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 En Excelsis wrote:


I really liked the Warp Talons models but could never really get a consistent use for them in my FOC.

I expect that they won't be over costed like they are now. And their special rule won't be so random and target dependent.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Leth wrote:
From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?

They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"

Something I didnt see mentioned and might be interesting to consider.

I am interested to see how the number of units in your army will be calculated. Since dedicated transports are bought for a detachment instead of a unit(a really welcome change I might add which circumvents the transports as force org chart issue). Does the pod and the unit count as two in reserve? What if they have 5 men in the unit and two characters. does that count as 4 units in reserve?

Man, I hope that they don't take that away. Perhaps the Daemons will get an additional +1 attack? Otherwise, if they take away Pistols giving +1 attack and charging giving +1 attack, Assault Marines are going to be garbage tier.

Or maybe not, because Assault units will have more Attacks in their profile than not attacks units? And better meele weapons? Charge gives you to attack first, it doesn't need +1 attack on plus of that.

v0iddrgn wrote:
To all those guys posting on here that the loss of vehicle armor facings and templates have made tactical positioning a thing of the past, today's "teleport" rules have squashed your arguments flat. Now with units arriving from reserves being allowed to launch assaults in the same turn BUT[i] must come in at least 9" away, model positioning is key. Make sure you have some chaff units in your list, guys, it's a whole new day.

Learn the term "Bubble Wrap".

Well, assaulting from reserves appears to be a thing. Good to know.

Barring special rules allowing closer placement, that means the assaulting army will need to roll a 9 on 2d6. Remember that the rules explicitly state you must place the deepstriking model OVER 9" away (not 9" or more, but OVER 9"), which means even with the 1" bubble, a roll of 8 or less cannot, by definition, engage an enemy model.

Also noticeable is that, with an over 9" placement requirement, you aren't going to get deepstriking meltaguns/combi-meltas into their half-range zone, which will help protect multi-wound models somewhat. You can, however, probably deepstrike Multimeltas (if they keep their range) and get the half-range melta bonus completely reliably. No wonder they got a price hike!

v0iddrgn wrote:
To all those guys posting on here that the loss of vehicle armor facings and templates have made tactical positioning a thing of the past, today's "teleport" rules have squashed your arguments flat. Now with units arriving from reserves being allowed to launch assaults in the same turn BUT[i] must come in at least 9" away, model positioning is key. Make sure you have some chaff units in your list, guys, it's a whole new day.

Afraid you're mixing apples with oranges.

Tactical Positioning for vehicles is still a thing of the past. And it's no different than the positioning of chap already used to put infiltrators away from key units.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Well, assaulting from reserves appears to be a thing. Good to know.

Barring special rules allowing closer placement, that means the assaulting army will need to roll a 9 on 2d6. Remember that the rules explicitly state you must place the deepstriking model OVER 9" away (not 9" or more, but OVER 9"), which means even with the 1" bubble, a roll of 8 or less cannot, by definition, engage an enemy model.

Also noticeable is that, with an over 9" placement requirement, you aren't going to get deepstriking meltaguns/combi-meltas into their half-range zone, which will help protect multi-wound models somewhat. You can, however, probably deepstrike Multimeltas (if they keep their range) and get the half-range melta bonus completely reliably. No wonder they got a price hike!

Hmm good point on the 9". That makes it 10/36.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Well, assaulting from reserves appears to be a thing. Good to know.

Barring special rules allowing closer placement, that means the assaulting army will need to roll a 9 on 2d6. Remember that the rules explicitly state you must place the deepstriking model OVER 9" away (not 9" or more, but OVER 9"), which means even with the 1" bubble, a roll of 8 or less cannot, by definition, engage an enemy model.

Also noticeable is that, with an over 9" placement requirement, you aren't going to get deepstriking meltaguns/combi-meltas into their half-range zone, which will help protect multi-wound models somewhat. You can, however, probably deepstrike Multimeltas (if they keep their range) and get the half-range melta bonus completely reliably. No wonder they got a price hike!

Yes? You deepstrike 9" then run them in, right? If you get over 3" then you get the melta bonus.

 nintura wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Most people probably want to move the thread on to the latest topic, but I'll make one final point about the 40k fluff:

What GW did to the Necron fluff was a bad bad blunder in my eyes.

You had these scary, merciless machines popping up from nowhere, almost the image of death, and very hard to kill,

and GW had to turn them into Ancient Egypt, thus robbing them off their power, fear factor, and mystery...

Years back, I used to do narrative scenarios with some average joe guardsman in the middle of nowhere, fighting a last ditch defence against these machines, and it was fun...

These days, you have no need to fill in the gaps about the Necrons with your imagination, because it has been done for you.

There was nothing wrong with GW dropping a hint here, a hint there, to add some spice to the Necrons, but chapter and verse?

It's like the missing primarchs - the power of the story and narrative is there because those missing primarchs are different to everybody.

And that made the game fun. Too much story is often not a good thing...

Except that we already had a faction that didn't care about you. It only wanted to devour you and didn't care about anything else whatsoever.

The Wardification of the Necrons was something that to this day is still annoying to witness. The old background was elegant, as it gave enough information, but also left enough out that it created mystery. Also it had the hall marks of ending a greater story to the 40k universe, one that was faught over and lost aeons ago, and wasn't Human centric. It was evident that the writers were heavily influenced by not only Lovecraft, but also Babylon 5. Also the Necrons while being mindless, were led by characters that oozed character, the C'tan, who had a plan for the galaxy beyond mindless consumption. The whole Pariah gene was instrumented by the C'tan, and was going to be their big way of closing the warp, so they could rule the material realm as the Gods they are, while feasting on the misery and pain they inflicted upon the galaxy.

All this was washed away and we had Tomb Kings in space, with hamfisted names at an attempt at puns, and some truly laughable models. The 3rd edition range was perfect, no elaborate onimentation, they looked practical, which given that they are were a machine race, made perfect sense. Also the Monolith to this day looks very alien and bizarre as an engine of war. Where the newer models are far too ostentatious, and have lost that simple elegance.

 Galas wrote:
I like the reserve changes. Yeah, you can't have a full Deathwing or Droppod army deepstrike in the first turn, but thats why Matched Play puts "balance" before "fluffy". To have those fluffy armies you can have Narrative games.


And, En Excelsis, I just want to say that if you think Tau are genocidal, you just don't know their Lore. In the fact that they don't belong to the universe, I'm not gonna discuss thats. Is your opinion and is fine.

I don't know that It's completely out of the cards yet. It is still possible that the Deathwing style of play could be replicated - we don't know what special rules those units will have after all.

I am fine dropping the discussion about the Tau since it isn't super relevant to this thread anyway, but the 'if you disagree with me than you just don't know' is a tad immature. There are a lot of reasons why I have my opinion and it seems like you could benefit from some additional reading outside of this thread.

 Imateria wrote:

Yeah, it always annoyed me how Trygons usually came on at the same time as, or after, everything else making their tunnel completely useless. I can see this as a brilliant way to get a horde of Hormagaunts into battle with the rear lines of an enemy turn 2 with only a 6" charge (because they're placed within 3" of the Trygon) and leaving the only room for your opponent to fall back being towards the rest of the army.

It's still 9". The unit accompanying the Trygon needs to be 9" away from enemy models.

 nintura wrote:

Yes? You deepstrike 9" then run them in, right? If you get over 3" then you get the melta bonus.

You can't make any run or other moves after teleporting in AoS.

 Galas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Leth wrote:
From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?

They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"

Something I didnt see mentioned and might be interesting to consider.

I am interested to see how the number of units in your army will be calculated. Since dedicated transports are bought for a detachment instead of a unit(a really welcome change I might add which circumvents the transports as force org chart issue). Does the pod and the unit count as two in reserve? What if they have 5 men in the unit and two characters. does that count as 4 units in reserve?

Man, I hope that they don't take that away. Perhaps the Daemons will get an additional +1 attack? Otherwise, if they take away Pistols giving +1 attack and charging giving +1 attack, Assault Marines are going to be garbage tier.

Or maybe not, because Assault units will have more Attacks in their profile than not attacks units? And better meele weapons? Charge gives you to attack first, it doesn't need +1 attack on plus of that.

If they put all the attacks I would be missing out on directly in the profile of the Assault Squad, I would be fine. Giving them 2 attacks base and a rule that gives +1 attack on the charge would be viable.

I just read Frankie's and Reece's articles on the factions... I didn't realize that there was "crunch" in there and not just "fluff."

He (Frankie I think) mentioned in the Daemons post that they had "invulnerable saves." I guess I was under the impression that that mechanic was no more and it was just generic saves? Did I misread that?

Also, he mentioned in Tau a "rerollable" to hit in the Tau article (excuse me, T'au). I thought re-rolls were potentially out too? Was I mentally wish-listing or something?

 Leth wrote:
From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?

They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"

Noticed that. It's gone.

Pretty sure the +1 attack for having a pistol and a close combat weapon is gone as well. Instead, pistols shoot into close combat during the shooting phase. Just speculation on my part.

 nintura wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Well, assaulting from reserves appears to be a thing. Good to know.

Barring special rules allowing closer placement, that means the assaulting army will need to roll a 9 on 2d6. Remember that the rules explicitly state you must place the deepstriking model OVER 9" away (not 9" or more, but OVER 9"), which means even with the 1" bubble, a roll of 8 or less cannot, by definition, engage an enemy model.

Also noticeable is that, with an over 9" placement requirement, you aren't going to get deepstriking meltaguns/combi-meltas into their half-range zone, which will help protect multi-wound models somewhat. You can, however, probably deepstrike Multimeltas (if they keep their range) and get the half-range melta bonus completely reliably. No wonder they got a price hike!

Yes? You deepstrike 9" then run them in, right? If you get over 3" then you get the melta bonus.

In the article:

Though that 9″ distance to the enemy (which is common to a lot of units with similar abilities) will mean that the averages on the dice will be against you for that 2D6 charge distance.

If you can move in the same phase you arrive, then "the averages on the dice" will not "be against you".

While it hasn't been explicitly stated, I think its reasonable to extrapolate that non-charge movement in the same phase you arrive by deepstrike is not going to be available (at least, not without bespoke rules).

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Leth wrote:
From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?

They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"

Something I didnt see mentioned and might be interesting to consider.

I am interested to see how the number of units in your army will be calculated. Since dedicated transports are bought for a detachment instead of a unit(a really welcome change I might add which circumvents the transports as force org chart issue). Does the pod and the unit count as two in reserve? What if they have 5 men in the unit and two characters. does that count as 4 units in reserve?

Man, I hope that they don't take that away. Perhaps the Daemons will get an additional +1 attack? Otherwise, if they take away Pistols giving +1 attack and charging giving +1 attack, Assault Marines are going to be garbage tier.

The may just increase their base Attacks stat - much easier.

 Galas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Leth wrote:
From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?

They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"

Something I didnt see mentioned and might be interesting to consider.

I am interested to see how the number of units in your army will be calculated. Since dedicated transports are bought for a detachment instead of a unit(a really welcome change I might add which circumvents the transports as force org chart issue). Does the pod and the unit count as two in reserve? What if they have 5 men in the unit and two characters. does that count as 4 units in reserve?

Man, I hope that they don't take that away. Perhaps the Daemons will get an additional +1 attack? Otherwise, if they take away Pistols giving +1 attack and charging giving +1 attack, Assault Marines are going to be garbage tier.

Or maybe not, because Assault units will have more Attacks in their profile than not attacks units? And better meele weapons? Charge gives you to attack first, it doesn't need +1 attack on plus of that.

Well we dont know how multiple melee weapons will work. What if having two weapons still gets you a bonus attack and pistols have the OPTION of not counting as a bonus weapon if you fire it during the shooting phase. Maybe instead if you have two weapons you have to allocate your attacks between the two to get +1 Attack rather than a pistol giving your legendary sword a bonus attack.

Who knows, so many options.

Also from what I understand(and I might be wrong) is that in AOS you alternate deploying units and whomever finishes first gets a bonus or goes first(not sure). So you can take a count and plan accordingly. So armies with a ton of units in reserve might be more likely to go first. Lots of context is needed.

They arrive at the end of the movement phase so they completely miss out on the opportunity to run(part of the units movement) and the opportunity to move(outside of being deployed) A nice compromise.

However a lot of these rules would not be possible if characters were allowed to join units as you could just slingshot units into assault with characters. It will be interesting to see, but I bet teleporting, subterranian, jump deep strike, etc will have slightly different rules and I think that will be awesome.

 doktor_g wrote:
I just read Frankie's and Reece's articles on the factions... I didn't realize that there was "crunch" in there and not just "fluff."

He (Frankie I think) mentioned in the Daemons post that they had "invulnerable saves." I guess I was under the impression that that mechanic was no more and it was just generic saves? Did I misread that?

Also, he mentioned in Tau a "rerollable" to hit in the Tau article (excuse me, T'au). I thought re-rolls were potentially out too? Was I mentally wish-listing or something?

Invulnerable saves are in. No idea if we can take both armor and invuln.

Rerolls are most certainly in and necessary in a D6 system.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 En Excelsis wrote:


I really liked the Warp Talons models but could never really get a consistent use for them in my FOC.

I expect that they won't be over costed like they are now. And their special rule won't be so random and target dependent.

Maybe. If I had my druthers I would just make better use of the 'blind' effect that results from their deepstrike. It would be more useful if they could not be targeted or overwatched on the turn they appear - it was what they were trying to do before just the models never replicated it on the table.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Yes? You deepstrike 9" then run them in, right? If you get over 3" then you get the melta bonus.

You can't make any run or other moves after teleporting in AoS.

Nor can you shoot after running in 8th (thats already been confirmed, though I expect Battle Focus will still let you do so).

I'd prefer a bring in your reserves on a 2+ or something, but I quite like "Call it when you want it". Many units are going to assault directly from deepstrike, and I think that is OK in many ways. On the other hand, if they are taking out the random, they REALLY need to watch the game balance. For example they dodged a bullet with 9" away deepstrike, 8" flamer range. Otherwise crisis suits who hit you with 3-18 automatic hits (EACH) followed by another 3-18 automatic hits when you assaulted them were going to make any pure assault units utterly worthless. Still, could be really great done right. Fingers crossed.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Leth wrote:
From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?

They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"

Something I didnt see mentioned and might be interesting to consider.

I am interested to see how the number of units in your army will be calculated. Since dedicated transports are bought for a detachment instead of a unit(a really welcome change I might add which circumvents the transports as force org chart issue). Does the pod and the unit count as two in reserve? What if they have 5 men in the unit and two characters. does that count as 4 units in reserve?

Man, I hope that they don't take that away. Perhaps the Daemons will get an additional +1 attack? Otherwise, if they take away Pistols giving +1 attack and charging giving +1 attack, Assault Marines are going to be garbage tier.

The may just increase their base Attacks stat - much easier.

I addressed that in a follow up post. I would be fine with that. It would be a net gain for my Assault Squads with Special Weapons instead of Pistols.

 doktor_g wrote:
I just read Frankie's and Reece's articles on the factions... I didn't realize that there was "crunch" in there and not just "fluff."

He (Frankie I think) mentioned in the Daemons post that they had "invulnerable saves." I guess I was under the impression that that mechanic was no more and it was just generic saves? Did I misread that?

Also, he mentioned in Tau a "rerollable" to hit in the Tau article (excuse me, T'au). I thought re-rolls were potentially out too? Was I mentally wish-listing or something?

Invulns ignore the Ap but donlt work against Mortal Wounds

 En Excelsis wrote:


Maybe. If I had my druthers I would just make better use of the 'blind' effect that results from their deepstrike. It would be more useful if they could not be targeted or overwatched on the turn they appear - it was what they were trying to do before just the models never replicated it on the table.

Ooh that could be cool - no overwatch versus Warp Talons on the turn they arrive. The sky is the limit for rules they can create.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kestral wrote:
I'd prefer a bring in your reserves on a 2+ or something, but I quite like "Call it when you want it". Many units are going to assault directly from deepstrike, and I think that is OK in many ways. On the other hand, if they are taking out the random, they REALLY need to watch the game balance. For example they dodged a bullet with 9" away deepstrike, 8" flamer range. Otherwise crisis suits who hit you with 3-18 automatic hits (EACH) followed by another 3-18 automatic hits when you assaulted them were going to make any pure assault units utterly worthless. Still, could be really great done right. Fingers crossed.

Dodged a bullet or were deliberately aware?

 stonehorse wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Most people probably want to move the thread on to the latest topic, but I'll make one final point about the 40k fluff:

What GW did to the Necron fluff was a bad bad blunder in my eyes.

You had these scary, merciless machines popping up from nowhere, almost the image of death, and very hard to kill,

and GW had to turn them into Ancient Egypt, thus robbing them off their power, fear factor, and mystery...

Years back, I used to do narrative scenarios with some average joe guardsman in the middle of nowhere, fighting a last ditch defence against these machines, and it was fun...

These days, you have no need to fill in the gaps about the Necrons with your imagination, because it has been done for you.

There was nothing wrong with GW dropping a hint here, a hint there, to add some spice to the Necrons, but chapter and verse?

It's like the missing primarchs - the power of the story and narrative is there because those missing primarchs are different to everybody.

And that made the game fun. Too much story is often not a good thing...

Except that we already had a faction that didn't care about you. It only wanted to devour you and didn't care about anything else whatsoever.

The Wardification of the Necrons was something that to this day is still annoying to witness. The old background was elegant, as it gave enough information, but also left enough out that it created mystery. Also it had the hall marks of ending a greater story to the 40k universe, one that was faught over and lost aeons ago, and wasn't Human centric. It was evident that the writers were heavily influenced by not only Lovecraft, but also Babylon 5. Also the Necrons while being mindless, were led by characters that oozed character, the C'tan, who had a plan for the galaxy beyond mindless consumption. The whole Pariah gene was instrumented by the C'tan, and was going to be their big way of closing the warp, so they could rule the material realm as the Gods they are, while feasting on the misery and pain they inflicted upon the galaxy.

All this was washed away and we had Tomb Kings in space, with hamfisted names at an attempt at puns, and some truly laughable models. The 3rd edition range was perfect, no elaborate onimentation, they looked practical, which given that they are were a machine race, made perfect sense. Also the Monolith to this day looks very alien and bizarre as an engine of war. Where the newer models are far too ostentatious, and have lost that simple elegance.

I like my Tomb Kings in space. Maybe it sucks for people who only liked the old fluff (though you can easily still make a Dynasty with that fluff), but I think it makes them a much more complete faction rather than just "Terminators in space".

 kestral wrote:
I'd prefer a bring in your reserves on a 2+ or something, but I quite like "Call it when you want it". Many units are going to assault directly from deepstrike, and I think that is OK in many ways. On the other hand, if they are taking out the random, they REALLY need to watch the game balance. For example they dodged a bullet with 9" away deepstrike, 8" flamer range. Otherwise crisis suits who hit you with 3-18 automatic hits (EACH) followed by another 3-18 automatic hits when you assaulted them were going to make any pure assault units utterly worthless. Still, could be really great done right. Fingers crossed.

We haven't seen the stat line for Crisis suit flamers. We do know that Flame pistols and Flamers have different ranges (6" and 8" respectively) for the Rubric Marines, and things like Heavy flamers and xenos flamers could easily have an extra few inches in range.

Yes, I'm aware that currently the Crisis Suit flamers are no different from the basic Imperium flamer, but its always possible that could change.

But yeah, the over 9" range is going to limit the ability to drop and fry units the turn you arrive (even our 18" Fusion Blaster won't be able to get within half-range for the boosted damage).

Vorian wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I like it! Definitely helps cancel out some of the shooting buffs. It also has no restriction on doing the teleport in turn one!!!!

This is going to shake things up a lot. It will be interesting to see if drop pods have some exception or not.

I very much doubt they will.

Primaris Drop Pods, on the other hand...

 Imateria wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Yes? You deepstrike 9" then run them in, right? If you get over 3" then you get the melta bonus.

You can't make any run or other moves after teleporting in AoS.

Nor can you shoot after running in 8th (thats already been confirmed, though I expect Battle Focus will still let you do so).

I'm pretty sure the deployment is at the end of the movement phase. And as running is done in the Movement phase I think it is a way of implying that units can't reseve deploy and run on the same turn.

 Oaka wrote:


Primaris Drop Pods, on the other hand...

Some units in AoS with a character in play can drop closer than 9". It is a possibility - with a point cost attached.

Something worth noting, I'm thinking this means that everything previously with Jump/Jet Pack will no longer be able to Deep Strike. This might mean the death of Farsight bombs, but who knows.