40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**Daedalus81**

xttz wrote:
Previews:

Spoiler:

Ok so I presume flyers don't have to leave the table and return based on the wording for fly. This is awesome.

**ClockworkZion**

spiralingcadaver wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
The endless posts from people who simply haven't read the info are tedious. Use your eyes and stop asking people to spoonfeed you!!!

There's over 300 pages in this thread and around 40 links to rules in the OP, no including the FAQs which have a ton of non-info banter through which you might be able to sift a few more actual answers. I've been trying to keep on top of stuff, but that's a ridiculous amount of stuff for me to just "use my eyes" if I'm not looking for something obvious.

I keep up despite not being online for than six hours or so on most days, but I'm also crazy and do those Facebook round ups (looks like I,ll have a fair share to do today between the launch info, whatever today's article is and the Faction Focus too).

But I agree, there is a lot of info, but there are a lot of people who basically jump into the thread and ask something that has been answered already on that very same page.

I don't recommend trying to read EVERYTHING but the last page or two shouldn't hurt to prevent us being bogged down with multiple repeats of the same question.

**spiralingcadaver**

frozenwastes wrote:
I think his point might be to read whatever the latest article is before commenting on it or asking questions that reading it would answer.

Oh, eh, yeah, that's reasonable.

**JohnnyHell**

That was exactly my point.

Read the OP (lovingly compiled by Rippy, thank you kind sir!), Warhammer Community site and Warhammer 40K Facebook page.

Don't bother trying to comb a chat thread for the facts when they're presented in a rather finite number of places already.

**ClockworkZion**

JohnnyHell wrote:
That was exactly my point.

Plus read the OP (lovingly compiled by Rippy, thank you kind sir!), Warhammer Community site and Warhammer 40K Facebook page.

Don't bother trying to comb a chat thread for the facts when they're presented in a rather finite number of places already.

Facebook page generally gets rolled into the OP, so you can skip that one if you want.

**Daedalus81**

Warhams-77 wrote:
There will also be a new 40k app soon after release - we dont have much info yet but it could be a better choice price-wise

Source?

**JohnnyHell**

See? Even easier!

**Deadshot**

tirnaog wrote:
So,
index Imperium I: Space Marines, Blood angels, Dark angels, Space Wolves, Grey knights, Deadwatch, Legion of the damned.
Index Imperium II: Astra militarum, Adeptus Mechanicus, Imperial Knights, Imperial Agents, Talons of the emperor.
Index Chaos: Heretic astartes, Chaos daemons, Questor traitoris
Index xenos I: Craftworld, Drukhari, Harlequin, Ynnari, Necrons.
Index Xenos II: Orks, Tau empire, Tyranids, genestealer cult.

As an Eldar/Orc player I have to get Main book and Xenos 1+2 to get the stuff I need to play! hmmm.

Also where Sisters of Battle,{dont like new name}.
Have they been finally dropped?
Was the only Imperial Army I was interested in doing.
:(

To further break it down for you, based on old Codex names

Imperium 1 contains: Space Marines (Dark Angels, White Scars, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists and Black Templars, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Salamanders, Raven Guard, and homebrew, and possibly the Angels of Death, Clan Rakuun, Sentinels of Terra, White Scars and Raven Guard supplements), Grey Knights and Deathwatch. Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels have been rolled into the main Space Marines section.

Imperium 2 contains Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers), Adeptus Mechanicus (Cult Mechanicus and Skitarii), Imperial Knights, Imperial Agents (Inquisition, Officio Assassinorum, Sisters of Battle) and Talons of the Emperor (Sisters of Silence and Adeptus Custodes)

Chaos contains Chaos Space Marines (possibly including Black Legion, Traitor Legions and Crimson Slaughter supplements) Chaos Daemons and Renegade Knights. Khorne Daemonkin is covered by having all said units in that book already in this book.

Xenos 1 contains* Craftworld Eldar (possibly including Iyanden supplement), Dark Eldar (possibly including Haemonculae Covens supplement), Harlequins and Ynnari, as well as Necrons.

Xenos 2 contains Tau Empire (and possible the Farsight Enclave supplement), Orks, Tyranids and Genestealer Cult.

*Xenos 1 is also cool as it contains all the unit rules you'll need to fight the War in Heaven!!!!

Adeptus Mec

**soulforged**

For a complete beginner in Warhammer 40.000 like me, the starting box looks amazing!

**Matt.Kingsley**

I wonder if we'll still be seeing the normal article and faction focus today with all this pre-order information?

**Requizen**

Daedalus81 wrote:
xttz wrote:
Previews:

Spoiler:

Ok so I presume flyers don't have to leave the table and return based on the wording for fly. This is awesome.

I wonder if 90 degree max pivot is gone for flyers, since you can't choose to fly off it doesn't make sense for them to get into a situation where they're forced into a corner and die.

**Eyjio**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:I wonder if we'll still be seeing the normal article and faction focus today with all this pre-order information?

I hope so. Maybe we won't see an article today, but I'm hoping today is finally the Necron article.

Requizen wrote:I wonder if 90 degree max pivot is gone for flyers, since you can't choose to fly off it doesn't make sense for them to get into a situation where they're forced into a corner and die.

I said it earlier but I'll say it again - there can't be a 90 pivot rule, because there's no "facing" to pivot; you already count as pointing whichever way you want.

**gungo**

Kanluwen wrote:
xttz wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

I was really hoping it would be a bespoke rule, as that would make Crisis Suits unique and interesting and open up the door for something like the Seraphim to get a similar rule without just making it so that units with "Fly" ignore the penalty for Falling Back.

Ah well...

To be fair, a Crisis Suit falling back is very different from a Jetbike falling back. Their movement speed will be far more limited; if the whole unit can't get more than 1" from an enemy unit they're stuck. Some clever positioning of transports nearby can do a lot to help there. Plus we've already seen special unit rules that let you prevent enemies from falling back at all, I have no doubt there will be more of those.

If I'm going to be honest, and try not to derail things further, a big reason why I was wanting it to be a bespoke rule?

To prevent the silliness of Riptides potentially being able to Fall Back and fire normally.

We don't have the full rules yet for everything, but one of my biggest concerns is things that didn't need help(Jetbikes, Riptides, FMCs) getting a pretty significant boost with a catch-all special benefit for Flying.
It seems like "Fly" is going to be a Big Deal from the outset.

To be fair we know nothing about the rules that actually make those units good.
For instance I doubt eldar jet bikes are the only jetbikes with a 3+ sv and i expect jink to be gone, bikes receiving 1 toughness also make no sense this edition, scatter lasers are a lot less scary with ap0. Fmc are also completely changed snapshots at fliers sounds gone instead it's likely just a -1 to hit modifier and some movement bonus with the fly keyword. There is also no toe in cover for flyers. The riptide seems better but we don't know it's rules or it's costs so it sounds just like a low hitpoint MC with some guns just like an eldar grav tank.

**JohnnyHell**

Requizen wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
xttz wrote:
Previews:

Spoiler:

Ok so I presume flyers don't have to leave the table and return based on the wording for fly. This is awesome.

I wonder if 90 degree max pivot is gone for flyers, since you can't choose to fly off it doesn't make sense for them to get into a situation where they're forced into a corner and die.

No need to wonder, as you can see the Movement page above already.

**Azazelx**

.

**Deadshot**

JohnnyHell wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
xttz wrote:
Previews:

Spoiler:

Ok so I presume flyers don't have to leave the table and return based on the wording for fly. This is awesome.

I wonder if 90 degree max pivot is gone for flyers, since you can't choose to fly off it doesn't make sense for them to get into a situation where they're forced into a corner and die.

No need to wonder, as you can see the Movement page above already.

That doesn't clear up flyers though. If flyers are still (somehow) restricted to that same limited turning, they will quickly go out of fashion as people learn that having a model that comes on for 1 turn then flies into oblivion is terrible.

**Crimson**

Da Butcha wrote:

I can't speak for anyone else, but here's the two reasons I'm hating on the jump dudes (and indeed, ALL of the Primaris Marines):

First, for the modeler and hobbyist: GW has been a company, for years, which has been amazingly friendly for the modeler and converter. SM are pretty much the paragon of that treatment. Bits work across models, etc. It's very collector-friendly and rewards a deep bits box. You can convert from one Chapter to another, use elements from one model to another, etc. The introduction of what seems to be a complete redesign of the range in a slightly different scale torpedoes this friendliness. Much of the current SM range will not be compatible with the new range, and much of the new range will not be compatible with the old range. While this doesn't hurt a new buyer that much, I think it will be bad for both the current 'long-term' hobbyist, and for the development of MORE long-term hobbyists. While people starting new games or new armies are quite happy to assemble 'out of the box', as people play longer and collect longer, they often want to do more customized and personalized models. Creating an entirely new and somewhat incompatible range for your bestselling line complicates that. Given that GW was able to release plastic Mark IV and Plastic Mark III and plastic Tartaros and Plastic Cataphracti armor, I'm not sure why it was impossible to design a Mark IX or Mark X armor which wasn't almost completely compatible with all the plastic stuff that has been put out.

Even your own quote helps support this point. "Chopping up a dude and reposing him" is a fine and time-honored activity for GW hobbyists. But making your core range less compatible with itself isn't helpful to that.

I have a whole army of fully converted space marines. Every dude is upscaled and otherwise converted in some manner. But I've been building and converting these basically same multipart marines since they were first released during the third edition (every kit after that has basically been a slight variation) and I'm ready for something new. These new kits look amazing, and I cant wait that I get to build and convert them. I cant remember when I last was this exited about space marines (probably when those 3rd ed multipart kits were released.)

Now, I'm a bit worried about the lack of variation, and I'm a tad sad that there seems to be very little of those little unique differences in these new kits that exist in the older kits. But I'm sure given time, when we will get new Primaris kits and chapter specific stuff, there will be loads of variation again. And meanwhile, some older marine parts remain compatible, I am currently going through my marine head and shoulderpad collection to see which I want to use with these new marines.

Second, for the development of the storyline: The introduction of a new sect of Marines which appear to be physically superior to all previous Astartes creates a kind of power imbalance. How 'heroic' are regular marines when Primaris marines are better than them? How elite are the Deathwatch if Primaris marines are bigger and stronger? Will the Deathwatch now preferentially recruit Primaris candidates? Are the Primaris physically superior to Grey Knights? Will the Grey Knights be supplanted by Primaris GK? How do the Primaris compare to Custodian Guard? Will the Custodes retire back to Terra now that Primaris marines are present? Was the threat to Terra reduced by the introduction of new Marines? Can the Primaris marines turn renegade? Will there be Chaos Renegade Primaris marines? How do Imperial heroes like Cassius feel about the Primaris? Will they be pleased with physically superior Marines in their midst? How will line Astartes regard serving alongside Primaris? How will the average Imperial Citizen feel? Will they be more relieved to see Primaris marines, or less pleased to see 'regular' Astartes?

"Oh, the Emperor didn't bless us as much as I hoped. The 'normal' Angels of Death are here. I had hoped for the bigger ones."

Again, as a storyline, Guilliman being revived and forcing the Imperial industry of war to roll out a new and improved Mark of Armor would be simple, decisive, and would not have entailed all these problematic elements that, in my opinion, will both HAVE to be dealt with in the storyline, and will also be a hindrance and/or distraction from what should have been a refreshing, engaging, and really impactful shift forward in the narrative. It may be realistic to have your principles dissolve into petty bickering on the eve of a major offensive, but it doesn't mean that it's an editorially good idea if it draws focus from the plot.

Oh sure, the fluff is stupid, no arguments here.

**ClockworkZion**

Azazelx wrote:
.
Having said that, there are lots of ways around paying local AU prices.

Selling your soul to Eldritch gods for a tax break seems like a bit of a losing deal for th Aussie and only really works once (unless you get into the habit of selling other people's souls).

More seriously, let's not get into pricing debates. It only makes the mods mad.

**Azazelx**

already covered

**ClockworkZion**

Deadshot wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
xttz wrote:
Previews:

Spoiler:

Ok so I presume flyers don't have to leave the table and return based on the wording for fly. This is awesome.

I wonder if 90 degree max pivot is gone for flyers, since you can't choose to fly off it doesn't make sense for them to get into a situation where they're forced into a corner and die.

No need to wonder, as you can see the Movement page above already.

That doesn't clear up flyers though. If flyers are still (somehow) restricted to that same limited turning, they will quickly go out of fashion as people learn that having a model that comes on for 1 turn then flies into oblivion is terrible.

Any model in any direction up to their max movemen stat is unclear how? It looks like for the sake if simplicity fliers work like skimmers.

**Mr Morden**

Deadshot wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
xttz wrote:
Previews:

Spoiler:

Ok so I presume flyers don't have to leave the table and return based on the wording for fly. This is awesome.

I wonder if 90 degree max pivot is gone for flyers, since you can't choose to fly off it doesn't make sense for them to get into a situation where they're forced into a corner and die.

No need to wonder, as you can see the Movement page above already.

That doesn't clear up flyers though. If flyers are still (somehow) restricted to that same limited turning, they will quickly go out of fashion as people learn that having a model that comes on for 1 turn then flies into oblivion is terrible.

From reading that looks like the only difference between flyers and other units in the move phase will be that they have to move a set minimum distance.

**Requizen**

JohnnyHell wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
xttz wrote:
Previews:

Spoiler:

Ok so I presume flyers don't have to leave the table and return based on the wording for fly. This is awesome.

I wonder if 90 degree max pivot is gone for flyers, since you can't choose to fly off it doesn't make sense for them to get into a situation where they're forced into a corner and die.

No need to wonder, as you can see the Movement page above already.

There's nothing preventing them from printing that rule on a Night Scythe or Eldar Hemlock though.

**Azazelx**

and again.

**Mr Morden**

Requizen wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
xttz wrote:
Previews:

Spoiler:

Ok so I presume flyers don't have to leave the table and return based on the wording for fly. This is awesome.

I wonder if 90 degree max pivot is gone for flyers, since you can't choose to fly off it doesn't make sense for them to get into a situation where they're forced into a corner and die.

No need to wonder, as you can see the Movement page above already.

There's nothing preventing them from printing that rule on a Night Scythe or Eldar Hemlock though.

True but just give them a low min distance and you don't need to bother. Simples

**changemod**

The average board around here has 3-4 bits of ruin terrain per 4*4 tile. I'm dreading having to gum up games trying to move around once perfectly navigable ruins because of that poorly thought out "walls are walls and not an abstraction for nebulous ruin terrain" rule.

**theharrower**

Azazelx wrote:
ruprecht wrote:
Eyjio wrote:
[So your complaint is that the core rules are cheaper, but if you add in the "codex" cost for 8th edition and not for any other editions, it's more expensive? Great logic there.

No, my complaint is that the supposedly "free rules" release of 40k would cost me over $300 on launch day just for rules. Great reading there.

No, the problem is that you expected every part of the rules for free, which based on both the existing AoS model which also has free core rules and unit profiles - and is not exactly hard to find information on and also the information that we'd already been given was not realistic or likely, so I'm going with wilful ignorance on your part.

Charging for some of the rules is a tad bait and switchy. Personally, I don't care they need to make money, but I can understand why some people are a bit miffed. Really though, you can't complain about the pricing on this. The amount of win included in the boxed set is insane. This is far better than past GW edition releases.

**Warhams-77**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Warhams-77 wrote:
There will also be a new 40k app soon after release - we dont have much info yet but it could be a better choice price-wise

Source?

Games Workshop at Adepticon

Let me dig out the posts. 15 minutes

**JohnnyHell**

Mr Morden wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
xttz wrote:
Previews:

Spoiler:

Ok so I presume flyers don't have to leave the table and return based on the wording for fly. This is awesome.

I wonder if 90 degree max pivot is gone for flyers, since you can't choose to fly off it doesn't make sense for them to get into a situation where they're forced into a corner and die.

No need to wonder, as you can see the Movement page above already.

That doesn't clear up flyers though. If flyers are still (somehow) restricted to that same limited turning, they will quickly go out of fashion as people learn that having a model that comes on for 1 turn then flies into oblivion is terrible.

From reading that looks like the only difference between flyers and other units in the move phase will be that they have to move a set minimum distance.

It does appear to be exactly that. In a 12-page ruleset how much more do you think they'll dedicate to Flyers' movement? That'll be it. Done.

**Deadshot**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
xttz wrote:
Previews:

Spoiler:

Ok so I presume flyers don't have to leave the table and return based on the wording for fly. This is awesome.

I wonder if 90 degree max pivot is gone for flyers, since you can't choose to fly off it doesn't make sense for them to get into a situation where they're forced into a corner and die.

No need to wonder, as you can see the Movement page above already.

That doesn't clear up flyers though. If flyers are still (somehow) restricted to that same limited turning, they will quickly go out of fashion as people learn that having a model that comes on for 1 turn then flies into oblivion is terrible.

Any model in any direction up to their max movemen stat is unclear how? It looks like for the sake if simplicity fliers work like skimmers.

Always exceptions to the rule. 90 degrees was an exception Flyers had to normal pivoting rules. It also made sense (how does a jet moving at 500+MPH turn on the spot without turning into VTOL mode and slowing way down and need to build speed up again). If that's as simple as it gets (Assume the flyer has VTOL pivoted or wheeled about) I'm fine with that, I'm just wondering whether FLyers will yet again be an exception to this normal pivoting rule.

Furthermore, if they ARE indeed able to turn as they please, how is any model going to move off the board and be destroyed? It would be different if a flyer could only turn a certain amount because you could be forced into a corner by bad foresight, but if they can just turn 180 and come back the way then there'll never be a situation where a model moves off on purpose.

**JohnnyHell**

theharrower wrote:
Azazelx wrote:
ruprecht wrote:
Eyjio wrote:
[So your complaint is that the core rules are cheaper, but if you add in the "codex" cost for 8th edition and not for any other editions, it's more expensive? Great logic there.

No, my complaint is that the supposedly "free rules" release of 40k would cost me over $300 on launch day just for rules. Great reading there.

No, the problem is that you expected every part of the rules for free, which based on both the existing AoS model which also has free core rules and unit profiles - and is not exactly hard to find information on and also the information that we'd already been given was not realistic or likely, so I'm going with wilful ignorance on your part.

Charging for some of the rules is a tad bait and switchy. Personally, I don't care they need to make money, but I can understand why some people are a bit miffed. Really though, you can't complain about the pricing on this. The amount of win included in the boxed set is insane. This is far better than past GW edition releases.

There's no bait and switch. They're doing exactly what they said they'd do. That the internet turned that into FREE ROOLZ ALL RULES FREE is not GW's problem. From the off they were clear that you'd have to pay for faction and unit rules, core rules were free.