plus two other weapons of your choice? My preference is dual missile pods for that lovely AP-1 and D3 damage per shot! The flamers give you nasty Overwatch defence, as they auto-hit incoming units that charge within their range. They can also be used offensively to clear objectives.

A unit of three Crisis Suits paired up with Markerlights will bring down even large vehicles relatively quickly. Multiple Crisis Suit units also work well together since supporting fire is still around, now called “For the Greater Good.” All those flamer hits from multiple XV8s into a charging unit is extremely powerful and will stop some of the strongest assault units dead in their tracks. Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect. Brutal! I am loving how these guys play, and they will be scattered all across the tables in T’au armies.

Lastly, I want to talk about Sniper Drones. When paired with the T’au HQ’s such as the Cadre Fireblade they will bring down those pesky support characters with deadly efficiency even if they are hiding behind their infantry. The 48″ range on their Sniper weapons, plus their fast movement, means they will be filling those characters with lead (or plasma?) a lot faster than snipers from other factions. They will be a truly deadly force in your army that will strike fear in opposing characters. Have a look at their datasheet, here:

Overall, the T’au will play relatively similarly to how they do now. They will have a lot more tricks up their sleeves and you’ll see a wider variety of units on the board than you currently do. They’ll catch a lot of people off guard with some of their cool special rules and tactical flexibility. Stop resisting and join the Greater Good, today.

Come back on Wednesday for some insights on the insidious Drukhari.

**ClockworkZion**

Daedalus81 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:

You claim this, but frankly I don't see anything that proves this assumption to be correct. Regular Marines are getting cheaper per model, and the new guys will be more expensive meaning smaller armies on the table (especially if you go pure Primaris).

And there is no reason -2 can't be balanced (look at Rubrics), as long as they're points costed correctly.

Because then everything has to scale accordingly. Not just a couple bolters.

If Marines got what people are calling "real bolters" with -1AP, then the new guys would have gotten buffed Bolters at -2. Claiming the 0AP is solely to buff new Marines is silly.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Verviedi wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/15/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-tau-empire/

Dang they're keeping me busy today! I'm still compiling FAQs from the other stuff.

They're all coming though!

**Verviedi**

Also, lol, Drukhari. Using the fancy names for M A X I M U M C O P Y R I G H T, are we?