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Gamgee wrote: They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.
Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.
The fact that you see nerfs tells us all we need to know about how your reacting. What I saw is terrifying for anyone that doesn't have a decent 100% focused shooting army.
The fact that everybody is attacking me says more about why I'm so defensive in the first place.
I think many of us find it interesting when so many other people are looking at these saying "OMG T'au are broken" and you come out immediately with. "Super Nerfed, near unplayable." "None of this good stuff matters".
Their rules thus far look fair to me especially with what we have seen from other armies.
Q: So what happens to the Firesight Marksman? If every model is still playable, and he's not in a sniper drone team, then...?
Also, at a 5+ to-hit, I don't imagine the sniper drones are going to have anyone quaking in their boots.
A: What if there's something in the army that helps them hit on a better roll?
Calling the Sniper Drone Controller working like a spotter character that buffs units of Sniper Drones.
That is good to hear. However someone pointed out to me since SS get +1 to hit in the article that it means the majority of the Tau are still probably only hitting on 4+ without any modifiers.
I'm not sure if even with an extra gun crisis suits will be worth it. It's only an extra two hits hitting on average with a three gun load out. Hardly game changing.
4+ is pretty good for a race whose eyes can't focus as fast as a human's....
stonehorse wrote: I wonder if GW losing the Chapter House Studios lawsuit all those years ago has played a large part in the creation of these. If they sell them as Primius Marines that is a new name they can trademark and protect.
But not prevent somebody make compatible parts etc just like CH did with regular marines.
If I were a Space Marine player, I'd feel pretty cheated by these new models.
50 odd pages ago, we had people doing all sorts of logical gymnastics to try and justify why bolters should be less effective against flak armour.
Well, now it seems you can have bolters that are effective against flak armour...
You just have to pay more money for the option...
For weeks and months, I've been hearing all sorts of people defending the 'new' GW, how they've changed, things are better etc etc
But this is a cynical move right out out of the Tom Kirby days...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I would say only the Stormsurge looks good. The sniper drone is so terrible even if given a buff to BS with a character. The lower to wound compared to before and the lack of rend makes it a non-viable unit choice. Why ever spend points on it when our pulse rifles will likely put out just as much damage? They have the same stat line or very similar. The only thing is the sniper drones have longer ranger and probably lower base BS until upgraded with a character.
As for crisis suits. 4+ with no ML buffs means even with a third weapon our army just got hit hard in the amount of firepower hitting.
I think these nerfs were too much. The Tau barring the broken Riptde and Stormsurge were not some terrifying forces of nature in the current edition that were stomping tournaments. Before the RIptide came along the Tau were pretty weak to be honest.
I'll reserve final judgement for the final rules, but this is definitely a bad sign. The Eldar artlce highlighted a lot of strong stuff and they are far far faaar stronger than the Tau.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/15 18:11:31
-Tau still have supporting fire, gross
-No double shooting Stormsurges, yay
-At least two units can Fall Back and Shoot, solid bet that this will be standard on all Suits
-Drones can Look Out
And the biggest one in my book: the <Sept> Keyword makes me think we'll see "Chapter Tactics" for Tau. Keep an eye on that one.
Another: Still no hint that bigger units would get price break ala HH. Some people assumed rubrics had it but clearly that was just psyker adding up price.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If I were a Space Marine player, I'd feel pretty cheated by these new models.
50 odd pages ago, we had people doing all sorts of logical gymnastics to try and justify why bolters should be less effective against flak armour.
Well, now it seems you can have bolters that are effective against flak armour...
You just have to pay more money for the option...
For weeks and months, I've been hearing all sorts of people defending the 'new' GW, how they've changed, things are better etc etc
But this is a cynical move right out out of the Tom Kirby days...
I'm not sure I understand. I'm just viewing these as new and improved bolters similar to the angelus ones that blood angels have. Those were ap4 bolters so I expected them to get rend 1 bolters as well. There are stronger versions of weapons in the game, of course, they just cost more points to keep things balanced. The only problem I'd have with the new marines is if they cost the same as a standard tactical, that would be unbalanced.
Q: So what happens to the Firesight Marksman? If every model is still playable, and he's not in a sniper drone team, then...?
Also, at a 5+ to-hit, I don't imagine the sniper drones are going to have anyone quaking in their boots.
A: What if there's something in the army that helps them hit on a better roll?
Calling the Sniper Drone Controller working like a spotter character that buffs units of Sniper Drones.
That is good to hear. However someone pointed out to me since SS get +1 to hit in the article that it means the majority of the Tau are still probably only hitting on 4+ without any modifiers.
I'm not sure if even with an extra gun crisis suits will be worth it. It's only an extra two hits hitting on average with a three gun load out. Hardly game changing.
4+ is pretty good for a race whose eyes can't focus as fast as a human's....
You know, this is probably neither here nor there, but I always though this was an odd bit of fluff anyway. Supposedly, Tau have very high visual acuity, but their eyes do not quickly re-focus. However, most of their suits and helmets and stuff all have cameras or sensors, which I would assume would mean that the tau pilot or Fire Warrior or whatever is actually just looking at a screen at a set focal length. So why would focus even matter? I'm sure the camera lens would to all the focusing for the eye anyway. Wierd...
...Anyway, I wonder if Stealth Suits or the Ghostkeel will have better stealth saves than the sniper drones or if this will be the "new" stealth. It's one of my favorite part of the Tau's M.O. so I hope it's still a significant thing rather than being a rather low-level modifier.
Gamgee wrote: Why ever spend points on it when our pulse rifles will likely put out just as much damage? They have the same stat line or very similar. The only thing is the sniper drones have longer ranger and probably lower base BS until upgraded with a character.
They move (likely) 2" more
They have a 48" rapid fire gun, so i'm assuming thats two shots at 24"
You can put them next to most units within 3" to soak fire
Its -1 to hit them
They can specifically target characters with that swath of s5
i'm not trying to say ye moaning dude but they seem like a pretty sweet unit to me with lots of uses.
You were talking about your battlesuits getting mushed in combat,,, have 5 drones with 3" they get charged the drones take all the hits
You just fallback
Oh look now you can shoot that enemy unit to bits with your special rule and all he killed were drones
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/15 18:18:37
Savior Protocols could be a real hassle if the independent gun/marker/(Oh God)shield drone squad is still a thing.
String them out to get within 3" of a bunch of units, then just pick and choose who to protect. 8" move lets the drones adjust quickly once they start getting picked off.
Q: So what happens to the Firesight Marksman? If every model is still playable, and he's not in a sniper drone team, then...?
Also, at a 5+ to-hit, I don't imagine the sniper drones are going to have anyone quaking in their boots.
A: What if there's something in the army that helps them hit on a better roll?
Calling the Sniper Drone Controller working like a spotter character that buffs units of Sniper Drones.
That is good to hear. However someone pointed out to me since SS get +1 to hit in the article that it means the majority of the Tau are still probably only hitting on 4+ without any modifiers.
I'm not sure if even with an extra gun crisis suits will be worth it. It's only an extra two hits hitting on average with a three gun load out. Hardly game changing.
4+ is pretty good for a race whose eyes can't focus as fast as a human's....
You know, this is probably neither here nor there, but I always though this was an odd bit of fluff anyway. Supposedly, Tau have very high visual acuity, but their eyes do not quickly re-focus. However, most of their suits and helmets and stuff all have cameras or sensors, which I would assume would mean that the tau pilot or Fire Warrior or whatever is actually just looking at a screen at a set focal length. So why would focus even matter? I'm sure the camera lens would to all the focusing for the eye anyway. Wierd...
...Anyway, I wonder if Stealth Suits or the Ghostkeel will have better stealth saves than the sniper drones or if this will be the "new" stealth. It's one of my favorite part of the Tau's M.O. so I hope it's still a significant thing rather than being a rather low-level modifier.
Cameras still need time to refocus, and autofocus doesn't always work right as we can see with modern cameras. Even a smarter AI may not automatically adjust focus on the correct object fast enough to help.
JohnU wrote: Savior Protocols could be a real hassle if the independent gun/marker/(Oh God)shield drone squad is still a thing.
String them out to get within 3" of a bunch of units, then just pick and choose who to protect. 8" move lets the drones adjust quickly once they start getting picked off.
They're very squishy though. T4, W1 and a 4+ isn't going to keep them kicking for long - especially as Battleshock might see off even more of them.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Yeah there could be some fringe use there, but it depends on the terrain for line of sight as well as what army I'm facing. Still if they can't reduce the save then it would take a tremendous amount of them to do anything. Even then against heavier things like nu-marines half of those will get through or less. It just doesn't seem worth it when hopefully something better exists in the codex.
Gamgee wrote: I would say only the Stormsurge looks good. The sniper drone is so terrible even if given a buff to BS with a character. The lower to wound compared to before and the lack of rend makes it a non-viable unit choice. Why ever spend points on it when our pulse rifles will likely put out just as much damage? They have the same stat line or very similar. The only thing is the sniper drones have longer ranger and probably lower base BS until upgraded with a character.
As for crisis suits. 4+ with no ML buffs means even with a third weapon our army just got hit hard in the amount of firepower hitting.
I think these nerfs were too much. The Tau barring the broken Riptde and Stormsurge were not some terrifying forces of nature in the current edition that were stomping tournaments. Before the RIptide came along the Tau were pretty weak to be honest.
I'll reserve final judgement for the final rules, but this is definitely a bad sign. The Eldar artlce highlighted a lot of strong stuff and they are far far faaar stronger than the Tau.
How is the sniper drone now "so terrible"? It was hitting on 5's by itself before but needed a character to buff it. It now wounds on a 3+ instead of a 4+ against most infantry now, it will be the same against T5, and only worse than it was against T6 or above. It also got a buff to 8" movement but it may not have a free assault move anymore. The reason to spend on the sniper instead of fire warriors is because he can target characters hiding behind units to remove enemy buffs which will be huge and gives a great new role to snipers that they were terrible at before because of LOS.
FYI, saying several times that the Tau are getting nerfed is not "reserving judgment for the final rules".
How hard is it to just accept that BS3 represents the skill of a trained marksman and soldier. On a d6 game, we don't get fine gradation between skill levels. BS3 represents a range of skill levels - generally representing the skill of a professional soldier. BS4 is superhuman levels of accuracy and skill - achieved by marines and Eldar, or incredibly advanced targetting computers, and such. Why so much angst about Tau being BS3?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If I were a Space Marine player, I'd feel pretty cheated by these new models.
50 odd pages ago, we had people doing all sorts of logical gymnastics to try and justify why bolters should be less effective against flak armour.
Well, now it seems you can have bolters that are effective against flak armour...
You just have to pay more money for the option...
For weeks and months, I've been hearing all sorts of people defending the 'new' GW, how they've changed, things are better etc etc
But this is a cynical move right out out of the Tom Kirby days...
I mean, I still think that Boltguns with -1 AP would be bad for the game as it would set a bad precedent for what constitutes a basic infantry weapon. I'm not a huge fan of bolt rifles getting that boost either, but at least the basic infantry in this case doesn't get special weapon options in its tac-squad equivalent organization, so that AP is there to serve a purpose by making them slightly more flexible.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 18:22:02
They're very squishy though. T4, W1 and a 4+ isn't going to keep them kicking for long - especially as Battleshock might see off even more of them.
1) They have a long range and are fairly fast.
2) They don't need to be in front of a unit to shield them.
3) Any weapon that wants to target them will take a while to get into range.
Cameras still need time to refocus, and autofocus doesn't always work right as we can see with modern cameras. Even a smarter AI may not automatically adjust focus on the correct object fast enough to help.
That could be true. Of course, you can always justify fluff with all manner of hand-waving. Personally, I have to assume that most battlefield sensors would have a very broad depth-of-field so constant minute adjustments wouldn't be necessary --unlike most cell cameras for instance. I'm not saying they shouldn't have a flaw like this, but I just still find it a little odd.
Gamgee wrote: I would say only the Stormsurge looks good. The sniper drone is so terrible even if given a buff to BS with a character. The lower to wound compared to before and the lack of rend makes it a non-viable unit choice. Why ever spend points on it when our pulse rifles will likely put out just as much damage? They have the same stat line or very similar. The only thing is the sniper drones have longer ranger and probably lower base BS until upgraded with a character.
As for crisis suits. 4+ with no ML buffs means even with a third weapon our army just got hit hard in the amount of firepower hitting.
I think these nerfs were too much. The Tau barring the broken Riptde and Stormsurge were not some terrifying forces of nature in the current edition that were stomping tournaments. Before the RIptide came along the Tau were pretty weak to be honest.
I'll reserve final judgement for the final rules, but this is definitely a bad sign. The Eldar artlce highlighted a lot of strong stuff and they are far far faaar stronger than the Tau.
How is the sniper drone now "so terrible"? It was hitting on 5's by itself before but needed a character to buff it. It now wounds on a 3+ instead of a 4+ against most infantry now, it will be the same against T5, and only worse than it was against T6 or above. It also got a buff to 8" movement but it may not have a free assault move anymore. The reason to spend on the sniper instead of fire warriors is because he can target characters hiding behind units to remove enemy buffs which will be huge and gives a great new role to snipers that they were terrible at before because of LOS.
FYI, saying several times that the Tau are getting nerfed is not "reserving judgment for the final rules".
Except it now has the stats of our Pulse Rifle so why not just take more of those? Cheaper and has higher base BS without needing to pay for a marksman upgrade. The sniper is for wounding special characters. With it's poor stat line unless it's shooting at guardsmen equivalent characters it's not going to be wounding anything. No rend means it's useless as a sniper. It would take an entire squad of shooting at things to do minimal damage to heavier characters, and if I want to kill infantry I hope out basic firewarriors are more cost effective. In the current edition it has no use for much the same reason. Looks to be even worse in the next.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/15 18:24:08
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If I were a Space Marine player, I'd feel pretty cheated by these new models.
50 odd pages ago, we had people doing all sorts of logical gymnastics to try and justify why bolters should be less effective against flak armour.
Well, now it seems you can have bolters that are effective against flak armour...
You just have to pay more money for the option...
For weeks and months, I've been hearing all sorts of people defending the 'new' GW, how they've changed, things are better etc etc
But this is a cynical move right out out of the Tom Kirby days...
It's literally just a kraken round bolter. The stats are literally identical given ap 4=-1 so far. It's nothing sternguard and death watch wont be able to do as well.
Gamgee wrote: Yeah there could be some fringe use there, but it depends on the terrain for line of sight as well as what army I'm facing. Still if they can't reduce the save then it would take a tremendous amount of them to do anything. Even then against heavier things like nu-marines half of those will get through or less. It just doesn't seem worth it when hopefully something better exists in the codex.
You seem to have your mind set in 7th still
8th is a different beast compared to 7th as 7th was compared to 6th
the game is going to be played WAY differently snipers possibly becoming paramount against the majority of the tactics people may end up using. not to mention we dont know what drone controllers will even do in this edition. we dont know the full power of markerlights. we also dont even know how much sniper drones will cost.
Cameras still need time to refocus, and autofocus doesn't always work right as we can see with modern cameras. Even a smarter AI may not automatically adjust focus on the correct object fast enough to help.
That could be true. Of course, you can always justify fluff with all manner of hand-waving. Personally, I have to assume that most battlefield sensors would have a very broad depth-of-field so constant minute adjustments wouldn't be necessary --unlike most cell cameras for instance. I'm not saying they shouldn't have a flaw like this, but I just still find it a little odd.
You could handwave it, but let's be honest, the shootiest faction (not the most dakka filled though) should not be hitting on 3+ across the board. That would be horrible for balance and only make playing against them even less fun then it currently is in 7th.
Except it now has the stats of our Pulse Rifle so why not just take more of those? Cheaper and has higher base BS without needing to pay for a marksman upgrade. The sniper is for wounding special characters. With it's poor stat line unless it's shooting at guardsmen equivalent characters it's not going to be wounding anything. No rend means it's useless as a sniper. It would take an entire squad of shooting at things to do minimal damage to heavier characters, and if I want to kill infantry I hope out basic firewarriors are more cost effective. In the current edition it has no use for much the same reason. Looks to be even worse in the next.
Spoiler:
It's Rapid Fire 48".
And we already know that Cadre Fireblades do grant "abilities in a bubble"(we got that early on) rather than single units now.
PS: You, personally, are not being attacked. Your behavior of doomsaying is however being called out.
We got exceedingly brief snippets of information, like other factions did, for the T'au...and you're acting as though it completely ruins the faction. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't.
So far, it seems like it doesn't.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 18:27:22
Gamgee wrote: I would say only the Stormsurge looks good. The sniper drone is so terrible even if given a buff to BS with a character. The lower to wound compared to before and the lack of rend makes it a non-viable unit choice. Why ever spend points on it when our pulse rifles will likely put out just as much damage? They have the same stat line or very similar. The only thing is the sniper drones have longer ranger and probably lower base BS until upgraded with a character.
As for crisis suits. 4+ with no ML buffs means even with a third weapon our army just got hit hard in the amount of firepower hitting.
I think these nerfs were too much. The Tau barring the broken Riptde and Stormsurge were not some terrifying forces of nature in the current edition that were stomping tournaments. Before the RIptide came along the Tau were pretty weak to be honest.
I'll reserve final judgement for the final rules, but this is definitely a bad sign. The Eldar artlce highlighted a lot of strong stuff and they are far far faaar stronger than the Tau.
How is the sniper drone now "so terrible"? It was hitting on 5's by itself before but needed a character to buff it. It now wounds on a 3+ instead of a 4+ against most infantry now, it will be the same against T5, and only worse than it was against T6 or above. It also got a buff to 8" movement but it may not have a free assault move anymore. The reason to spend on the sniper instead of fire warriors is because he can target characters hiding behind units to remove enemy buffs which will be huge and gives a great new role to snipers that they were terrible at before because of LOS.
FYI, saying several times that the Tau are getting nerfed is not "reserving judgment for the final rules".
Except it now has the stats of our Pulse Rifle so why not just take more of those? Cheaper and has higher base BS without needing to pay for a marksman upgrade. The sniper is for wounding special characters. With it's poor stat line unless it's shooting at guardsmen equivalent characters it's not going to be wounding anything. No rend means it's useless as a sniper. It would take an entire squad of shooting at things to do minimal damage to heavier characters, and if I want to kill infantry I hope out basic firewarriors are more cost effective. In the current edition it has no use for much the same reason. Looks to be even worse in the next.
To be fair you are right about the damage output
10 of them at 24" is 20 shots, 6.667 hit vs a basic marine thats 4.4 wounds and 1.4 deaths
