Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 lindsay40k wrote:
^ seems highly unlikely, given that AP cuts through cover saves.

Mhmm, perhaps cover will just give Daemons a 5+ armour save rather than improve their invul. Makes sense but does mean that cover would be pretty useless for Daemons now. :/

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I play Word Bearers. Summoning now requires points. It wasn't even a "recursion" thing (such armies aren't good anyway) as much as an "attrition" thing. My army is functionally going to be unplayable now.

Way to go, GW. You managed to nerf one of the least plug-and-play Chaos armies out there. Got to sell those Death Guard and Rubrics somehow.

Did you only get into 40K during 7th edition or are you just exaggerating here?

3rd actually. Originally I had a Lost and the Damned army...which subsequently occupied the shelf come the Gav dex, the obsolescence of Codex: Eye of Terror, and all CSM Daemons being restricted to "Greater Daemon" and "Lesser Daemon", with everything else split up in another book, in an edition without an Ally system. So this would actually be the second time my Word Bearers become unplayable.

Fun huh?

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I play Word Bearers. Summoning now requires points. It wasn't even a "recursion" thing (such armies aren't good anyway) as much as an "attrition" thing. My army is functionally going to be unplayable now.

Way to go, GW. You managed to nerf one of the least plug-and-play Chaos armies out there. Got to sell those Death Guard and Rubrics somehow.

Did you only get into 40K during 7th edition or are you just exaggerating here?

3rd actually. Originally I had a Lost and the Damned army...which subsequently occupied the shelf come the Gav dex, the obsolescence of Codex: Eye of Terror, and all CSM Daemons being restricted to "Greater Daemon" and "Lesser Daemon", with everything else split up in another book, in an edition without an Ally system. So this would actually be the second time my Word Bearers become unplayable.

Fun huh?

God I forgot about "Lesser" and "Greater" daemon, the biggest fail of the split apart CSM dex.

Wait and see guys wait and see...

I think it's easy to confuse a playstyle which is intended to be thematic and a playstyle which is intended to be tactical. Summoning has its place in the lore and in the stories told by battlefields. Summoning still exists as a very powerful tactic that you can use and that works pretty much exactly like it does in the fluff (a cabal of sorcerers summoning an entire army of daemons). The fact is that even though summoning is completely thematic and part of the lore, as well as a rules-supported tactic in the core rules of the game, that doesn't entitle you to the right of using it in competitive play. You have an army built to play thematically, and that theme is very counter-productive to competitive balance.

Some of the most creative and fantastic armies I've ever seen are incompatible competitively (a haunted forest Sylvaneth army [trees and ghosts]). That doesn't mean your army isn't an accomplishment. It just means that you can't use its fullest potential in a competitive game. Which makes sense. Competitive play is supposed to be two even armies on an even playing field. Uncapped summoning is not an even playing field. Isn't one of the biggest complaints about 7th that there are some armies with such heavy-handed force multipliers that they are literally bringing 25% extra points to the table?

I'm personally super excited. My Chaos terminators are going to be ripping the throat out of my enemies' armies. Combi-weapons are badass.

PLEASE Plague Marines with same stats as the Primaris marines, or a bit weaker/more expensive with FNP!!

Unlikely.

The 'Marines are Best, unless they are Chaos' bias is too strong.

Judging by past experience they will be both worse and more expensive.

 Ascalam wrote:
Unlikely.

The 'Marines are Best, unless they are Chaos' bias is too strong.

Judging by past experience they will be both worse and more expensive.

I am not worried about this, I have been chaos since I started. Even if they are a bit worse, I more meant I hope cult troops are the same to Primaris Marines, as normal CSM are to old Space Marines.

Traitor legions showed us how similar CSM are to Plague Marines, the difference in ability and points to reflect should be of a greater distance between the two.

I play many, many things, and I'm excited for 8th ed. Mostly, I don't want to lose my 'faster yet less deadly' Crimson Slaughter possessed tide of doom. Expensive, doesn't work all the time but damn when it does, it does

Kurnost wrote:
I play many, many things, and I'm excited for 8th ed. Mostly, I don't want to lose my 'faster yet less deadly' Crimson Slaughter possessed tide of doom. Expensive, doesn't work all the time but damn when it does, it does

^ This.

I started WH40K with Crimson Slaughter and i really hope the Red Tide of Voices isn't going to be discontinued. Also, there are some units i want to see more / at all on the table in the 'near' future of 8th.
Especially Defilers, Mutilators & Warp Talons. I'm probably the only player in my FLGS & Warhammer Store who plays Mutilators & Defilers - especially the Defiler is probably the Chaos Poster Child yet
i've never seen another Chaos player buy / play them unless they're into converting which is - quite honestly - sad.

I own a defiler but their rules are just horribly outdated.

 mrhappyface wrote:
There is already a thread discussing this but I thought I might update the Chaos Thread anyway:

Loving the new Rubrics by the way! That 2+ against single damage weapons and those nasty as hell flamers might make Rubrics quite tasty.

Also nice to see that Smite will be toned down for none character psychers, thought the Horror spam would be awful. D:

Here is the thing they are much more durable against small arms fire, but they are much much more vulnerable to Heavy Weapons. So now 4 Lascannons can wipe the squad out in a single turn from 48" away.

So rather then dying quickly when they get within shooting range they will now die before they ever get within range since they have a slow movement.

So rather then dying quickly when they get within shooting range they will now die before they ever get within range since they have a slow movement.

...Why are you footslogging them instead of putting them in rhinos?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Here is the thing they are much more durable against small arms fire, but they are much much more vulnerable to Heavy Weapons. So now 4 Lascannons can wipe the squad out in a single turn from 48" away.

So rather then dying quickly when they get within shooting range they will now die before they ever get within range since they have a slow movement.

Could you show your maths for 4 lascannons wiping a squad in one turn?

Also, as the lizard said: why would you footslog?

4 lascannons will kill 4 models at most and that's not considerinng to hit and to wound or their invulnerable save.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So rather then dying quickly when they get within shooting range they will now die before they ever get within range since they have a slow movement.

...Why are you footslogging them instead of putting them in rhinos?

Mostly because having them not in rhinos is going to be better then bringing a Rhino, which will probably not get any save and will increase the cost of an already expensive unit. Not to mention if they are in a Rhino and move outside the range of the character "aura" range then you basically paid for a character to do nothing.

mrhappyface wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Here is the thing they are much more durable against small arms fire, but they are much much more vulnerable to Heavy Weapons. So now 4 Lascannons can wipe the squad out in a single turn from 48" away.

So rather then dying quickly when they get within shooting range they will now die before they ever get within range since they have a slow movement.

Could you show your maths for 4 Lascannons wiping a squad in one turn?

Also, as the lizard said: why would you footslog?

Math: assuming MEQ 4*.66*.825*3*.66 (shots*hit ratio*average wound*average damage*non save ratio)= 4.31
Now at this point your probably thinking yeah well there are 5 of them, which is right except their Ld 8-4 = 4 morale phase comes around pick up 2 dice and roll 4 or less, you have about a 13% chance of keeping 1 guy.

If they are in vehicles then all you have done is increase costs, the range on Lascannons is 48" if you mount them they move up 12" rhino gets blown up you move 6" your now 6" out of range and still die.

Roknar wrote:4 lascannons will kill 4 models at most and that's not considerinng to hit and to wound or their invulnerable save.

Lascannons are -3 ap and do D6 damage the can at most kill 24 wounds worth of models.

Mostly because having them not in rhinos is going to be better then bringing a Rhino, which will probably not get any save and will increase the cost of an already expensive unit. Not to mention if they are in a Rhino and move outside the range of the character "aura" range then you basically paid for a character to do nothing.

Why do you think that the Rhino won't get any save at all? And what character are we talking about here given that we only know of the Rubrics statline?

If they are in vehicles then all you have done is increase costs, the range on Lascannons is 48" if you mount them they move up 12" rhino gets blown up you move 6" your now 6" out of range and still die.

Which is still 12" more movement then they'd get normally, and would protect them from four lascannon blasts.

Lascannons are -3 ap and do D6 damage the can at most kill 24 wounds worth of models.

And.. Well yes but we are talking about Rubrics right? The 1W rubrics?

Damage from lascanons do not spill over. So its 4*.66*.66 so 1.47 dead. I'm sure there's more advanced math to figure out exactly what chances are for saving multiple wounds are rough but good chances you're just going to lose to Marines

I'm kinda hoping CSM ones back to being the ultimate in custom options in wargear/special/heavy weapons to represent their looser structure compared to codex compliant Loyalists. A heavy or special at 5 man two at 10. That sort of thing.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Damage from lascanons do not spill over. So its 4*.66*.66 so 1.47 dead. I'm sure there's more advanced math to figure out exactly what chances are for saving multiple wounds are rough but good chances you're just going to lose to Marines

In AoS wounds spill over so some think in 8th it will also

Ah, so multiple damage weapons don't 'lance' like in Sigmar, then? That's a relief, else high ROF weapons would have been somewhat redendant.

Saving multiple wounds: basically a hitting, wounding Lascannon shot vs 5++ is inflicting D6 x 0.67 W - or rather, D6 W each of which has a 0.33 chance of being discounted.

The six results and their rounded off chances of a 1W model *not* making *all* their 5++ saves:

0.66
0.89
0.96
0.99
1
1

Average of the above = chances of a Rubric not getting up from a wounding Lascannon hit: 91.67%

Astartes Lascannon hit rate: 66.67%

Lascannon wound rate vs T4: 83.33%

Product of the above three = Astartes Lascannon kill rate vs Rubricae: 50.92%

Devastators with Lascannons basically drop 2 Rubricae per turn, with 1/6 chance of another one crumbling from Morale if no other casualties add to their Battleshock.

Edit: this assumes you can't stack regular and invulnerable saves.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Mostly because having them not in rhinos is going to be better then bringing a Rhino, which will probably not get any save and will increase the cost of an already expensive unit. Not to mention if they are in a Rhino and move outside the range of the character "aura" range then you basically paid for a character to do nothing.

Why do you think that the Rhino won't get any save at all? And what character are we talking about here given that we only know of the Rubrics statline?

If they are in vehicles then all you have done is increase costs, the range on Lascannons is 48" if you mount them they move up 12" rhino gets blown up you move 6" your now 6" out of range and still die.

Which is still 12" more movement then they'd get normally, and would protect them from four lascannon blasts.

Lascannons are -3 ap and do D6 damage the can at most kill 24 wounds worth of models.

And.. Well yes but we are talking about Rubrics right? The 1W rubrics?

I dont think the rhino will have a very good save it might get a 3+ but if it has something that good it will end up having a lower wound count. The -3 AP will make it so that any save it does get is woefully inefficent. Its still a Rhino and it will still probably die in the first or second round.

Being closer and doing no damage dosent change the fact that you did no damage.

The charcter dosent matter only the fact that you will probably have to mount them on something increasing your costs.

The Lascannon thing wasnt for you it was for Roknar who said that you could only get max 4 kills with 4 Lascannons.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do any of you guys have something i can read that says the wounds wouldnt spill over?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind i found it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So there is no spill over which is good but now that simply changes the ideal weapon to something like the auto cannon which will probably have -1 AP and do either 1d3 damage or 2 damage, and have 2 shots.

The thing im pointing out here is that before Rubrics could easily weather heavy weapons were kinda slow and got chewed up all the same by small arms. Now they are still slow have the same range and less vulnurable to small arms but are more vulnurable to heavy weapons. This means ypur going to lose a lot more before they get to do anything. Yet there cost is going to be about the same. About 60% more then what a Tac Squad costs.

They only kill four models since wounds don't spill over iirc. So 24 "damage" is still only 4 VERY dead rubrics lol. I wasn't implying they wouldn't fear a lascannon, just that it's not as bad as taking a ton of wounds. If lascannons could do that there would be very little reason to take other guns. They would do as much damage as flamers but at five times the range with a higher AP mod XD.

Yeah still trying to adjust to this new system. The problem i see with this setup is that is can get super complicated when firing muti damage weapons at single wound models.

It's pretty much how wounds from destroyer work currently. Hit, wound, save and then you may or may not be in extra trouble if you have more wounds. Single wound models simply die the same as when taking a wound from any other weapon since they only have one wound to loose. rolling for the extra wounds is purely academic in those cases.

I would say a rhino would still be worth taking because in 8th it's probably T6 10W and has a 3+ save, so versus 4 lascannons:
4*2/3*2/3*5/6 *3= 120/27 = 4W (might be wrong, dis it in my head)
So, since we don't know the rhino's stats, it's a bit early to make assumption.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Variation would be nice but it would just be throwing all those bloated rules back into a system trying to cleanse itself of bloated rules, so flat stat increases might be better overall. Maybe nurgle marines can switch to being wound-base tanking while toughness/armor based tanking can be given to the Rubricae.

There would be no bloat since the fluff indicating why they got a specific thing would be contained on their Warscroll. All you really see is an enhanced Stat and a short blurb describing why they have it. BAM, what?! No more USR.

 mrhappyface wrote:
I would say a rhino would still be worth taking because in 8th it's probably T6 10W and has a 3+ save, so versus 4 lascannons:
4*2/3*2/3*5/6 *3= 120/27 = 4W (might be wrong, dis it in my head)
So, since we don't know the rhino's stats, it's a bit early to make assumption.

You've got the math mostly right there except the average score of D6 W is 3.5, leaving a 10 W Rhino with 4.71W - probably enough to slow it down. I doubt a Rhino will be 10W, though - aren't we seeing 3 HP models translate to around 8W? I'd certainly expect a dedicated anti-tank devastator squad to cripple any light transport it finds in the open.

That said, do we know if saves come in before or after wound multiplication? They didn't in 2ed, and whilst very rare in 3ed onwards they usually come in on "unsaved wounds". Also, the Rhino is almost certain to be taking cover or popping smoke when the Devastators make their first volley.

Are we really at the point of complaining that lascannons will hammer infantry? Even sorcerous automaton infantry?
If I take Rubricae and my opponent is dense enough to waste 4 lascannons (or any dedicated heavy weapon actually) on my Rubricae, then I lose them. Then *insert random nasty here* that he didn't target hammers him

With their slow Movement matching terminators, Rubrics could provide a damned useful footslogging shield for more dangerous, expensive units

 lindsay40k wrote:


The six results and their rounded off chances of a 1W model *not* making *all* their 5++ saves:

0.66
0.89
0.96
0.99
1
1

I didn't quite get what that is. But just in case. You roll for damage after suffering a wound.